Aquarion EVOL - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll

[ZetaAEUG]

Originally Posted by bastek66

This anime won't end well. Mark my words, we all will be raging.

I don't think that people will be raging, as much as they will be disappointed. My expectations for evol are much lower than they were from eps 1-12 or so, and even then I'm disappointed by recent developments in this.

Amata and Mikono have been stagnant, I expected them, as flawed lead characters from the beginning to grow stronger as a couple and individually dealing with their own issues but was disappointed. With only 5 episodes to go, character development of this sort will feel rushed and unnatural.

Kagura also suffers in the same way. He's still the same guy he was at the start, one track mind after his smelly wench. Several times he's been tormented by mykage but we've never seen evidence of him actually thinking of not being a pawn in mykage's schemes.

Zessica was okay at first, but once the writers had a chance to flesh her out they ruined her. Which leads me to believe that the only characters people will genuinely like at the end of EVOL are those that the writers simply didn't have enough time to develop at all or those who died early. Like jin and shrade.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by bastek66

This anime won't end well. Mark my words, we all will be raging.

Maybe. Probably. But I still hope for a good ending. There are chances that they will just blow us in the end... an ending so good you'll mark it as best ending.

[Vena]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

IIRC it was you who discussed this last time, no?

I don't remember to be honest, maybe?

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

But I seriously don't understand why what Amata said doesn't make sense for people. Kagura loves Sylphie. Amata loves Mikono. It's not a question of whether they're in fact destined or not. For all we (and Amata) know, Kagura is the reincarnation of Apollon and Mikono is the reincarnation of Sylphie. Since Apollon and Sylphie belong together by destiny, Kagura and Mikono belong together by destiny. But Mikono is not "Sylphie" she's also Mikono, and Mikono is whom Amata loves, and he doesn't want to let Kagura take her just because they're destined to be together as their past lives. Amata is treating Kagura as the separate person that he is (despite his origins - really, at this point they're more like brothers, especially given their physical differences: Kagura is taller, has a similar but still different face, hair&eye color, etc).

Amata fighting for Mikono because he likes her for who she is and not who she was as per Kagura's reason is fine and dandy, but it doesn't really lend itself to or follow from "fighting destiny" that previous episodes were pushing (and that was often being pushed as "Look Amata will save Mikono from her destined partner!"). They are different things. Destiny here is as much for Amata as it is for Kagura, they are both destined to be with Mikono, and it hardly matters who wins because in either case its destiny fulfilled. They have both met under very *destined* circumstances. They have both claimed to have been destined to meet and/or be together. They have both been backdropped by their past live's connection when being with Mikono. There's no fight against destiny, there's a fight over who's ideal for why they should end up together is better.

I would have no problem with the current development if (Amata and Kagura weren't the same person, for starters; its not like Sirius suddenly stopped being Celianne just because he was male and Sylvia was the love interest. They are a split soul and no matter how you split Amata/Kagura, they all still tie back to Apollonius & Celianne): "Let's fight fate, guys!" hadn't been slammed in our faces time and again in previous episodes (Amata, for pete's sake, even does this shpeel when he sees Sylvia in Mikono). No destiny is being fought, just ideals. As I said, destiny is not one person fighting his shadow over ending up with the girl he was always meant to end up with over conflicting ideals as to why they need to end up together. Fighting destiny is when you say screw you, and go off with some other person and throw off destiny entirely.

Maybe I've missed something or maybe the writers have just not made this very convincing.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

(And tbh I'll believe that Zessica is fighting fate when she doesn't turn out to be the reincarnation of someone... and when she'll actually fight fate.)

Mykage's interruption last episode wasn't clear enough about her going off script?

[Arya]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

[...] But currently it seems that Kagura is the actual "reincarnation" part of Amata's soul. If I were to speculate, I'd say "Apollon" was detached from Amata and made into Kagura, leaving Amata with only the physical attributes (the wings) but none of the memories. Essentially a "normal" person except for the wings.

That's what I got from the Amata Kagura fighting/talking scene, even if I didn't get everything they were saying. I would be glad if that will be the case instead of a good/bad split.
So, I don't think they will merge together in the end for this reason. They will probably die, yes, but as single entities

Anyways I enjoyed the episode, but tbh I didn't expect Amata being so coldhearted with Zessica. I mean, I understand that he faced many event one after another, but well, the writers seem to be busy making him getting hated.
I'm glad that I don't care about Zessica so I can still enjoy the show. Don't get me wrong, it's not that I dislike her, but her path is too much exaggerated to the point that I can't feel it.

Ah, obviously it is crystal clear that Mikono won't suffer of the Altar disease, will she?

[tsunade666]

why do I feel like the ending will be a merge of altair and vega with the sacrifice of Mikono. At least in the end she will be useful with her ability to connect. Both worlds are dying to begin with in a way that the other world needs support of Aquarion and the other has the curse of Eve.

[MUAHAHAHAHAHA]

I am a devoted follower of Aquarion Evol up to Jin's death, whose death I mourn and also think it adds a certain depth to the show. But from there....it just goes downhill. Amata and Mikono are not bad characters, but really, they are dull, and to a certain extent, one-dimensional characters. I especially dislike how they mess up Zessica's character. It's a shame that she is never given the chance to shine. Initially, she's your typical cheerful and confident heroine. Then she falls in love with Amata and this is where her character starts to downgrade. She experiences jealousy and insecurity, and these two things would have been excellent to further develop her character. At one point, I fancied myself that she might go to the dark side but no, she sticks with the group and instead of improving, she becomes more depressed, wears the hideous dress and finally sacrifices herself for an ungrateful dude. Never have I felt such a pity for a character. I am sad that her character is trolled hard by the writer. After giving up on the main characters, I find myself rooting for secondary characters like Shrade and Andy. Instead of dedicating time to Mykage trolling about or Fudo with his donut philosophy week after week, I truly wish that the characters could be developed more. How about Donar? Crea? Suomi? Izumo? It would have been interesting to see some spark between Donar and Suomi, and Crea actually doing something rather than being Fudo's permanent loli toy.

With this episode, I am not going to bother expecting solid plot in future episodes, I am just going to stick with this for the mere reason of watching the conclusion.

[Maximillionus]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

I'm not saying everything is made crystal clear here, as usual with Evol - no-one even stopped to think about the implications of Kagura and Amata being one in a way, though I suppose it makes sense given that Kagura didn't really give anyone time to stop and think about it. But currently it seems that Kagura is the actual "reincarnation" part of Amata's soul. If I were to speculate, I'd say "Apollon" was detached from Amata and made into Kagura, leaving Amata with only the physical attributes (the wings) but none of the memories. Essentially a "normal" person except for the wings.

I have to disagree. The situation is strangely ironic in the sense Kagura has accused twice of Amata not being alive. In reality he shouldn't/wouldn't be alive if it weren't for mykage. I hate when good series do this and split someone from the main character. The only thing different here is that they don't look the same. Kagura can't be just the reincarntion part, it would have to be both of them or it wouldn't work. I think the split was pretty even in who got what. Kagura doesn't have all the memories. The true reincarnation has the memories of Aqaurion as well. And last I checked Amata has those Memories as demonstrated in episode 2 and on. Same was true for apollo in the last series. Im not going to take into account height because based off apllonius and apollo that fact is not true and hair colors and eye colors match so Amata got the hair and Kagura the eyes. Kagura has "what appears to be memories of being apollo" while amata has the memories of Aquarion. Amata has wings and kagura has wolf form-ish although both of these were not present in apollo so there not important ether. They sound pretty split to me. But this premise is based off if there following the last series.

I think a good ending would be Amata killing Kagura and absorbing him back into his soul and saving the world. I think this whole laybrinth of lies and deception from Mykage will backfire on him, because in reality. He's the one trying to destroy everything and go against fate. It would be Ironic if Alicia and not mikono will help amata and kagura join together. But I can see Alica doing that role, I mean she cant sleep the rest of the god damn series in there? Also would Alicia recognize Kagura as being apart of Amata?

[Korps!]

"Mikono-san! MIKONO-SAN!! MIKONO-SAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!"

Amata Sora, Aquarion EVOL.

After 22 episodes and a lot of crap Guilty Crown ended, then its cast moved to another project.

After 22 episodes and even more crap than GC, Aquarion EVOL goes on...

I really enjoy this one "oh Zessica! U alive? lol!" it reminded me of how they resolve C.C.'s amnesia in Code Geass R2 : We. Don't. Give. A. Damn.

Originally Posted by bastek66
This anime won't end well.

Best post ever on this board.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Vena

Destiny here is as much for Amata as it is for Kagura, they are both destined to be with Mikono, and it hardly matters who wins because in either case its destiny fulfilled.

No, not necessarily. Again, we don't know the full details, but what we do know is that the destiny is for Apollon and Sylphie (let's just call them that). Amata believes he is not Apollon (for all he knows he isn't; for all we know he may or may not be). Mikono is the reincarnation of Sylphie, Kagura is the reincarnation of Apollon. This is the basis on which Kagura lays his claim to Sylphie aka Mikono. And Amata says screw your legends and destinies. This is what this scene is about. It's not about Amata ~defeating fate~ or whatever, it's about him a) establishing himself as Kagura's complete opposite (and if it wasn't completely obvious Fudou and Mykage babble about that some more later), b) declaring that he doesn't give a flying damn about who is fated with whom, his feelings don't depend on the past. It was about this, nothing more, nothing less.

Originally Posted by Vena

They have both been backdropped by their past live's connection when being with Mikono.

Were they? Kagura was, iirc Amata wasn't (I just rewatched the Mikage-kisses-Zessica scene and the Apollon in the mirror shards is obviously Kagura: firetruck-red hair, yellow eyes. Even Zessica doesn't notice any difference.)

Originally Posted by Vena

its not like Sirius suddenly stopped being Celianne just because he was male and Sylvia was the love interest.

Actually, he totally stopped being Celiane. ^^;; Maybe not technically, but as far as the plot was concerned him being Celiane was important for that one moment of revelation which included a sentence explaining that the Celiane memories made him believe he was the Wings of the Sun. After that he pretty much went back to the regular Sirius, he even started fighting Apollo.

Originally Posted by Vena

Maybe I've missed something or maybe the writers have just not made this very convincing.

Well, as far as I'm concerned the scene was pretty clear - and since everything else is still muddy I'll just continue being in the "see how it all turns out" camp. And if they don't elaborate on this, well - this wouldn't be the first thing that is not well-developed or convincing in this series. (I think at this point it's pretty much established that the writing in this show is generally pretty bad, and as with Genesis, it's main modus operandi is "don't think, feel!" - and well, I'm one of the very few people who had positive feelings about this ep.)

Mykage is the key to everything. I think in the next episode we'll learn who he is and what the hell he wants. Until that... speculations, speculations.

Originally Posted by Vena

Mykage's interruption last episode wasn't clear enough about her going off script?

To be honest, no.

>Maximillionus
But those are not memories. That's pretty much the key, IMO. Amata has the wings, and has stuff lurking very, very deep in his subconscious, but it's stuff he can't access (remember the memory scan in ep whatever... 3? 4?) He has no idea why he knows what to do in Aquarion; when he sees Kagura he has a feeling he knows him from somewhere but doesn't know where or how. Also, all this time he's been connected to Aquarion and not Apollon (and yes, yes, Wings of the Sun and Apollonius and all, but with 3 Aquarions running around I won't even start speculating what Amata's connection to Aquarion even means).

[Vena]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

No, not necessarily. Again, we don't know the full details, but what we do know is that the destiny is for Apollon and Sylphie (let's just call them that). Amata believes he is not Apollon (for all he knows he isn't; for all we know he may or may not be). Mikono is the reincarnation of Sylphie, Kagura is the reincarnation of Apollon. This is the basis on which Kagura lays his claim to Sylphie aka Mikono. And Amata says screw your legends and destinies. This is what this scene is about. It's not about Amata ~defeating fate~ or whatever, it's about him a) establishing himself as Kagura's complete opposite (and if it wasn't completely obvious Fudou and Mykage babble about that some more later), b) declaring that he doesn't give a flying damn about who is fated with whom, his feelings don't depend on the past. It was about this, nothing more, nothing less.

But Kagura is not the reincarnation of Apollo. He was never born, he came off of Amata. If he is Apollo, Amata is Apollo. Mykage does not differentiate them as "Apollo" and "That other kid", he calls Kagura, very specifically, Dark Amata. The rest of it is very clearly established as being mind-fucked by Mykage. The only thing Kagura remember was smell, everything else was brainwashed into his head. Apollon, Sylphie, all of these incorrect terms are very obviously not Kagura's because they are wrong, if they were genuinely his they'd be right.

As for the rest, thats all fine and dandy, like I said, but its missing the point of previous plot points in fighting fate. No fate is being fought. It may be getting disregarded as the *reason* but its not being fought by either of them. Like I said, its a conflict of *why* not *how*. He's not saying screw anything either because he himself has espoused the same bullshit as Kagura about having been fated to meet with Mikono.

The flow is awful, the fact that Kagura and Amata are the same person is what really makes the claim hard to swallow. That's all there really is to it. I have nothing against what he said, in fact it would be a great line for a scene where people were actually fighting destiny, as it stands, though, I find it... underwhelming? There's no real weight to it as I've said before. Yes, great, you like the girl because of who she is but it would certainly mean a lot more if you weren't, (a.) fighting your shadow, (b.) not destined to end up with her anyway (whether its Apollo-Sylvia, or Apollonius-Celianne). Maybe in a few episodes it will turn out that Amata is somehow no one at all despite being someone when he was born but I'd be really hard pressed to believe any such development.

I mean, I found the whole episode silly. The scenes and character flow was off the wall all over the place. Mikono literally goes from shouting/crying about how Amata and Kagura should stop fighting, while with Fudo where neither can hear her. To, after going to where they are and now able to be heard, says not a word. The whole fight between Kagura and Amata is framed on a misconception on what Kagura means, and Mikono doesn't say a word to clear it up. (The whole fate thing, but we'll that for a later time as we're never going to agree.) Amata, for some strange reason, tries to fight Kagura, who'd been passive until that moment, because the latter said that the only thing he remembered was Mikono's smell. Many character actions this episode just didn't make any sense to me. Why does Mykage play an active role in fucking with the cast, while Fudo just watches? What's the point of dragging Zessica through more mud?

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Were they? Kagura was, iirc Amata wasn't (I just rewatched the Mikage-kisses-Zessica scene and the Apollon in the mirror shards is obviously Kagura: firetruck-red hair, yellow eyes. Even Zessica doesn't notice any difference.)

The movie? Episode 12?

The mirror is very clearly Amagura. Look at the hair form, its Amata's.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Actually, he totally stopped being Celiane. ^^;; Maybe not technically, but as far as the plot was concerned him being Celiane was important for that one moment of revelation which included a sentence explaining that the Celiane memories made him believe he was the Wings of the Sun. After that he pretty much went back to the regular Sirius, he even started fighting Apollo.

He was still Celianne, he just had no attraction to Apollo, and *that one moment* was a pretty big reveal on his character.

[mayumi]

Originally Posted by bastek66
This anime won't end well.

Amata, Mikono and Kagura's death is the only thing that will satisfy me and I would call it a good ending. BUt ofcourse I am sure Zessica will sacrifise herself so Amata and Mikono can live and have a happy life instead and Amata will go "Thankx, That girl with green hair whose name I forgot"

[GoldenLand]

Spoiler:

I think what's going on would be better if Amata and Kagura aren't just a light-dark split but Apollo's memories/characteristics have been given more strongly to Kagura. As that would make less of a mockery of the new legend/fighting fate theme. But there's still not a lot of proof of it. Kagura looks pretty damn brainwashed. Except that I doubt Mikono's smell could have been brainwashed into him...

Originally Posted by ZetaAEUG

You know what? I can be openminded too. Maybe Mikono LET herself be kidnapped so she can give kagura that apology that she's been talking about for so long.

Honestly, it would be better in a way if she had let herself be kidnapped so that she could give an apology. At least that would have been an active decision rather than being reduced to a damsel in distress being toted about by the plot. She'd been showing so much character development before then...I'd been assuming she would be able to stand up to Kagura better by now. But no.

Originally Posted by bastek66

Amata to Mikono: "I love Mikono for who she is"
Amata to Zessica"Oh, you're alive Zessica"

Ouch. He doesn't have to say "I love you Zessica!" but he should be saying "You're alive! Are you okay? Thanks for saving me."

Originally Posted by Zuul

People were not expecting him to fall in love just be a little sad and concerned about her death.
She was supposed to be a teammate and a friend. One who saved his life twice.
And he didn't mourn her at all.

Ungrateful bastard.

Zessica can do a lot better than him, seriously. In previous episodes he treated her okay despite his lack of attraction to her, and made sure to turn her down respectfully.

But this? Over her nearly dying for him? This is not cool. I'll have to wait til it's seen in context, but it doesn't sound good.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

But first and foremost... Amata... Kagura... guys, you're in a super robot show. If you want to fight GET INTO A FREAKING ROBOT. Seriously, Shrade makes a better super robot hero than you two. When he fights it resounds in the galaxy! ...or something.

...

SHRADE! I suppose he will bite it in the next ep? Or will he get to live some more? The ultimate lulz would be Shrade surviving the series, but I'm pretty sure he won't. :/ The scene between Shrade & Crea was pretty touching.

Shrade. He should definitely live just to troll everyone. At least he knows what genre show he's in.

[Misslaly]

Amata is going to make me drop Aquarion

[Destined_Fate]

Darn, it seems my worst case scenerio was right about how Amata and Mikono would be treated in this episode. I was hopeing they would have at least pushed some growth down their throats, instead they've regressed back to their early episode selves. C'mon, are they even trying to make Mikono likeable or are they just trying to make Amata extremely unlikeable so they're on even ground?

Originally Posted by Korps!

"Mikono-san! MIKONO-SAN!! MIKONO-SAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!"

Amata Sora, Aquarion EVOL.

After 22 episodes and a lot of crap Guilty Crown ended, then its cast moved to another project.

After 22 episodes and even more crap than GC, Aquarion EVOL goes on...

I really enjoy this one "oh Zessica! U alive? lol!" it reminded me of how they resolve C.C.'s amnesia in Code Geass R2 : We. Don't. Give. A. Damn.



Best post ever on this board.

Actually a lot of people seem to be giving a damn since Amata is being hated on very harshly for saying something cold like that to Zessica considering that she literally almost died for his sake. As for C.C.... I really didn't care but I'm not much of a C.C. fan so I can't comment on that.

[Maximillionus]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

>Maximillionus
But those are not memories. That's pretty much the key, IMO. Amata has the wings, and has stuff lurking very, very deep in his subconscious, but it's stuff he can't access (remember the memory scan in ep whatever... 3? 4?) He has no idea why he knows what to do in Aquarion; when he sees Kagura he has a feeling he knows him from somewhere but doesn't know where or how. Also, all this time he's been connected to Aquarion and not Apollon (and yes, yes, Wings of the Sun and Apollonius and all, but with 3 Aquarions running around I won't even start speculating what Amata's connection to Aquarion even means).

Wrong those are memories, those he cannot remember till he ether has them awaken within him or someone else unlocks them from him. I.E. the feather from maybe apollonius. This is almost the same case Apollo had in the last series. He couldn't explain his familiarity with aquarion but still knew about it. Kagura has no idea what Aquarion is and like the rest of the cast, he just calls it the machine angel. Zen Fudo knows Amata is the Reincarnation of Apollo like he knew 12,000 years ago with apollo. Kagura cannot be a true reincarnation because of what venna said in the post above and because he doesn't know about Aquarion. Just because the memory scan couldn't dig deeper into Amata's mind just proves more that he is the reincarnation of apollo.

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by Maximillionus

Wrong those are memories, those he cannot remember till he ether has them awaken within him or someone else unlocks them from him. I.E. the feather from maybe apollonius. This is almost the same case Apollo had in the last series. He couldn't explain his familiarity with aquarion but still knew about it. Kagura has no idea what Aquarion is and like the rest of the cast, he just calls it the machine angel. Zen Fudo knows Amata is the Reincarnation of Apollo like he knew 12,000 years ago with apollo. Kagura cannot be a true reincarnation because of what venna said in the post above and because he doesn't know about Aquarion. Just because the memory scan couldn't dig deeper into Amata's mind just proves more that he is the reincarnation of apollo.

Which really hurts the theme they've been pushing if he's actually going to get with Mikono. I think they may have just written themselves into a corner and suddenly remembered that they're shipping Mikono as the female lead and not Zessica or Mix and that Amata is supposed to be the lead not Andy, Kagura, or Shrade.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Maximillionus

Wrong those are memories, those he cannot remember till he ether has them awaken within him or someone else unlocks them from him. I.E. the feather from maybe apollonius. This is almost the same case Apollo had in the last series. He couldn't explain his familiarity with aquarion but still knew about it. Kagura has no idea what Aquarion is and like the rest of the cast, he just calls it the machine angel. Zen Fudo knows Amata is the Reincarnation of Apollo like he knew 12,000 years ago with apollo. Kagura cannot be a true reincarnation because of what venna said in the post above and because he doesn't know about Aquarion. Just because the memory scan couldn't dig deeper into Amata's mind just proves more that he is the reincarnation of apollo.

There is a sense of irony here, in that Kagura was created from Amata just so that he could be the embodiment of Apollo/Apollonius, however, Kagura is a "failed" in the sense that he doesn't have any of the memories from the two previous past lives, and instead had to have Mykage insert fake memories into his mind and generally control him just to make it him believe that he and Mikono are reincarnated lovers (when in a sense they are and yet they aren't).

This is the true problem with Kagura's character in that ultimately the "fate" that he claims connects him to Mikono is a false one, created by being with a ntr loving feather bastard with an acute case of chaotic selfish, and a little dash of god complex. In that way one can say that Kagura's love for Mikono is ultimately superficial and in a sense fake, because a good portion of it comes from Mykage's brainwashing.

[Zaresh]

You people know that

Spoiler for episode 22:

Amata's words to Zessica were more in the line of "I thought you were dead, thanks god!" than "Oh, so you are alive after all. Cool". It's just that writers are really, really bad and lack the hability to handle interaction between characters across the flow of scenes.

Don't you?

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

There is a sense of irony here, in that Kagura was created from Amata just so that he could be the embodiment of Apollo/Apollonius, however, Kagura is a "failed" in the sense that he doesn't have any of the memories from the two previous past lives, and instead had to have Mykage insert fake memories into his mind and generally control him just to make it him believe that he and Mikono are reincarnated lovers (when in a sense they are and yet they aren't).

This is the true problem with Kagura's character in that ultimately the "fate" that he claims connects him to Mikono is a false one, created by being with a ntr loving feather bastard with an acute case of chaotic selfish, and a little dash of god complex. In that way one can say that Kagura's love for Mikono is ultimately superficial and in a sense fake, because a good portion of it comes from Mykage's brainwashing.

Yet if Kagura, being a fake, gets with Mikono at least he would technically be fighting fate and destiny with more legitamency than say Amata who's connection to Mikono is based purely on destiny and fate which goes against the theme EVOL has been pushing lately.

[mayumi]

Originally Posted by Zaresh

You people know that

Spoiler for episode 22:

Amata's words to Zessica were more in the line of "I thought you were dead, thanks god!" than "Oh, so you are alive after all. Cool". It's just that writers are really, really bad and lack the hability to handle interaction between characters across the flow of scenes.

Don't you?

It might be this but really no one is handling this scene writing well. Not the japanese viewers or even the chinese viewers. english speaking folks across boards are not taking it well either. Maybe the words dont convey it the way it should be or the tone kaji yuki says it.