Character Discussion - Suzaku

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Dynastya

Only in an ideal world does two wrongs not make a right. The world isn't ideal.

Right. If everyone thought like that there would be chaos with people taking the law into their own hands (like Lelouch does.) Just because something bad happens to someone doesn't give them the right to go around and blow shit up.

It's not ok to kill either, but police officers have to use deadly force on occasions. It's not ok to lie but sometimes people have to lie to protect themselves or others.
And these wrongs always keep making rights.

Police Officers have to use deadly force in cases to protect themselves (at least they should.) Sometimes lies are bad too and can hurt a friendship or destroy a relationship, which this show has clearly shown actually.

[m1thril]

Originally Posted by Dynastya

In Episode 4 Lelouch asked Guilford what he would do if there wasn't an evil that could not be beaten with justice, would he beat that evil with evil or would he accept that his justice succumbs to evil.

Lelouch said that he would become evil to defeat an even greater evil. Lelouch has been consistent with his actions so far.

On the other hand Suzaku seems to be the latter, one who accepts the fact that his justice succumbs to evil.


OT: people who use larger fonts with color and other decorations when posting in a forum really amuse me, like the students whose project reports I had to mark where they used font size 15, bold and colorful fonts with flowers and twisting twirling shapes in the business course I use to teach for summer. Of course that alone cost them 50% of the grade for unprofessionalism.

your attack on him and your extremely biased opinion makes me question your professionalism as a teacher where your supposed to be unbiased. please keep insults on people who are posting in this forum out of here.

[Eliarine]

I think Suzaku was indecisive mainly because this was Zero, using "wrong" methods to achieve his ends, and that his goal has been to destroy him since R2 Turn 1. The Euphie flashback made him realize that "shooting Zero" would trigger another massacre and that's why he stopped that woman right after that.

[m1thril]

Originally Posted by Orga777

But was he dead set on it? I don't think he was.

ahh youre right...didnt see that 2nd 'to shoot him...'

[Silver Soul]

Well lets just face it Suzaku just can't get over Euphie and it seems that his entire drive these episodes were to kill Zero but on the other hand episode 8 saw that all he wants to know is why he had to kill her, I mean there has t be some revelation between the two that we see his reaction to the truth (Mao's mind reading) so he csn finally move on.

[Dynastya]

Only Suzaku and his 'god', if he even believes in one, knows whether he was really undecided about giving the order to shoot or not, but judging from his facial expressions, his tone of voice and the context in which he thought it 'I'll give the order to shoot' it is more than probable that he was actually going to give that order but the flashback of Euphiemia and Nunally's words prevented him from doing so.

Originally Posted by m1thril

your attack on him and your extremely biased opinion makes me question your professionalism as a teacher where your supposed to be unbiased. please keep insults on people who are posting in this forum out of here.

LOL never said I was a professional teacher, just a person who does it for the fun of it sometimes. Anyway, if someone can't take a joke or verbal insult and needs to rely on another person for protection, what good is that person?

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Dynastya

Only Suzaku and his 'god', if he even believes in one, knows whether he was really undecided about giving the order to shoot or not, but judging from his facial expressions, his tone of voice and the context in which he thought it 'I'll give the order to shoot' it is more than probable that he was actually going to give that order but the flashback of Euphiemia and Nunally's words prevented him from doing so.

I don't believe Suzaku would have given the order to shoot. I don't believe he could have made up his mind himself without Rohmeiyer taking matters into her own hands and Euphie and Nunally's words.

[Silver Soul]

Originally Posted by Dynastya

Only Suzaku and his 'god', if he even believes in one, knows whether he was really undecided about giving the order to shoot or not, but judging from his facial expressions, his tone of voice and the context in which he thought it 'I'll give the order to shoot' it is more than probable that he was actually going to give that order but the flashback of Euphiemia and Nunally's words prevented him from doing so.

Well we will never know will we, all we know is that your view makes seem like he was prepared to create another massacre regardless.

[canis]

Originally Posted by m1thril

yeah he did he was thinking 'ill give the order to shoot zero'

He didn't, he was thinking that he was supposed to shoot... Besides he hates Zero.
Suzaku still hesitated and decided not to give the order.

[Silver Soul]

Originally Posted by canis

He didn't, he was thinking that he was supposed to shoot... Besides he hates Zero.
Suzaku still hesitated and decided not to give the order.

But that why alot of haters dont like about him is that he's indecisive in his role and unlike Lelouch/Zero who acts out on every occassion without hestiation Suzaku doesn't he thinks about the situation at hand. Which is why Lelouch/Zero has alot of supporters on his side compared to Suzaku.

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by Silver Soul

But that why alot of haters dont like about him is that he's indecisive in his role and unlike Lelouch/Zero who acts out on every occassion without hestiation Suzaku doesn't he thinks about the situation at hand. Which is why Lelouch/Zero has alot of supporters on his side compared to Suzaku.

It must hurt his pride a lot, being outsmarted by Zero several times...oh wait a minute, he doesn't have any pride.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Dynastya

It must hurt his pride a lot, being outsmarted by Zero several times...oh wait a minute, he doesn't have any pride.

...Heh. At least he doesn't have an ego too big for his head like Lelouch.

[canis]

Originally Posted by Silver Soul

But that why alot of haters dont like about him is that he's indecisive in his role and unlike Lelouch/Zero who acts out on every occassion without hestiation Suzaku doesn't he thinks about the situation at hand. Which is why Lelouch/Zero has alot of supporters on his side compared to Suzaku.

Not without hesitation... If Nunnally's involved for instance he hesitates as well...
I think the main reason Suzaku hesitates in such cases is the amount of human lives involved... He doesn't make any sacrifices whereas Zero accepts them, more or less willingly...

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by Orga777

...Heh. At least he doesn't have an ego too big for his head like Lelouch.

Yup Lelouch is really strong in areas such as judgment, tolerance, reality-testing, control, planning, defense, synthesis of information, intellectual functioning, and memory.

[Silver Soul]

Whats worse having a big ego or no pride?

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by canis

Not without hesitation... If Nunnally's involved for instance he hesitates as well...
I think the main reason Suzaku hesitates in such cases is the amount of human lives involved... He doesn't make any sacrifices whereas Zero accepts them, more or less willingly...

That's the difference between Lelouch and Suzaku. One is ready to make sacrifices "for the greater good", the other tries to change things while limiting losses. Hence his recurring indecisiveness and frustration when sacrifices "must" be made.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Dynastya

Yup Lelouch is really strong in areas such as judgment, tolerance, reality-testing, control, planning, defense, synthesis of information, intellectual functioning, and memory.

I could go into all of Lelouch's faults like you do Suzaku's, but I am not sure if it will be worth it.

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by Silver Soul

Whats worse having a big ego or no pride?

Having pride is more important, a person without pride is nothing more than just an animal.

"Humans are weak against force and violence, against such concepts their only desire is to survive no matter what, they lose all pride and respect."

I'm reminded of the famous Rickoverian Paradox at this moment:

(http://test.jbs.org/node/544)

Two individuals, the sole survivors of a tragic shipwreck, are adrift in a small, damaged lifeboat. The water is pitilessly cold. The boat itself is damaged in such a way that it will only be able to carry one of its occupants, and then perhaps only for a short time. It is impossible to repair the boat. If nothing is done, both occupants will perish. But whichever is discarded will die very quickly.

One of those aboard the stricken lifeboat is a highly trained military officer with valuable – perhaps irreplaceable – technical skills. A huge sum has been spent on his training, which is of critical importance since the country is at war.

The other individual is an innocent and law-abiding person of no particular achievements or aptitudes. Few if any would notice that person's absence, and the community at large would be impoverished in no discernible way if he were consigned to an early, watery grave.

Since only one can be saved, which of the two should it be?


In the case of Lelouch, he is irreplaceable as the leader of the Black Knights, and he alone has the charisma, intelligence, brains and ability to challenge Britannia and lead the Black Knights (which is also stated by Todoh and Ougi and several others).

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by Orga777

I could go into all of Lelouch's faults like you do Suzaku's, but I am not sure if it will be worth it.

Oh please, be my guest, don't let anything stop you from doing so. Then I'll show you how easily each one of them can be contested.

[Silver Soul]

Originally Posted by Orga777

I could go into all of Lelouch's faults like you do Suzaku's, but I am not sure if it will be worth it.

It's best not since someone will always find something wrong or make up some BS to support Lelouch and hate Suzaku.

Originally Posted by Dynastya

Having pride is more important, a person without pride is nothing more than just an animal.

"Humans are weak against force and violence, against such concepts their only desire is to survive no matter what, they lose all pride and respect."

I'm reminded of the famous Rickoverian Paradox at this moment:

(http://test.jbs.org/node/544)

In the case of Lelouch, he is irreplaceable as the leader of the Black Knights, and he alone has the charisma, intelligence, brains and ability to challenge Britannia and lead the Black Knights (which is also stated by Todoh and Ougi and several others).

Wow, that was more than I expected really, but I never liked any of the members of the Black Knights as a whole.