Date A Live: Rinne Utopia (デート・ア・ライブ 凜祢ユートピア)

[iamadooddood]

Originally Posted by Marly

Someone explain to me people's fetish with pregnancy endings.

It's more of if they hadn't promised us pregnancy endings then we wouldn't have talked about them so much. We're simply talking about what was promised and what we actually got.

[Marly]

Originally Posted by iamadooddood

It's more of if they hadn't promised us pregnancy endings then we wouldn't have talked about them so much. We're simply talking about what was promised and what we actually got.

Are you sure it wasn't a mistranslation? Or maybe the information wasn't directly from Sting/Compile Heart, hence the inaccuracy.

Either way, I think the notion of pregnancy endings to be rather , so I'm glad it only stuck with Origami.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Marly

Are you sure it wasn't a mistranslation? Or maybe the information wasn't directly from Sting/Compile Heart, hence the inaccuracy.

I saw the actual Japanese promo text that talked about the pregnancy endings way back, although it wasn't actually a promise or anything. Still, that's a pretty significant deal to be stating so specifically.
I was skeptical of it since back then, but I ended up letting my hopes get up a bit in the time up to the game's release. >.>

Either way, I think the notion of pregnancy endings to be rather , so I'm glad it only stuck with Origami.

For me, it's more the "they lived their lives together and had a family" aspect that I like about it and the complete feeling of the relationship that comes with it.
I saw so many animes/mangas back in the 90s that ended with "we leave it up to your imagination" endings. They were in love, they confessed to each other, but they didn't do anything definitive. So I like to see definitvely "complete" endings.

[RapidPotential]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

I saw the actual Japanese promo text that talked about the pregnancy endings way back, although it wasn't actually a promise or anything. Still, that's a pretty significant deal to be stating so specifically.
I was skeptical of it since back then, but I ended up letting my hopes get up a bit in the time up to the game's release. >.>

Well, as I stated before, I believe we were given wrong information and that it was more hyperbolic than factual. It wasn't a complete lie in the end, but yeah, the "getting our hopes up" bit really does get at you, especially with the growing excitement in the weeks leading up to the release date.

Originally Posted by Shinji103

For me, it's more the "they lived their lives together and had a family" aspect that I like about it and the complete feeling of the relationship that comes with it.
I saw so many animes/mangas back in the 90s that ended with "we leave it up to your imagination" endings. They were in love, they confessed to each other, but they didn't do anything definitive. So I like to see definitvely "complete" endings.

I quite agree with this part. Usually the romance stories all end up with the main protagonist and one of the heroines together, but they're usually open-ended; the "family ever after" events tend to act as an epilogue to conclude such stories and give the story a completeness about them which many are not used to seeing, which makes it something to look forward to, but that's only my opinion though.

[Xero8420]

Okay... Then we ought stick with the "leave it up to your imagination" endings instead. Cause they already left some goodie-goodie stuffs for us, especially the "family ever after" ending with their "love child", so that we could sugar-coat our imaginations about a particular happy ending.

[Marly]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

For me, it's more the "they lived their lives together and had a family" aspect that I like about it and the complete feeling of the relationship that comes with it.
I saw so many animes/mangas back in the 90s that ended with "we leave it up to your imagination" endings. They were in love, they confessed to each other, but they didn't do anything definitive. So I like to see definitvely "complete" endings.

I would agree if this was any conventional slice of life/romance, but it isn't. I think the finality of something derives from the combination of both what leads to an epilogue, and the epilogue itself. For example, in Kurumi's ending:

Spoiler:

The original Kurumi plans on killing the clone that fell in love with Shidou later, so even if there was to be a pregnancy ending there, it wouldn't feel "happily ever after" at all because a negative foreshadowing was already established prior to the epilogue itself. And besides, as revealed throughout the story and the final Rinne ending,

Spoiler:

all the routes were illusions anyways.

And Yoshino's theoretical pregnancy ending would be just outright pedophilia.

While I get what you're trying to say as to how such an ending would feel more "conclusive" than a conventional "and they sort of went off into the sunset holding hands" ending, I feel like it would just feel extremely forced when it comes to a series like this.

[iamadooddood]

Originally Posted by Marly

I would agree if this was any conventional slice of life/romance, but it isn't. I think the finality of something derives from the combination of both what leads to an epilogue, and the epilogue itself. For example, in Kurumi's ending:

Spoiler:

The original Kurumi plans on killing the clone that fell in love with Shidou later, so even if there was to be a pregnancy ending there, it wouldn't feel "happily ever after" at all because a negative foreshadowing was already established prior to the epilogue itself. And besides, as revealed throughout the story and the final Rinne ending,

Spoiler:

all the routes were illusions anyways.

And Yoshino's theoretical pregnancy ending would be just outright pedophilia.

While I get what you're trying to say as to how such an ending would feel more "conclusive" than a conventional "and they sort of went off into the sunset holding hands" ending, I feel like it would just feel extremely forced when it comes to a series like this.

Spoiler:

Didn't the Kurumi clone got revived by Ruler? And in addition if Ruler could defeat the likes of Efreet!Kotori with ease then Kurumi (the original) would likely also be a piece of cake? So the original Kurumi would know not to mess with Ruler, who'd support the relationship and likely stop the original from trying to sabotage it. It's not worth wasting so much lifespan for a single clone anyway. Which would likely be all for nothing if you consider Ruler's power.

Spoiler:

That all the endings are illusions doesn't matter if you didn't know that it was an illusion. Not until Shido found out anyway.

A theoretical Yoshino (or Kotori) pregnancy ending would not be paedophilia if you fast forwarded the epilogue, say, 5-10 years ahead.

Spoiler:

Heck, Kotori's ending has her as a fully grown adult, even though she's more than a month shy of her 14th birthday in the VN's setting. I'd have liked to see an adult Yoshino though. :<

I can't comment much on whether pregnancy endings would feel forced or not here though.

In any case, I thought choosing just one girl out of 6 when half the girls were liable to go put of control anytime you're not around (and even sometimes when you are) felt weird. Oh well, seems like it all worked out in the end.

[Marly]

Originally Posted by iamadooddood

Spoiler:

Didn't the Kurumi clone got revived by Ruler? And in addition if Ruler could defeat the likes of Efreet!Kotori with ease then Kurumi (the original) would likely also be a piece of cake? So the original Kurumi would know not to mess with Ruler, who'd support the relationship and likely stop the original from trying to sabotage it. It's not worth wasting so much lifespan for a single clone anyway. Which would likely be all for nothing if you consider Ruler's power.

Spoiler:

That all the endings are illusions doesn't matter if you didn't know that it was an illusion. Not until Shido found out anyway.

Spoiler:

Even if the original Kurumi did not attempt to actively kill her own clone if Ruler got in the way, the clone itself was already on a time limit- Due to the nature of Zafkiel's ability, if the original does not supply the clone with "Time," it will expire all by itself and simply disappear. That is something not even Ruler can interfere with.

Spoiler:

It doesn't matter in the smaller perspective, yes- But for something to be seen as an actual happy epilogue, I'd think it would need to be actually canonically conclusive instead of being a canonical illusion.

Originally Posted by iamadooddood

A theoretical Yoshino (or Kotori) pregnancy ending would not be paedophilia if you fast forwarded the epilogue, say, 5-10 years ahead.

Spoiler:

Heck, Kotori's ending has her as a fully grown adult, even though she's more than a month shy of her 14th birthday in the VN's setting. I'd have liked to see an adult Yoshino though. :<

Do Spirits even age? Kotori shouldn't count since she's a human with spirit powers.

And it feels forced because while it technically "concludes" a relationship, it doesn't do anything to actually conclude the main plot- Which is why such an ending would feel like a pandering material than anything.

[Miraluka]

Future Kotori has boobs XD.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Marly

I would agree if this was any conventional slice of life/romance, but it isn't. I think the finality of something derives from the combination of both what leads to an epilogue, and the epilogue itself. For example, in Kurumi's ending:

Spoiler:

The original Kurumi plans on killing the clone that fell in love with Shidou later, so even if there was to be a pregnancy ending there, it wouldn't feel "happily ever after" at all because a negative foreshadowing was already established prior to the epilogue itself. And besides, as revealed throughout the story and the final Rinne ending,

Spoiler:

all the routes were illusions anyways.

Spoiler:

Except these routes are supposed to be perfect, happy endings. That's the whole point the plot of this game, the whole point of this thing that Rinne is trying to do; make a happy, perfect ending for Shidou.
That's the whole reason why the original Kurumi was "miraculously" banished from the city, and why the clone Kurumi "miraculously" didn't disappear after she went against the original Kurumi; Rinne's "Utopia Power" did it all so Shidou could be with his girl in his paradise that Rinna is trying to make for him.

And Yoshino's theoretical pregnancy ending would be just outright pedophilia.

You're assuming that they don't wait until she grows up; as iamadooddood pointed out,[spoiled]in Kotori's ending the epilogue showed her grown up.[/spoiler]Seeing an adult Yoshino alone probably would have made her ending so much better, actually.
And the whole question of spirits aging or not can be put to rest with

Spoiler:

Rinne's "Utopia power."

While I get what you're trying to say as to how such an ending would feel more "conclusive" than a conventional "and they sort of went off into the sunset holding hands" ending, I feel like it would just feel extremely forced when it comes to a series like this.

Except as I stated above,

Spoiler:

the perfect, happy endings are the whole point of the plot and of the game itself being made.

Besides, we got the not-so-happy ending on Rinne's route, which is the true route.

Originally Posted by Marly

Spoiler:

Even if the original Kurumi did not attempt to actively kill her own clone if Ruler got in the way, the clone itself was already on a time limit- Due to the nature of Zafkiel's ability, if the original does not supply the clone with "Time," it will expire all by itself and simply disappear. That is something not even Ruler can interfere with.

Spoiler:

It doesn't matter in the smaller perspective, yes- But for something to be seen as an actual happy epilogue, I'd think it would need to be actually canonically conclusive instead of being a canonical illusion.

Spoiler:

The game proves you wrong on Rinne not being able to interfere with clone Kurumi's time limit. It's specfically pointed out that she should have disappeared in a few days' time, but she continued to exist through the rest of Shidou's high school days up to his graduation, and there's no sign she ever would disappear.
It's also explained on Rinne's route that her "Utopia power" essentially controls reality itself inside her barrier; she may not be omnipotent but she can still make impossible things happen, like clone Kurumi staying alive.

And it feels forced because while it technically "concludes" a relationship, it doesn't do anything to actually conclude the main plot- Which is why such an ending would feel like a pandering material than anything.

This is very true, actually. And note how in all the route except Rinne's,

Spoiler:

all the other character seem to drop off the map so that way the ending can happen without any of the conflict or drama outside of the main route dilemam, say, Kotori and the others opposing Shidou's relationship with Kurumi.

But this is more due to the fact that this is a "milking game" as I call them.

You have games that are meant to be their own stories and sell for being themselves like the Final Fantasy games, the Tales of games, the Uncharted series, etc. These games get big budgets and lots of work put into them to make them good.

Then you have milking games, which are made to make more money off the popularity of the base title, like the Toaru games, Sword Art Online, the games made for Captain America and Iron Man, and of course DAL: Rinne Utopia. Most of the time, these games don't get the best of budgets (certainly nothing on the level of a Final Fantasy or Tales of game) and feel cheap since the fans buy them mostly because it's part of the title they like. One good example of this is the Black Cat game for PS2; absolutely HORRIBLE combat gameplay. >.>

Though DAL: Rinne Utopia, as well as SAO: Infinity Moment and the Oreimo PSP games, were pretty good and well-funded for milking games, they still showed signs of lackluster development. To finish off the main plot of DAL and have Rinne Utopia offer a real ending, they'd have to put a lot more work, meaning a lot more money, into it. But milking games just don't get that kind of budget. So the whole point of games like this basically is to pander to the fans.

[Mystic_Vegetto]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

But this is more due to the fact that this is a "milking game" as I call them.

You have games that are meant to be their own stories and sell for being themselves like the Final Fantasy games, the Tales of games, the Uncharted series, etc. These games get big budgets and lots of work put into them to make them good.

Then you have milking games, which are made to make more money off the popularity of the base title, like the Toaru games, Sword Art Online, the games made for Captain America and Iron Man, and of course DAL: Rinne Utopia. Most of the time, these games don't get the best of budgets (certainly nothing on the level of a Final Fantasy or Tales of game) and feel cheap since the fans buy them mostly because it's part of the title they like. One good example of this is the Black Cat game for PS2; absolutely HORRIBLE combat gameplay. >.>

Though DAL: Rinne Utopia, as well as SAO: Infinity Moment and the Oreimo PSP games, were pretty good and well-funded for milking games, they still showed signs of lackluster development. To finish off the main plot of DAL and have Rinne Utopia offer a real ending, they'd have to put a lot more work, meaning a lot more money, into it. But milking games just don't get that kind of budget. So the whole point of games like this basically is to pander to the fans.

I have to agree here. Due to popularity, all sorts of Merchandise will be made in order to make more money off of the Title. While many people may view the Date A Live Anime as a failure, or something that they just didn't like, it's still a proven fact that the Light Novels are very popular with hundreds of thousands in Volume Sales. I'm not surprised at all that a Game was made for Date A Live. However, I am surprised that it was a PS3 Console Game, and that it would be a Visual Novel Game.

As for the Pregnancy Endings, those have become a Selling Point in Visual Novel Games based off Anime/Manga/Novels. Games like Toradora and Oreimo helped to contribute in making it a selling point. The reason why people find Pregnancy to be so appealing in this regard, is because when you look at the Source Material, whether it's an Anime, Manga or a Novel, everyone has in their mind some kind of Ending that they view. Whether it's a Character Ending, or some other type of ending. So for them, instead of waiting for the End of the Story to come out after a long time, they have a Game they can play instead in order to appeal to them. To see whether it's possible that the ending they want to see can be done in this game. Pregnancy is a very rare ending that everyone doesn't really get to see. So creators have seized on it in order to make more sales and more Money.

When it comes to the endings in Rinne Utopia, here's my opinion about them.

Spoiler:

I find the Endings to be rather Unfortunate. Because as we all know, the Endings aren't real, and in fact, are just used to add more to the Mystery. You can make the case that the Endings are in fact Bad Endings, because in the end, the "Bad Guy" got their way. Granted, I still haven't beaten the game, and I haven't touched it since a few days ago when I finished Kotori's route, but given everything that's happened so far, even I can tell that none of these Ends are meant to happen at all. Rather, it's all a Fabrication due to the Main Antagonist of the game. As for why that person is doing this, I don't know. As I said, I haven't beaten the game. But I am interested in finding out.

But that's just my opinion.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Mystic_Vegetto

While many people may view the Date A Live Anime as a failure, or something that they just didn't like, it's still a proven fact that the Light Novels are very popular with hundreds of thousands in Volume Sales.

The volume 1 BD/DVD sold well too.

When it comes to the endings in Rinne Utopia, here's my opinion about them.

Spoiler:

I find the Endings to be rather Unfortunate. Because as we all know, the Endings aren't real, and in fact, are just used to add more to the Mystery. You can make the case that the Endings are in fact Bad Endings, because in the end, the "Bad Guy" got their way. Granted, I still haven't beaten the game, and I haven't touched it since a few days ago when I finished Kotori's route, but given everything that's happened so far, even I can tell that none of these Ends are meant to happen at all. Rather, it's all a Fabrication due to the Main Antagonist of the game. As for why that person is doing this, I don't know. As I said, I haven't beaten the game. But I am interested in finding out.

You definitely need to finish the game. That's all I can say to that without spoilers.

[RapidPotential]

Well, everyone has to understand that there will be games that will be purely profit-driven, especially in the case of a "cash-cow" series where numerous of these are made, regardless of actual final quality, and the prices aren't exactly the cheapest either. There are times where you wonder is it really worth putting your penny to the test and buying the game, even if it turns out horrendous, sometimes due in part of being a fan of a series.

Nonetheless, we can always treat this game's events like a possible "what if" scenario, given it's branching from off the main plot of the original source material. Date A Live is a pretty popular series, and I'd say it'll continue to get exposure.

Originally Posted by Marly

And Yoshino's theoretical pregnancy ending would be just outright pedophilia.

Quite extreme to put it this way since Yoshino has been stated to be around Kotori's age (13-14) based on appearance alone; then again this point is moot because we don't even know if Spirits age normally if they have their powers sealed. Moreover some epilogues in the game went fast-forward so it wouldn't have ruled out the same thing for Yoshino's route.

[Mystic_Vegetto]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

The volume 1 BD/DVD sold well too.

You definitely need to finish the game. That's all I can say to that without spoilers.

I probably will. Just that I burned myself out on it after playing it for a few days straight. Taking the time to finish some other games at the moment.

[Marly]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Spoiler:

Except these routes are supposed to be perfect, happy endings. That's the whole point the plot of this game, the whole point of this thing that Rinne is trying to do; make a happy, perfect ending for Shidou.
That's the whole reason why the original Kurumi was "miraculously" banished from the city, and why the clone Kurumi "miraculously" didn't disappear after she went against the original Kurumi; Rinne's "Utopia Power" did it all so Shidou could be with his girl in his paradise that Rinna is trying to make for him.

You're assuming that they don't wait until she grows up; as iamadooddood pointed out,[spoiled]in Kotori's ending the epilogue showed her grown up.[/spoiler]Seeing an adult Yoshino alone probably would have made her ending so much better, actually.
And the whole question of spirits aging or not can be put to rest with

Spoiler:

Rinne's "Utopia power."

Spoiler:

Technically one could explain everything through "hey, it was magic, so ain't gotta explain shit," but I think no limits fallacy applies here. Kotori growing up is plausible because she's a human, not a spirit. I honestly doubt Rinne was capable of everything inside her barrier as you're implying. I mean, otherwise the true ending wouldn't exist.

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Except as I stated above,

Spoiler:

the perfect, happy endings are the whole point of the plot and of the game itself being made.

Besides, we got the not-so-happy ending on Rinne's route, which is the true route.

Spoiler:

I still don't see clone Kurumi's ending to be a very happy one, though. It sort of contradicts your point that the true canonical ending is one of the unhappy endings unless you're implying that the producers assumed that the players will just complete one route they liked and stop playing the game altogether without ever getting to the true ending. (Thus, a player would just reach a "happy ending" without being informed that it's not actually real) Don't confuse a character's intent with the "point of the game/plot." They are two different things.

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Spoiler:

The game proves you wrong on Rinne not being able to interfere with clone Kurumi's time limit. It's specfically pointed out that she should have disappeared in a few days' time, but she continued to exist through the rest of Shidou's high school days up to his graduation, and there's no sign she ever would disappear.
It's also explained on Rinne's route that her "Utopia power" essentially controls reality itself inside her barrier; she may not be omnipotent but she can still make impossible things happen, like clone Kurumi staying alive.

Spoiler:

About the "no sign that she would ever disappear," didn't the clone tell Shidou that she would disappear soon herself during the ending and that she would like to spend as much time as possible with Shidou before that happens on the rooftop? Just because she managed to exist slightly longer than the usual doesn't really disprove my point. You can elaborate on that, though.

Originally Posted by Shinji103

So the whole point of games like this basically is to pander to the fans.

What I don't get is why Sting was involved with this game when it seems like Compile Heart could have done just as much by themselves. It actually gave an impression that this was going to be something other than a generic VN since Sting has a decent track record.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Marly

Spoiler:

Technically one could explain everything through "hey, it was magic, so ain't gotta explain shit," but I think no limits fallacy applies here. Kotori growing up is plausible because she's a human, not a spirit. I honestly doubt Rinne was capable of everything inside her barrier as you're implying. I mean, otherwise the true ending wouldn't exist.

Spoiler:

Erm, I said she's not omnipotent.

But if she can keep clone Kurumi alive when she should have disappeared, she should be able to make spirits grow older.

Spoiler:

I still don't see clone Kurumi's ending to be a very happy one, though. It sort of contradicts your point that the true canonical ending is one of the unhappy endings unless you're implying that the producers assumed that the players will just complete one route they liked and stop playing the game altogether without ever getting to the true ending. (Thus, a player would just reach a "happy ending" without being informed that it's not actually real) Don't confuse a character's intent with the "point of the game/plot." They are two different things.

Spoiler:

I've already said this game is a milking game and thus exists to pander to the fans. They gave us a game with endings for each of the heroines that actually works within a plot without just being some random "it doesn't make sense but we like it so let's completely ignore the logic" story.

Why are you so focused on these endings being illusions? They're actually not, anyway. As Rinne explains, they're all realities, realities that are each entirely possible; she just occasionally helped them happen with her powers. (like making the real Kurumi disappear before she could kill clone Kurumi and Shidou) The "world" (the reality inside her barrier) simply reset each time Shidou died. (the condition for the reality resetting, as explained by Reine at the end of Rinne's route) And one would assume dying of old age (naturally not covered in the events of the game) counts too, so that's how Shidou could experience each ending with each of the girls.

Unless this game is considered canon, you're argument about illusion endings and such is moot to begin with anyway. Meanwhile the fans get exactly what they want; seeing the girl they like get together with the main character.
Of course, how popular the exact details are vary from fan to fan.

Spoiler:

About the "no sign that she would ever disappear," didn't the clone tell Shidou that she would disappear soon herself during the ending and that she would like to spend as much time as possible with Shidou before that happens on the rooftop? Just because she managed to exist slightly longer than the usual doesn't really disprove my point. You can elaborate on that, though.

Spoiler:

You seem to have something mixed up.

In Shidou's room before the credits, Kurumi says she wants to spend as much time with Shidou as possible.

After the credits, which is over a year later (it's the day of Shidou's high school garduation), Kurumi is still there. Then they say she should have disappeared within a few days. (back over a year earlier, a bit more than "slightly" longer)

[iamadooddood]

Since Shinji103 has explained everything else already...

Originally Posted by Marly

What I don't get is why Sting was involved with this game when it seems like Compile Heart could have done just as much by themselves. It actually gave an impression that this was going to be something other than a generic VN since Sting has a decent track record.

Well, it's not like it's the first time Sting's getting involved with a VN anyway.

And from online comments people were saying that Sting didn't have a decent track record lol.

[Marly]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Spoiler:

Erm, I said she's not omnipotent.

But if she can keep clone Kurumi alive when she should have disappeared, she should be able to make spirits grow older.

Spoiler:

You claim she's not, yet imply that she is by claiming that she is pretty much capable of anything, such as making spirits physically age if they are otherwise unable to although it wasn't actually shown. Why are you being contradictory? The keyword is "should"- You just seem to be under the impression that Rinne is capable of more than what she displayed, and that's what I find baffling.

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Spoiler:

Why are you so focused on these endings being illusions? They're actually not, anyway. As Rinne explains, they're all realities, realities that are each entirely possible; she just occasionally helped them happen with her powers. (like making the real Kurumi disappear before she could kill clone Kurumi and Shidou) The "world" (the reality inside her barrier) simply reset each time Shidou died. (the condition for the reality resetting, as explained by Reine at the end of Rinne's route) And one would assume dying of old age (naturally not covered in the events of the game) counts too, so that's how Shidou could experience each ending with each of the girls.

Spoiler:

Now you're just nitpicking. She considers them "realities" because they do "happen," but these events are under her jurisdiction of world reset- It might as well be a "virtual reality," which is just a fancy way to describe an illusion. Tying it with a series you may or may not be familiar with, every single "game" in Umineko would be considered something similar to these virtual "realities" as well.

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Spoiler:

Unless this game is considered canon, you're argument about illusion endings and such is moot to begin with anyway. Meanwhile the fans get exactly what they want; seeing the girl they like get together with the main character. Of course, how popular the exact details are vary from fan to fan.

Spoiler:

I think you're the one missing the point here and making the moot point- If there is a true, final "canonical" ending, then that just completely trivializes all the other endings in the game because all those "endings" were just make believe realities created by Rinne, even in the game-canon. It's completely irrelevant whether this ends up being canonical to the main series itself. Do you understand now?

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Spoiler:

You seem to have something mixed up.

In Shidou's room before the credits, Kurumi says she wants to spend as much time with Shidou as possible.

After the credits, which is over a year later (it's the day of Shidou's high school garduation), Kurumi is still there. Then they say she should have disappeared within a few days. (back over a year earlier, a bit more than "slightly" longer)

Spoiler:

Let's use your logic here- Since you claim that Rinne is capable of nearly anything such as giving the clone extra time or making spirits age, then since when did you fall under the impression that she couldn't just manipulate everyone's memories so that it seems as if a year has passed without actually supplying the clone with time? She's clearly capable of such things due to her world reset ability, so why not here? I'm using this possibility in correlation to what she has actually shown to be capable of as opposed to your assumptions on what she "should" be capable of.

Originally Posted by iamadooddood

And from online comments people were saying that Sting didn't have a decent track record lol.

Now that's just objectively wrong. Those negative comments are clearly from people who lost their minds at Dokapon Kingdom.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Marly

Spoiler:

You claim she's not, yet imply that she is by claiming that she is pretty much capable of anything, such as making spirits physically age if they are otherwise unable to although it wasn't actually shown. Why are you being contradictory? The keyword is "should"- You just seem to be under the impression that Rinne is capable of more than what she displayed, and that's what I find baffling.

Spoiler:

So I say she can do something amazing, and that means I'm saying she's omnipotent?

I see fault in this logic.....

We don't know for sure she can do it (though what we have seen her do makes it pretty obvious she can do a lot), but we certainly don't know she can't. And the game kinda made it obvious that she's not omnipotent, so I don't know where you'd get the idea that that's what I'm trying to claim....

Spoiler:

Now you're just nitpicking. She considers them "realities" because they do "happen," but these events are under her jurisdiction of world reset- It might as well be a "virtual reality," which is just a fancy way to describe an illusion. Tying it with a series you may or may not be familiar with, every single "game" in Umineko would be considered something similar to these virtual "realities" as well.

Spoiler:

Actually Rinne has less jurisdiction then you seem to understand.

Rinne can't actually reset this world at will. Otherwise on her route (and all the "reset" routes for the other heroines), she wouldn't have to go and kill Shidou herself in order to reset the world. So aside from being able to influence things in certain ways, Rinne can't just snap her fingers and rewrite the world. Not much of a "virtual reality" there.

Spoiler:

I think you're the one missing the point here and making the moot point- If there is a true, final "canonical" ending, then that just completely trivializes all the other endings in the game because all those "endings" were just make believe realities created by Rinne, even in the game-canon. It's completely irrelevant whether this ends up being canonical to the main series itself. Do you understand now?

Spoiler:

Yes I understand. That you're nitpicking.

It's already been stated by Rinne that they really experienced these worlds.

And the part where I was talking about if this game is canon or not was just an example of why your argument is pointless. This game was ultimately made to cater to the fans; it did so.

Spoiler:

Let's use your logic here- Since you claim that Rinne is capable of nearly anything such as giving the clone extra time or making spirits age, then since when did you fall under the impression that she couldn't just manipulate everyone's memories so that it seems as if a year has passed without actually supplying the clone with time? She's clearly capable of such things due to her world reset ability, so why not here? I'm using this possibility in correlation to what she has actually shown to be capable of as opposed to your assumptions on what she "should" be capable of.

Spoiler:

Aaaaaaand you're still not grasping what Rinne was trying to do here.

She was never trying to make a fake reality; she said these were all real worlds they experienced, all of them very real possibilities.

Now you're trying to twist my stance to try and make it something you can use against me. And you're trying to read too deep into it and making a muck of the whole thing.

Bottom line, I think you're reading far too deep into this and making it far too complicated.

[Marly]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Spoiler:

So I say she can do something amazing, and that means I'm saying she's omnipotent?

I see fault in this logic.....

We don't know for sure she can do it (though what we have seen her do makes it pretty obvious she can do a lot), but we certainly don't know she can't. And the game kinda made it obvious that she's not omnipotent, so I don't know where you'd get the idea that that's what I'm trying to claim....

Spoiler:

So far you haven't really claimed anything that Rinne isn't capable of, so I'd think it's pretty logical to assume you're pretty much making an implication that she is pretty much omnipotent in her own reality marble despite claiming otherwise because you're aware that it's a stupid claim to make. Here, the burden of proof is on you- Rinne hasn't shown that she is capable of what you're trying to say, so unless you can make a direct proof instead of claiming she "should" be able to, your argument falls short here.

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Spoiler:

Actually Rinne has less jurisdiction then you seem to understand.

Rinne can't actually reset this world at will. Otherwise on her route (and all the "reset" routes for the other heroines), she wouldn't have to go and kill Shidou herself in order to reset the world. So aside from being able to influence things in certain ways, Rinne can't just snap her fingers and rewrite the world. Not much of a "virtual reality" there.

Spoiler:

So just because she can't reset the world as easily makes it any less of a virtual reality when it pretty much is? Are you joking?

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Spoiler:

Yes I understand. That you're nitpicking.

It's already been stated by Rinne that they really experienced these worlds.

And the part where I was talking about if this game is canon or not was just an example of why your argument is pointless. This game was ultimately made to cater to the fans; it did so.

Spoiler:

And that only helps my argument- She "experienced" these worlds, meaning these endings can be treated as if they're on a single timeline. Meaning, any ending other than the true ending might as well be something like this in a single timeline:

Start Game ->Ending 1 -> Canon Reset -> Ending 2 -> Canon Reset -> etc -> True Ending!

Yes, this game is partially a catering bait, like pretty much anything with anime females- Unfortunately, the plot isn't too cater-some since none of the endings actually stick due to the true ending being there. From a view that isn't extremely shallow as to treat this just as something that caters, that is. Or maybe you're implying that the majority of fanbase is not very intelligent as to be not aware of what happens in this game outside of their favorite route?

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Spoiler:

Aaaaaaand you're still not grasping what Rinne was trying to do here.

She was never trying to make a fake reality; she said these were all real worlds they experienced, all of them very real possibilities.

Spoiler:

Yes, and we call that a "virtual reality," something that you have yet to disprove. Up there you were claiming that it's not so "virtual" because she has to kill Shidou to reset the world instead of snapping her fingers or something? That's a hilarious argument. I guess if a man in charge of some virtual reality game has to spill his coffee on his computer instead of pressing a reset button to reset the game, that game stops being a virtual reality too. No, really, I don't see what's so difficult to comprehend here.

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Spoiler:

Now you're trying to twist my stance to try and make it something you can use against me. And you're trying to read too deep into it and making a muck of the whole thing.

Bottom line, I think you're reading far too deep into this and making it far too complicated.

No one's trying to twist your stance. Your stance doesn't even make sense to begin with.