News Stories

[monster]

Originally Posted by Irenicus

The United States Supreme Court is famous for hating freedom. Like, really, really hating freedom.

First was instituting plutocracy through corporate personhood, then the legalization of fucktons-of-money-as-speech, and then it's the utter destruction of net neutrality, and now, ladies and gentlemen,

Public prayer at town hall meetings is confirmed legal. Cutting through all the flimsy pluralist excuses bullshit (like that'll happen), America once again sanctions evangelical peer pressure in the most insidious of places -- where citizens technically have the right to have their voices heard, as equals.

Hahahaha, nope. Checkmate, atheists. And Jews.

Death to America.

A ruling that affirms one of the freedoms guaranteed by the First Amendment is the opposite of hating freedom.

Originally Posted by Irenicus

But you don't dare to speak out and question it. You bow your head and you pretend to pray. Every bit of your common sense is screaming at you that you. must. play. along. or this mob of tub-asses will turn on you and ignore whatever you have to say the very moment you so much as question Jesus' Divine Spirit, bully you right out of town, harass your family, or worse.

Not necessarily. Participation is likely to be voluntary.


Some things from the article:

If an opening prayer is to be delivered, it should be inclusive of all faiths, rather than explicitly sectarian.

A religious prayer cannot, by definition, be inclusive of all faiths.

Instead, she said, the town overwhelmingly hosted Christian prayers at its meetings, sending a resounding message of endorsement of Christianity to the exclusion of other faiths.

The only message it sends is that the people doing the prayers at this meeting are Christians.

“In this country, when citizens go before the government, they go not as Christians or Muslims, or Jews (or what have you), but just as Americans,” she said.

“That is what it means to be an equal citizen, irrespective of religion,” she wrote.

Part of being Americans is the freedom of religion. And with that freedom, each American who attends this meeting can freely join in the prayer and can also freely not join in the prayer.

Residents seeking board approval of some project or request might feel pressure to participate in the prayer out of fear that they would offend board members and sour their chances by remaining seated or leaving the room, she said.

Then the solution is to clarify the matter that participation is strictly voluntary and would not affect any decisions made.

“Government should not be in the business of forcing faith on anyone

Public prayer is not an enforcement of faith, but an expression of faith.

Many referred to Jesus and included references to “we” and “us,” suggesting that all persons present shared the same beliefs.

First-person pronouns in prayers only refer to those who are praying, never to anyone who happens to be in the same room. And as it is a public prayer, it is likely that more than one person is involved, hence the “we” and “us.”

“The First Amendment is not a majority rule, and government may not seek to define permissible categories of religious speech,” Kennedy said. “Once it invites prayer into the public sphere, government must permit a prayer giver to address his or her own God or gods as conscience dictates, unfettered by what an administrator or judge considers to be nonsectarian.”

Exactly. The First Amendment is not about making people universalists or atheists, although people can be that way of their own accord.

Kennedy went on to stress that such invocations were not without constraint. Public prayers must be “solemn and respectful in tone” and aimed at inviting lawmakers to “reflect on shared ideals and common ends.”

He warned that prayers might cross a constitutional line if the invocations “denigrate nonbelievers or religious minorities, threaten damnation, or preach conversion.”

“Absent a pattern of prayers that over time denigrate, proselytize, or betray an impermissible government purpose, a challenge based solely on the content of a prayer will not likely establish a constitutional violation,” Kennedy wrote.

Fair point.

[Irenicus]

Originally Posted by monster

A ruling that affirms one of the freedoms guaranteed by the First Amendment is the opposite of hating freedom. Not necessarily. Participation is likely to be voluntary.

"Voluntary."

Don't even try to play that "white" (ooooh) lie.

Do you know how many kids each year get punished by their teachers and administrators for not saying the "voluntary" infamous "under god" pledge? That piece of propaganda born of some flagmaker's commercial genius (what else?) they make kids say every day?

Voluntary my ass. Peer pressure is a real thing. Peer pressure against minorities is something the civil rights movement struggled very hard to ensure the United States government avoids. Peer pressure supported by "sympathetic" local police is force. Peer pressure also kills. Those thousands of suicidal teenage gay kids...

Some things from the article: A religious prayer cannot, by definition, be inclusive of all faiths. The only message it sends is that the people doing the prayers at this meeting are Christians.

"And you are Christian too."

The fuck are they doing praying at a public meeting meant for influencing governance? Don't even try to play technicalities with me, it sends exactly the message it is intended to send. This is a Christian place, obey. You're not Christian? Well shut the fuck up and pretend you are (like, god forbid, shut up and stay put if you're gay). How cute, "it's not an enforcement." Oh, if only. The only way they could be more blatant is if they start beheading atheists. Atheists aren't humans anyway.

I know history; I know social science. I know by experience the pressure of conformity. I know, also by experience, that there are a great multitude in this lovely country that believe with all their hearts that Christianity IS morality and that is fundamentally unable to comprehend that one who is not Christian, or if they're a little more tolerant, not "religious," can be in any way moral, and therefore equal. They literally cannot comprehend it. Left alone to exercise that hateful ignorance, and we can really call it death to America.

And the civil rights movement struggled so very, very hard to enshrine legal defenses against this blindness, this self-centered ethnocentrism. Oh, to see the work of heroes torn down by fools, and to see its defenders play the little semantics game.

You know where the case happened? A small town in New York. This isn't Brooklyn, where diversity keeps racism and blind ignorance in (some) check. Small town America is where you get people who can't comprehend non-Christians. This is where the strengths of the division between church and state, the strongly enforced secularism, the anti-racist, anti-discrimination civil right legislation are needed the most. And the five old fucks have just put another knife into these very important defenses.

[monster]

If there is enforcement of the prayer, then people should complain. Otherwise, peer pressure can be avoided by clarifying the voluntary nature.

[Irenicus]

Are you that naive or do you love playing the stupid straightedge game that these so-called "justices" are trying to play?

Let's have one brave city councillor refuse to bow his head in that shitty prayer. Let's see how long he lasts as councillor. Actually, let's see if he doesn't get thrown out with some random Robert's rule book dug up from 1910 because he doesn't "show respect" within twenty seconds.

Let's see if I go into a town meeting and start citing Satanic rites. Let's see how I avoid my neighbors' bullying, harassing, and the Christian sheriff turning a blind eye as my life turns to shit. Let's see if I try cite the Book of the Dead if I won't be charged with bullshit disorderly conduct charges.

Let's see how the real world actually works. Let's see why we need those defenses and the 5 reactionary justices on the worst Supreme Court in history (you can't imagine how many shitty 5-4 fuck America decisions they've shat out) are savaging it.

Actually, let's see how a public prayer is meant to accommodate atheists, at all (and I'm being extremely generous assuming that there's any shred of evidence -- there's none -- that this particular case's public prayer is in anyway properly pluralist and inclusive of other religious traditions).

No, this is Christianity for Christianity, and Jesus Died For Your Sins (no, of course not, I didn't ask the bastard).

[monster]

Sure, let's see. (Oh, and I'm not saying that the prayers are pluralist in nature. They may not have been intended to be.)

[Sugetsu]

And the US continues its downward slope towards an oligarchy...

A smart gun has been developed in Germany that restricts its use solely to the owner. The NRA and its conservative lackeys have done everything in their power to stop such a gun from being sold in this country, and so far they have been successful.

Originally Posted by NRA

"NRA recognizes that the 'smart guns' issue clearly has the potential to mesh with the anti-gunner's agenda, opening the door to a ban on all guns that do not possess the government-required technology,"

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/smart-gu...uphill-battle/

"Death to America!"

Edit: By the way, at least 4 of the 9 supreme court justices are in the pocket of the oligarchs already, it is no secret.

[Ithekro]

And there would be a large segment of the population that would say "Good. That's our national identity, and losing it is what is breaking the country from being great into being not so great". They would probably also say something about if you don't like it, leave.

I've run into plenty of Christians of different denominations that are very upset at the course the country is taking by "bowing down" to outside religions and laws. That is one reason they are called "conservative" They want to conserve what was, by their definition, better. Or at least viable. They see the way of diversity as a losing battle that will break the country as it loses its identity, and eventually gets swallowed by some other nationality/culture that will outnumber the old majority: white/Christians. They aren't so much against other peoples, as long as those peoples more or less conform to what they consider to be American. The Civil Rights movement and Women's Liberation were eventually accepted because while they were designed to bring diverse people into the mainstream, it was so that all could be part of the mainstream. It wasn't to allow others to remain "other" in society. It was to allow those that were not allowed into the mainstream to be let in. To be considered equal as American.

What it did not address was what happens if what was considered "other" tried to influence the mainstream and alter it to become something else. The conservatives do not want the mainstream to change direction...especially those that are nationalist or constitutionalist. They are very much against change to the national identity and against the government tampering with the Constitution without going thought the proper procedures (the long voting process or procedures to add Ammendments to the Constitution).

Almost all those that are in the rather upset catagory that I encounter are Baby Boomers, though some are also older segments of Generation X that grew up in the 70s. I'm part of the later segment of Generation X as I grew up mostly in the 80s and early 90s.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

I don't have a problem with people having a sense of national identity, until they actually get their identity wrong. USA is not a Christian nation, it is just a nation with a lot of Christians in it. Most Conservatives are not interested in conserving the old ways, because most of them have no idea what the old ways were. They just want to conserve their OWN ways, with complete disregard for history and what the old ways actually were.

There was a recent argument that the Founding Fathers did not consider non-Christian faiths as part of the freedom of religion. This is actually factually wrong as it is written in paper and ink that multiple faiths including Muslims were named as being included.

But does that matter to Conservatives? Of course not. Because they don't care about conserving anything. It's not like they ever read their own history.

[Fireminer]

Britain is a 'post-Christian' country, says former Archbishop

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Fireminer

Britain is a 'post-Christian' country, says former Archbishop

Britain is a special case. It does, officially, have a State Religion.
However it is NOT "Christian". It is Anglican.

And it is very dishonest to call Britain a Christian nation when so many have literally died fighting over the Christian denominations.

I will have no problem if Britain declares itself an Anglican country. But we all know they would not dare. Because that would mean actually enforcing religious beliefs rather than pandering to religious nutcases. And we will have a civil war in our hands.

[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by Sugetsu

And the US continues its downward slope towards an oligarchy...

A smart gun has been developed in Germany that restricts its use solely to the owner. The NRA and its conservative lackeys have done everything in their power to stop such a gun from being sold in this country, and so far they have been successful.



http://www.cbsnews.com/news/smart-gu...uphill-battle/

"Death to America!"

Edit: By the way, at least 4 of the 9 supreme court justices are in the pocket of the oligarchs already, it is no secret.

As someone "pro-gun rights", I have to say, f*** the NRA !

[Hiss13]

Originally Posted by Irenicus

The United States Supreme Court is famous for hating freedom. Like, really, really hating freedom.

First was instituting plutocracy through corporate personhood, then the legalization of fucktons-of-money-as-speech, and then it's the utter destruction of net neutrality, and now, ladies and gentlemen,

Public prayer at town hall meetings is confirmed legal. Cutting through all the flimsy pluralist excuses bullshit (like that'll happen), America once again sanctions evangelical peer pressure in the most insidious of places -- where citizens technically have the right to have their voices heard, as equals.

Hahahaha, nope. Checkmate, atheists. And Jews.

Death to America.

So much facepalm. As usual...the vocal minority of Christian fundamentalists strikes again.
Them an their crazy persecution complexes. For them, if they lose their power over others, they feel that they are being persecuted. Cry me an ocean, will ya?

Originally Posted by Sugetsu

And the US continues its downward slope towards an oligarchy...

A smart gun has been developed in Germany that restricts its use solely to the owner. The NRA and its conservative lackeys have done everything in their power to stop such a gun from being sold in this country, and so far they have been successful.



http://www.cbsnews.com/news/smart-gu...uphill-battle/

"Death to America!"

Edit: By the way, at least 4 of the 9 supreme court justices are in the pocket of the oligarchs already, it is no secret.

Another reason to hate the NRA. The NRA, as I see it, is not a pro-gun rights group but an anti-American total Anarchist group within the country that has way too much power.

With regards to the Supreme Court (Scalia is a hypocritical, inconsistent jackass)...it's not just the Judicial Branch. It's the entire government.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Hiss13

So much facepalm. As usual...the vocal minority of Christian fundamentalists strikes again.
Them an their crazy persecution complexes. For them, if they lose their power over others, they feel that they are being persecuted. Cry me an ocean, will ya?

You do realize it's not the Christians who are (or first started) crying foul here, don't you?

[Hiss13]

Originally Posted by monster

You do realize it's not the Christians who are (first started) crying foul here, don't you?

And this is why I should read the thing before commenting rather than quickly skimming...There goes my show of stupidity...

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Britain is a special case. It does, officially, have a State Religion.
However it is NOT "Christian". It is Anglican.

Of course, Anglicans are Christians. High Church Anglican liturgy is not very far removed from the Roman Catholic Mass either. The list of Christian "denominations" is quite long, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._denominations, and includes Swedenborgians, Anabaptists, Quakers, and Mormons.

I'll just note in passing that I thought yesterday's Supreme Court decision on Greece, NY, was the worst handed down this term. I've vented elsewhere, so I'll just leave it at that.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Of course, Anglicans are Christians. High Church Anglican liturgy is not very far removed from the Roman Catholic Mass either. The list of Christian "denominations" is quite long, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._denominations, and includes Swedenborgians, Anabaptists, Quakers, and Mormons.

I'll just note in passing that I thought yesterday's Supreme Court decision on Greece, NY, was the worst handed down this term. I've vented elsewhere, so I'll just leave it at that.

By that argument, Satanists are Christians too. My point is that Britain is NOT "Christian", because if it were it would have Canterbery speaking for all Christians in the country. And we both know that is not the case. Pretending denominations don't exist is a popular deception to make a religion seem unified. 6 years in a Private School, and with a Christian Education class every week, and yet they never bothered to tell us the difference between Anglican and Catholic. I even asked the Reverent after graduation what denomination the school was. He told me it is Anglican because he is a Reverant. And that if he was Catholic he would be called Father. I told him he never bothered to teach us the difference. For 6 years.

[SaintessHeart]

@ VCV : It is REVEREND. A Revenant is a type of zombie.

[Fireminer]

Yes, yes, but what if they truly has a national religion?

Life of an atheist in a fundamentalist country

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

@ VCV : It is REVEREND. A Revenant is a type of zombie.

I caught the mistake but didn't bother to fix it; because back in my school days I thought they were the same thing. And that just seems relevant to the topic at hand. That religious studies avoid talking about itself as much as it can.

[Ithekro]

Anglican is a sub-set of Protestant which is a subset of Christianity.

That still defines it as a Christian nation.

It has been a long time since the break from the Catholic Church and not quite as long since the Puritan and Quakers left for the New World.