[Manga] Chapter 398 Discussion

[ChojinLocke]

Originally Posted by Rezard

Wait a second. In theory, Kakashi must kill his best friend to archive the MS or kill Obito's best friend?It is not his eye! I think he needed to kill Obito's best friend.

No. Kakashi took the eye of an uchiha who was still alive at the time of the transplant. The uchiha later died and because it was Kakashi's best friend he got the MS (albeit later since he needed to develop the 3 tomoes first). The sequence of events is important to understand.

1. Eye transplant - kakashi becomes uchiha hybrid.
2. Obito dies - Kakashi gets the MS.
3. Kakashi develops the MS technique.

[Kage_Spyke]

Choujin seems to have a valid idea here that make ssense to me. thats why the MS is different because he isnt an uchiha so the Sharingan when reaching MS wouldnt be the same it would mutate to suit the body of kakashi.

[HiroInazuma]

Originally Posted by mayhem

Could itachi have been trying to protect sasuke from madara the body snatcher?


Anyone else think that peins true identy is written in one of jiraya's books and the code he sent out was something like along the lines of[ page, chapter, paragragh, line, word...ect

How could he write it in if he did not even know Pein's secret? He though Nagato, Yahiko and Konan were dead?

And why would Kishi put another body snatcher when there is oro? It would just get old

[james0246]

Originally Posted by ChojinLocke

No. Kakashi took the eye of an uchiha who was still alive at the time of the transplant. The uchiha later died and because it was Kakashi's best friend he got the MS (albeit later since he needed to develop the 3 tomoes first). The sequence of events is important to understand.

1. Eye transplant - kakashi becomes uchiha hybrid.
2. Obito dies - Kakashi gets the MS.
3. Kakashi develops the MS technique.

While you certainly have an interesting idea, in fact I would say this theory has a high chance of being corret (or at least something close to it), there are a few problems or at least questions that need to be answered. (The numbered format I am using is not a correlation to your numbered 'timeline'.)

1.) do you need to have all three tomoe before you can advance to MS? Specifically, everything said of the Mangekyo Sharingan so far does not indicate that the Sharingan eyes has to have a specific number of tomoe before it can be advanced to the next stage. Rather the "emotion" ala the process of killing your friend (or something similiar to that) is explained as the key factor, and the only prerequisite is to have the Sharingan, not to have a fully formed Sharingan.

To put it another way, is it possible for a two-tomoe eye to develop the MS? I do not think that we have been told one way or another regarding this particular question. But, if a two-tomoe eye can become a MS, then your point about Kakashi needing to advance his eye before he could use the MS becomes false (as well as your # 3 point).

2.) Itachi descibed his MS techniques as being almost immediately activated when he killed Shisui (Susanoo was developed a day later) or (if this is speculation) at least the techniqiues were almost immediately usable for the massacre a month or so later, so why would Kakashi need 15 or so years to develop his MS techniques, if he had them since the time he "killed" Obito? Even if you account for the fact that Kakashi becomes a hybrid (which I am unsure if he could be considered a hybrid) 15 years is a little long to 'discover' his MS technique(s) (or even, say 10 years or whenever he developed the third tomoe). Additionally, since he seems to have some knowledge of the MS, he should have been actively trying to attain it/use it, ever since he gained the knowledge of the MS, rather, until recently, he has been unable to (which indicates that he only gained the MS recently, as opposed to having it since Obito's death).

Now, it could be postulated that Kakashi was only able to attain the MS after he finally came to terms with his involvement with Obito's death. Specifically, maybe he was unable to attain the MS because he did not blame himself for Obito's death, rather he blamed himself for the situation, but not his actual death. But, during the three years, he finally decided that he was the sole one responsible for Obito's death, which caused the evolution. Then again, the reverse could be trues as well, maybe he blamed himself for Obito's death, but it was only when he could finally admit to himself that he was not responsible that his Sharingan could evolve. (I do not know if I believe either theory, but they at least make up for the fact that Kakashi only recently attained the MS.)

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by james3wk

I have always had trouble with the argument that an event that creates a "deep emotional effect" is all that is needed to attain the MS. Undoubtedly that is how Kakashi has and then later Sasuke will attain the MS, but the fact that they get the MS because they "feel" deeply always struck me as a little silly. It is like implying that Sasuke and Kakashi are the only Sharingan wielders that ever had human emotions, or at least emotions that carried over from one moment to the next. Did no other Uchiha in the history of the clan every regret something later on in life, or become depressed about something after the mission was over? If this is how Sasuke and Kakashi gain their MS, then I guess the Uchiha clan was more f*ck*d up than I thought .

As an emotion it's probably something quite specific, since the feeling of killing your best friend (and doing it willingly, not by accident) is very specific, so there are probably only a very few emotionally similar events. For example Sasuke killing Sakura would be similar, or someone killing his own parents or children. However i think there is another requirement that defines this specific emotion: two friends should be also rivals who compete for the same crown. So there's also an emotion of fighting someone equal to you and killing him. There are some myths that if you kill a strong warrior his power/soul will make you stronger. If you look at the sharingan it seems like the logic of "leveling up" is the same as for saiyans was the battle to the death (nearly dying):
- Sasuke/Obito gain 2 tomoe sharingan in a fight to the death
- Sasuke gains 3 tomoe sharingan in a fight against Naruto
- MS gained by fighting with best friend who is also a rival
- EMS gained by fighting/killing brother
It seems like you need certain levels of the emotional effect that these situations cause to level up your ability. But the specific emotional effects may be achieved in different ways.
What Madara was telling in the latest chapter is that he was constantly fighting and getting stronger, seeking more and more power he did sacrifice everybody near to him.

Assuming that Itachi was willing to sacrifice his clan for the "greater good" and he also loved Sasuke deeply i think this could also happen:
Itachi realized that Madara will sooner or later destroy Konoha now that even the 4th hokage is dead. He knew of Madara's existence because Madara did make him fight Shishui, but when Itachi killed him and gained MS he understood everything and turned against Madara. It's probable that after Itachi turned against Madara Madara had contacted other Uchiha and he began to spread his ideas amogst the Uchiha. Itachi did realize that he is weaker than Madara, who has the EMS and who knows what else.
Itachi did see only one solution to become stronger than Madara: he had to become even stronger by killing his whole clan (including Sasuke) and gaining an even stronger MS than Madara's so can save the Leaf village from Madara. He started to execute his plan but his love for Sasuke was stronger than he was thinking and he couldn't kill Sasuke. He also knew that Sasuke has an even greater capacity than his, so he opted for plan B: make Sasuke stronger than Madara. Itachi's plan B: make Sasuke kill his best friend (Naruto) to gain MS, make Sasuke kill his brother to gain EMS (that's why he lied to Sasuke about everything), give Sasuke all his powers (amaterasu, susano with artifacts), make him hate Madara by telling him that Madara was the other one to kill the clan. And finally Sasuke kills Madara and happy end for Konoha But since Sasuke refused to kill Naruto this logic failed.

I think it was Madara who turned evil Pein, so that Jiraiya didn't even recognize him, i wonder if he can make the same thing with Sasuke, it would also be a nice illustration of how he managed to turn Pein evil.

[Spectacular_Insanity]

Originally Posted by james3wk

2.) Itachi descibed his MS techniques as being almost immediately activated when he killed Shisui (Susanoo was developed a day later) or (if this is speculation) at least the techniqiues were almost immediately usable for the massacre a month or so later, so why would Kakashi need 15 or so years to develop his MS techniques, if he had them since the time he "killed" Obito? Even if you account for the fact that Kakashi becomes a hybrid (which I am unsure if he could be considered a hybrid) 15 years is a little long to 'discover' his MS technique(s) (or even, say 10 years or whenever he developed the third tomoe). Additionally, since he seems to have some knowledge of the MS, he should have been actively trying to attain it/use it, ever since he gained the knowledge of the MS, rather, until recently, he has been unable to (which indicates that he only gained the MS recently, as opposed to having it since Obito's death).

Now, it could be postulated that Kakashi was only able to attain the MS after he finally came to terms with his involvement with Obito's death. Specifically, maybe he was unable to attain the MS because he did not blame himself for Obito's death, rather he blamed himself for the situation, but not his actual death. But, during the three years, he finally decided that he was the sole one responsible for Obito's death, which caused the evolution. Then again, the reverse could be trues as well, maybe he blamed himself for Obito's death, but it was only when he could finally admit to himself that he was not responsible that his Sharingan could evolve. (I do not know if I believe either theory, but they at least make up for the fact that Kakashi only recently attained the MS.)

You make very good points, but the fact is, we just can't know for sure because although Kakashi has the Sharingan, he doesn't possess the Kekkei Genkai, which is why it puts such a strain on him to use the normal Sharingan, much less the MS. The fact is, because he's not an Uchiha, it might be that he had to actively train his Sharingan in addition to coming to terms with Obito's death.

Also, let's not forget that Itachi had already long mastered his Sharingan when he kill Shisui and when he was going about slaughtering his clan, whereas Kakashi had only just received his. In fact, Obito might have already been dead by the time the eye was fully implanted AND functional. After all, I doubt he'd been able to use it right after receiving it, right? Wouldn't he need some time to recover after the emergency battlefield surgery? Just a thought, in any case.

That's my input, anyway. I could be wrong.

[james0246]

^Ero-Senn1n, I agree with almost everything you have said, my sole problem is the idea that Kakashi and Sasuke being able to feel emotionally about something that happened in the past lets them attain the MS. The Sharingan leveling up mid-battle is what it was made to do, arguing that Kakashi and now Sasuke are going to be able to reflect on their emotions (whether it be guilt, or whatever) on an action they performed in the past, and then gaining the MS, is what I have a problem with. Otherwise, your theories are very much aligned with my own (I would give you some rep, but I seem to ahve given some to you recently ).

[Slave0fLife]

If it's only the emotion of having killed the best friend that you need, wouldn't you be able to gain the MS by thinking you killed your best friend (example: push your friend off a cliff, you don't know if he is dead or not but think it's impossible to survive, so you feel as if you killed him)? Or in a crafty genjutsu? How would the eye simply "know" that you killed someone or not? Or have these questions already been debated on some other thread?

[mayhem]

Originally Posted by HiroInazuma

How could he write it in if he did not even know Pein's secret? He though Nagato, Yahiko and Konan were dead?

And why would Kishi put another body snatcher when there is oro? It would just get old

Actually your wrong he does say he knows who it was....re-read chapter 382- and don't tell someone they're wrong just because you forgot something

And he very well could have written about it as he came across them, seeing as all the shinobi he fought under pein he met at one time.

The sage said he will come across a difficult choice and the path he takes will determine the fate of the world.

That he will travel the globe and write a book ( this was the way in which he met many of the characters of pein)
And the number code he relays I believe could be a code to the book he wrote giving information on peins identity.

[james0246]

I just realized something, we might get to see the Kakuzu v. Shodai battle (I am unsure if the battle was supposed to take place before or after the creation of Konoha). That could be a lot of fun (it might even redeem Naruto if Kakuzu is a complete idiot in his fight with Shodai ).

[Last of the Uchihas]

Originally Posted by james3wk

I just realized something, we might get to see the Kakuzu v. Shodai battle (I am unsure if the battle was supposed to take place before or after the creation of Konoha). That could be a lot of fun (it might even redeem Naruto if Kakuzu is a complete idiot in his fight with Shodai ).

there is no way to redeem that.;P

Kakuzu wouldn't hold a candle against Shodai and Kakuzu would have killed Naruto if it wasn't for Kakashi and Yamato.

[Kagesama]

The uchiha clan was up to something either by control of madara or by themselves and they were evil and using itachi as a link to the rest of the village as a spy. Little did they know itachi was a double agent and true alliance was with the leaf under orders to get in close with madara and kill him which he could not do becuz he was not powerful enough. when leaf village heard of some plot the uchiha was up to, itachi was ordered to kill them for the sake of the village. Itachi couldnt kill his little brother because sasuke had nothing to do with the plot and was innocent and he loved him so he left him live against orders. Itachi didnt know that madara knew he was really a spy.

when sasuke hears all this from madara he will join madaras cause simple to kill the leaf higher ups ultimately leading him against naruto....

just a guess..im prolly wrong...

[skurai]

I highly doubt kakashi gain his sharingan powers because he came to terms with obito's death.
He decided to go for that power after the fight with itachi in konoha.
I highly doubt he killed a close fren to gain it as well.
There has to be some other way to attain it.

For one thing, kakashi's sharingan abilities seem different from itachi's.
Its just on the same level. Itachi's is probably stronger anyways since he is a real uchicha.

Killing your best fren =MS.
Its probably something u gain when u do something that shows that u are not bound by feelings anymore. Kakashi probably managed that in a different manner.
I dont think its about doing a very evil deed cause kakashi gain it, and he aint evil.

[tatami]

Originally Posted by Last of the Uchihas

there is no way to redeem that.;P

Kakuzu wouldn't hold a candle against Shodai and Kakuzu would have killed Naruto if it wasn't for Kakashi and Yamato.

well he survived didnt he

shame he was dumbed down...

I would give my entie anime collection just to see kakuzu vs naruto 1 on 1

[quebas]

With all this hype on the 1st Hokage, does this mean that the 1st was the best ninja on konoha?? If that's true it doesn't make sense because allways in the series we have been hinted as the 4th being the best ninja ever. I remember Kakashi saying he belived naruto would be the one to surpass the 4th, it doesn't make sense saying that someone will be the one to surpass another person, if that person was already surpassed!!!

[tatami]

Originally Posted by quebas

With all this hype on the 1st Hokage, does this mean that the 1st was the best ninja on konoha?? If that's true it doesn't make sense because allways in the series we have been hinted as the 4th being the best ninja ever. I remember Kakashi saying he belived naruto would be the one to surpass the 4th, it doesn't make sense saying that someone will be the one to surpass another person, if that person was already surpassed!!!

well shodai was one of the best in his time to think that it was a war era and 2 of them were the best clans and he happened to beat the other clans leader madara at least once.

naruto surpassing 4th is open to debate that in which way and what mentality.

also 4th was one of the best in his time too...

[Davitz]

is therre a chapter this week?

[HiroInazuma]

Originally Posted by mayhem

Actually your wrong he does say he knows who it was....re-read chapter 382- and don't tell someone they're wrong just because you forgot something

And he very well could have written about it as he came across them, seeing as all the shinobi he fought under pein he met at one time.

The sage said he will come across a difficult choice and the path he takes will determine the fate of the world.

That he will travel the globe and write a book ( this was the way in which he met many of the characters of pein)
And the number code he relays I believe could be a code to the book he wrote giving information on peins identity.

1) No I am not wrong, when he said 'I KNOW YOU'RE IDENTITY PEIN!!!' he just realized it he did not even know Pein had the rin'negan until that encounter and with that said all your other points are null unless somehow Pein did a Hiro Nakamura, travelled to the future saw who Pein was and wrote it down in a book (which I highly doubt) therefore he could not have wrote Pein's secret down in one of his past books.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Davitz

is therre a chapter this week?

No.

Originally Posted by HiroInazuma

1) No I am not wrong, when he said 'I KNOW YOU'RE IDENTITY PEIN!!!' he just realized it he did not even know Pein had the rin'negan until that encounter and with that said all your other points are null unless somehow Pein did a Hiro Nakamura, travelled to the future saw who Pein was and wrote it down in a book (which I highly doubt) therefore he could not have wrote Pein's secret down in one of his past books.

I think you lost me somewhere after your 5th word.
Jiraiya stating he had discovered Pain's true indentity and that he absolutely had to pass the information before dying is irrelevant to whether he knew Pain's true identity?
That's some mighty reasoning here.

[HiroInazuma]

Originally Posted by Hunter

No.

I think you lost me somewhere after your 5th word.
Jiraiya stating he had discovered Pain's true indentity and that he absolutely had to pass the information before dying is irrelevant to whether he knew Pain's true identity?
That's some mighty reasoning here.

Huh?

What I was saying that Jiraiya could not have known the truth about Pein as he did not know who Pein was yet and could not write the truth about Pein's identity in his previous books.