2012-10-24, 22:02 | Link #801 |
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However you look at it, Kyubey's assessment of Madoka's wish was wrong. I had to dig a bit, but I found my speculah from the episode 10 thread. I still think it's fairly accurate. Here's why.
1. Madoka's brother can not only remember her, but he can visualize her. Not supposed to be possible. 2. Madoka's mother is nostalgic over the name Madoka, picks up on the ribbons. 3. The Incubators can't explain how the gems vanish, meaning that they still intended the system to turn girls into Witches, but can't make it work due to Madoka's interference. So until they can figure it out, they're on plan b, which they consider to be inefficient. Kyubey is still Kyubey, in the end, and Homura's explanation could be the key to unlocking their mad science in this universe too. 4. Madoka cannot interact on the physical plane except to collect Gems before they break. She shouldn't be able to talk to Homura, but she did. So my speculation is basically this: Madoka's wish solved the immediate problems of the system, but it did not solve the problem of the system itself. Outside of the threat of Walpurgis and the girls turning into Witches being removed, everything else is essentially the same. The girls still despair and die, Witches are replaced with Demons, Kyubey is still exploiting young girls to power the universe, and Sayaka is still a fool. So yay, bittersweet victory, at a high price - Madoka ceases to exist as a human. But Madoka can see all now, and she promises a miracle. Out on a limb speculation incoming: the end credits of the movie shows an outline of a possible Godoka with a fetal "person" near her stomach, implying pregnancy. I haven't seen the image (if someone is able to find and post it, please do so under tags), but I think if we're dealing with Buddhist themes, perhaps it's not pregnancy, but reincarnation. As in, the "rebirth" of Madoka into the mortal world. Consider that if Kyubey circumvents her wish, that basically nullifies it. She no longer is bound by the wish. This is essentially what happened to Homura's wish: Madoka isn't technically dead, and she can't die or turn into a Witch, so there's no need for Homura to protect her anymore. Wish granted, except it's more like it was nulled because it was cancelled out by Madoka's wish. In turn Kyubey (or some other force) brings back Witches in another form not covered by Madoka's wish, so there's no reason for Madoka to remain as she is. Her old wish was granted, those Witches are now gone and replaced with a new type of Witch. This also changes the parameter of her Wish. This isn't the universe she wished for - one free of all Witches. So a new universe has overridden hers, one where they exist again. This introduces all sorts of possibilities, like Sayaka living again. Remember that for all of the magic, at its heart the mechanics of the story are still based heavily on science fiction. So in a way, we're right back to the initial problem which couldn't be solved by merely wishing it away or taking the burden entirely onto oneself: the system itself. I hope this jumbled mess of thoughts makes some sense to others.
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2012-10-24, 22:16 | Link #802 | ||
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Your idea is very fun though, and aside from the thing with the Incubators, I have no real issues with it aside from the previous concern about negating the merits of the original series.
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2012-10-24, 22:56 | Link #803 |
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Let me rephrase that a bit then. It's not that they planned on creating Witches, but that what they were essentially after was the Gem becoming filled with energy and bursting open. It's implied they tried to do this and cannot, so they use a slower (to them) method of collecting energy using the cubes.
Was it a light in that scene? It's hard to know what all of the descriptions floating about. The ones I read mentioned silhouette of a person. Ah well, I'm still keen to the idea. Then again, we debated a lot about the ED of the anime too, and like the OP it didn't turn out to mean much really.
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2012-10-24, 23:11 | Link #804 |
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Well, personally, I defiantly don't want Madoka to reincarnate. That would really ruin the story for me. Her story story arc is done. She did what she needed and wanted to do. Now is time for the others, and specially Homura, to step up to the plate.
That said, I don't even think it's possible for Madoka to reincarnate. Homura's wish was nullified by a wish from a magical girl with more power than her (Madoka). To nullify Madoka's wish they would need even more power, and neither the Incubators, nor any potential magical girl should have that kinda power. Kyubey told Madoka multiple times that he had never seen a potential magical girl with so much power... and let's face it, the events that led to her having that power were pretty unique.
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2012-10-24 at 23:27. |
2012-10-24, 23:35 | Link #805 |
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I don't agree that her arc is done. You could just as easily argue Homura's is done too, or any of the other characters. Although I'm not trying to be too literal with the word reincarnation. I'm just going with all the rumors and tossing out fun (hopefully?) speculation. Really there's no way to discuss anything concrete until we get non-teaser material, so we may as well get it out of our system now.
Besides, it'll be fun to look back and see how close we got. Maybe one of us ends up being right after all?
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2012-10-24, 23:47 | Link #806 |
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I have to agree that Madoka really shouldn't come back in some capacity like that. If she does, she'll be having her cake and eating it too in a universe that really discourages those sorts of deals, and if she comes back at the price of undoing her wish?
...Well, fuck literally everything about that. That's just bullshit retcon revisionism that undermines the entire anime.
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2012-10-25, 00:34 | Link #807 | |
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The movie is the prefect opportunity to close her story. She already has a stated goal: to protect Madoka's world. The movie can cover that without retconing anything, but to bring Madoka back into the game they would need to undone what the story already covered. Unlike Madoka's story, Homura's is still open.
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2012-10-25, 01:40 | Link #809 | ||
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The movie says "wait wait, that's not really the ending" and adds stuff to the story to keep it going. What happens in the movie, right now, is completely up in the air. It could just as easily be about Sayaka being a foolish Zombie Witch who has returned from the dead by mad scientist Incubator experiments. We don't know. Quote:
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2012-10-25, 02:00 | Link #810 |
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Homura's still ALIVE, for starters. Madoka is an omniscient being that has escaped causality and the universe. Homura still has beliefs that can be challenged, hopes to achieve, fears to overcome, a life to live, and lessons to learn. And like Kazu said pretty succintly, Homura still hasn't achieved anything under her own merits.
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2012-10-25, 02:27 | Link #811 | |
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I must have watched a different ending. The Madoka I saw was full of life. Why are you arguing like it's either or? Is it not possible to have a story where all characters can grow? I get the feeling that the reason you don't want Madoka in the story is more about your desire to have Homura be the main character than any speculation on what the story could be about. Achieved under her own merits? I wouldn't call the resolution satisfactory for either of them, but Homura did achieve part of her goal - Madoka is protected. The time she spent watching her friends die over and over was what allowed Madoka to break fate. If it wasn't for Homura, everyone would be dead, permanently.
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2012-10-25, 03:02 | Link #812 | ||
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She couldn't save the girl, not in the way she want it to, and that's why she decided to protect her world instead. That's good enough premise to explore in the movie, and they don't need to mess with what the series already covered to do so.
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2012-10-25 at 03:34. |
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2012-10-25, 03:27 | Link #813 | |||
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No, you're completely wrong. I don't really care who plays protagonist other than the fact that Madoka really shouldn't because she's no longer in a frame of reference we can relate to. Humans can't empathize with whatever business real gods are up to. She has more in common with Cthulhu now than she does with us, despite her benevolence and human empathy. Quote:
Homura was not okay with that. She's coping with it, but it's not what her goal was, and it's very easy to conclude that she still feels she's compensating for having technically failed. It's just that she understands and respects Madoka's choices enough, and tries to have faith in her like she asked. And it's not like it's really because of Homura herself that any of this all came about. It was a side-effect of her actions in a way she could've never fathomed. Her involvement in Madoka's ascension is much too passive to be a proper resolution. There's no narrative triumph in having the protagonist succeed by bumbling about and finding the Win Button on accident. and Madoka's wish was a Win Button. Madoka's pressing it was intentional, but her having the Win Button to press was a random fuckup on Homura's part. The fact of the matter is that Homura is not self-actualized, like Madoka is. Even Sayaka can be argued to have self-actualized in her afterlife scene with Madoka and Kyousuke, but Homura is basically settling.
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2012-10-25, 05:21 | Link #814 | |||||||||
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Until the system is dealt with properly, there is no real miracle, no happy ending. All Madoka's wish really did was buy time. Quote:
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Regardless, all I was doing was pondering the ending of the anime, and noting the inconsistencies between Kyubey's analysis of Madoka's wish and what really happened, my own analysis from episode 10 and how it might tie into the return of Witches despite her wish, and finally extrapolating an admittedly out there scenario in which Madoka can return to Homura as a mortal being instead of being stuck on some other plane of existence. I'm not really sure where you guys got the idea that I was playing down Homura's role, or playing up Madoka's, or anything like that. As I said before, until we get more information, everything is pretty much up in the air, anything and everything could happen. Heck, I'm sure people are arguing in circles about Sayaka being back from the dead or not, somewhere on the internet.
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2012-10-25, 13:02 | Link #815 | |
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Madoka Magica Films Had Weekend's 2nd Best Screen Average in U.S.
Double feature in 5 U.S. cities earns US$62,340 during October 19-21 weekend
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2012-10-25, 13:08 | Link #816 |
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ANN review here:
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/revi...e-movie-part-2
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2012-10-25, 14:40 | Link #817 | |||
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It's not really a grown-up thing to do to just write off someone's interpretation as baseless just because you disagree with it. I've provided multiple pieces of evidence that make my line of reasoning at least followable and valid. Quote:
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2012-10-25, 16:50 | Link #820 | |||
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We know all five girls, plus Hitomi and likely others in the secondary cast, will play important roles in the story. We also know that the story will be Mado-Homu centric, because that's where the story ended and the movie will take place shortly after Madoka's wish. I'm ultimately not concerned about the writing, Gen has proven himself capable. I'm more curious about plot mechanics. Is the Sayaka in the trailer a flashback, or is she alive again? What role will the other girls play? How will Homura's powers and the wings be explained? How did the Witches return? When I said pause button, it's because Madoka didn't really win. Just like Homura, all she really ended up doing was putting a pause button on the doom scenario. Her wish defeats the immediate issues of Walpurgis and her own Witch from destroying everything, and it helps save the girls from the nasty fate of becoming Witches as well. However it still leaves the system, and all of the despair, and the most insidious element intact: Kyubey. In my episode 10 speculation, I surmised that Homura had to meet certain criteria to win, and she hasn't done this yet. Madoka's state is a problem, actually, because she only treated the immediate problems, but the long term ones remain. She became hope, but hope is just an ideal. It's almost like she upgraded to becoming the ultimate passive player. Yeah she saved lives, but she's not really any closer to bringing anyone true happiness or a miracle than Homura is to her goals. If anything will be explored as a premise in the movie, I suspect it will be that none of these characters have really achieved much despite their struggles. Perhaps that is a bit of Gen's own worldviews creeping in, that you cannot solve big problems by taking them upon yourself. It's too big of a burden/job for any one person to handle.
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