2006-04-14, 15:17 | Link #43 | |
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2006-04-14, 15:28 | Link #44 |
The Commissar Vanishes
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AnimeNewsNetwork is fan-maitained, so it's, basically, whatever floats their boat. Unlike factual infromation, genre is a very subjective category. Depends on the POV.
I am still rather baffled at the idea of "sci-fi josei". What does it even mean? Girls like sci-fi now? Since when? |
2006-04-14, 15:28 | Link #45 | |
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How odd! (sorry for the redundant post, I spent ages trying to work out what the hell was up with the manga and didn't see musouka's until I'd posted...) Last edited by BluWacky; 2006-04-14 at 15:43. |
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2006-04-14, 15:41 | Link #46 | |
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Since ages, in Japan at least - Natsumi Itsuki is no stranger to sci-fi, and her previous manga OZ (set post-World War III) won the Seiunsho prize for best sci-fi manga (for any audience) in 1993. Reiko Shimizu's Kaguya Hime (genetic clones) won the Shogakukan award for best shoujo manga in 2002, Moto Hagio's classic They Were Eleven (which has been animated) from 1975, Saki Hiwatari's Please Save My Earth... Most of it isn't hardcore reverse-the-polarity sci-fi or anything; a lot of shoujo sci-fi is more "fantasy" than technobabble as far as I can tell, or maybe it's just that my tastes lie generally more towards fantasy so that's what I've tended to read (I'm not a HUGE manga fan generally, so I'm not that good on suggesting stuff that fits the bill). Most of it wouldn't be considered "girly" in the West at all. But then different cultures, different categorisations, yadda yadda yadda |
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2006-04-14, 16:00 | Link #47 | |
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"Josei" is, by definition, an audience of young college-aged women. When we say that "this anime is josei", we mean that it is aimed at that specific core audience (I am saying "core" because I doubt most of us here are Japanese women, aged 18-25, but we still kinda like the show ). Also, when we are saying that "this anime is josei", we are implying several qualities of that anime, mostly relating to plot and characters. For the most part, those qualities are similar to qualities of shoujo anime (which is aimed at mid-high school girls), but adapted for the different age. It mostly means: suave and debonair bishounen, girl power, a slightly more mature approach to love and love life (including sex) and other stuff from a similar category. Science Fiction is not one of those qualities of josei that we usually take for granted, mostly because the core audience of josei is not very much interested in sci-fi. When you say that "Natsumi Itsuki is no stranger to sci-fi", it only means that she is not trying to reach a regular josei audience, but is, in fact, widening her approach to her readers, making her stories interesting to wider variety of readers. So, when we are saying that "Jyu-Oh-Sei" is a "sci-fi josei", we are being redundant. It's simply josei because it's targeted at the josei audience. However, a "seinen" audience (think: josei, but for guys) likes smart sci-fi, so the sci-fi element of Jyu-Oh-Sei is targeted not at young women, but, in fact, at young men. So, by saing "sci-fi josei" we are also being misleading, because we imply that sci-fi is a quality that the josei audience appreciates in josei. It is not, trust me! What would be a much better desciption is. It's not josei, and it's not "sci-fi josei", but it's a "seinen/josei" mix, with different aspects aimed at different audiences. Cute guys for the ladies, intriguing sci-fi plot for the gentlemen. When mixed in reasonable proportions, as Jyu-Oh-Sei seems to be, it produces a show that sattisfies both audiences. And that's my point, in a bit too much detail. 8) |
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2006-04-14, 16:05 | Link #48 | |
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What I'm thinking of here is Barbara Ikai (by Hagio Moto). It was serialized in Flower Comics, but published under a different label, and size, than your average Flower Comic series. It's also shelved under the "ladies" stuff in the bookstore. I think perhaps Juuousei is a similar case. As for the shoujo/jousei sci-fi thing, I'm afraid you've opened a huge can of worms in front of me. Sorry, I'll try to keep it short. In fact, I'll just say that when some of Ray Bradbury's short stories aimed at boys were turned into manga, they were published in a girl's magazine. Shoujo sci-fi was bigger in the 80's I think, and BluWacky is right in that it's not so much "hard sci-fi", but I wouldn't go so far as to call it "fantasy-ish". I'd really love to see Shimizu's "Jack and Elena" series animated, which is about a pair of immortal robots. In fact, after watching Juuousei, I desperately would like to see some of her 80's sci-fi animated, because Juuousei really reminded me of some of her stuff... EDIT: But Juuousei isn't aimed at a seinen audience. And I think it's silly to assume that "women don't like sci-fi, so that aspect must be aimed at male readers." |
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2006-04-14, 16:13 | Link #49 | ||
The Commissar Vanishes
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I am not trying to generalize ALL women or ALL men here, but a majority of a sample of women we are talking about would probably not like sci-fi compared to a similar sample of men. Same is true in reverse. There are guys who like when a series has beautifully designed male characters (and it has nothing to do with sexual orientation). Some of us are just drawn to an aestheticaly pleasing rendition of a person, male or female. But, it would be wrong to say that a majority of guys would like a certain anime because there are bishounen in it, is that not correct? PS: We seem to be arguing semantics quite a lot here, aren't we? 8) BluWacky is correct that I was somewhat flippant at the begining, but now that I've rationalized my argument, I am standing by it. |
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2006-04-14, 16:23 | Link #50 | |||
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2006-04-14, 16:37 | Link #51 | ||
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Please refer back to my post above where I am trying to make a point that Jyu-Oh-Sei is a series that is aimed at both seinen and jousei and has elements to attract both these audiences, not just the women. Quote:
Here's one, but, honestly, I wouldn't pay much attention, because: a) it's beyond the scope of our discussion (which is a specific anime), b) you are correct that we aren't discussing a Western audience, and c) I've found similar studies claiming the exact opposite. |
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2006-04-14, 17:27 | Link #52 |
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Well, in one of your examples, you said that most guys won't want to read something with a bunch of bishounen characters in it. While I disagree--look at your average shounen manga cast--what I'm trying to say is that having a cast full of bishounen doesn't mean that the series is aimed at girls as well as guys.
Likewise, having sci-fi in a series doesn't mean you are specifically trying to attract a male audience, or that it is supposed to appeal to a male audience. Whether or not guys enjoy it is inconsequencial. Take Banana Fish for example, which is a shoujo manga about long, drawn out gang wars with rough, almost Otomo-ish art. While it proved popular with both genders, it was still a girl's manga aimed at girls. There is nothing wrong with guys reading and enjoying it, but that doesn't make them the target audience. |
2006-04-14, 18:01 | Link #53 | |||
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The point is: it's not as straight-forward as you are putting it. A series can have different aspects that appeal to different audiences, while still maintaining their fanbase with a specific, male or female, audience. Or it can mix both in equal proportion, inducing it with multi-gender appeal. Take something like "Fist of the North Star" as a another example. See any bishounen there? See any elements that appeal to girls? I don't, because that show is not trying to attract a female audience, concentrating only on a male one. That's pure shounen, while BLEACH is a mixed show. Quote:
This is what market segmentation is all about. The whole reasons why demographic-based genres like shounen, shoujo, seinen, jousei exist is to create an illusory segment in the market made up entirely of, for example, high school girls. Then you find out what those high school girls generally like and do it for them. They like an anime with bishounen? Create an anime with bishounen and target it exactly toward that market. In our case we have: 1) a seinen audience. That audience likes sci-fi. So you create a show with sci-fi targeted at that specific audience. 2) a jousei audience. That audience likes pretty boys and mature love. So you create a show with pretty boys and mature love targeted at that specific audience. 3) Then you combine these two premises in a single package, and voila, you have "Jyu-Oh-Sei". That's how a business operates. Creative people (director, screenwriter, storyboarder) might think: "Oh, let's make a cool anime everyone will love". Business people (producers, TV station, venture capital firms) think: "OK, what kind of anime would reach the most people, would be most marketable and would produce the biggest sales of merchandise?". And since business people pay the creative people, that's usually how it starts. Well, business people also try to keep creative people in the dark about these things, because creative people have their "creative process" and they hate the idea of selling-out, but behind the scenes, that's the way it's done usually. Quote:
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2006-04-14, 18:35 | Link #54 |
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Let's stop arguing about what type of show it is :|.
Personally I think it's gonna be an awesome show. Sorta like Madmax on a futuristic planet with every man for themself. The 2 brothers look as though they might fight each other as well if the op is right. Oh yeah and Tofusensei thinks the OP REALLY sucks. Sorta like a bad backstreet boys song -gumbaloom |
2006-04-14, 18:52 | Link #55 | ||
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Are these aspects purposeful? I think in some cases they are, but generally, I think you see more of them in shounen/seinen works than you do shoujo, and that's mainly because shounen is more widely read in general, regardless of gender. In that respect, it makes more sense to me for a shounen work to be "I'll throw a pretty boy here for the ladies reading my stuff" than a shoujo work to be "I'll throw in [insert something guys would like here] because there are just tons of guys scrambling to buy the next LaLa magazine!" (hint: there aren't) And you still haven't given me a reason that sci-fi would specifically be aimed at guys instead of girls beyond a nebulous "guys like sci-fi better". I'm sorry, but I don't think "adding sci-fi = aiming at guys". Quote:
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2006-04-14, 19:06 | Link #56 | |||
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And I might have argeed that Jyu-Oh-Sei is a jousei show, but I definitely do not argee that it's shoujo. It looks a bit too smart for the standard mid-teenage girls (who are the main partakers in shoujo). Are you going to say that Parakiss is also shoujo? Quote:
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Last edited by MrProphet; 2006-04-14 at 19:17. |
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2006-04-14, 19:19 | Link #57 | |||
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This argument is really strange. Are you going to claim shoujo horror isn't shoujo because traditionally guys seem to like horror more than girls do? Quote:
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2006-04-14, 19:30 | Link #58 | ||
The Commissar Vanishes
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The real bottom line, though, is that I've been trying hard, writing now-seemigly pointless posts, trying to offer and explain my arguments, but I seem to be wrong because you just have a different opinion. What a colossal waste of time... |
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2006-04-14, 19:43 | Link #59 | |||
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2006-04-14, 20:01 | Link #60 | |||
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Listen, I don't want to argue anymore, because I feel like I am going in circles. Pretty much all of what I am trying to say I've already stated. Spoiler for Long and Final say on the matter:
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