Toradora! - Episode 11 Discussion / Poll

[Kinny Riddle]

If the aim of this first part is to get viewers unfamiliar with the novel to misunderstand Taiga even more just by observing only from her behavior in this episode, then this episode has succeeded in doing so, seeing some of the rather uninformed and even unfair backlash you guys have dished out at her.

All I'll say is she will come good, but saying anymore will incur the wrath of these fickle mods.

[Nukerjsr]

This was a very interesting episode for everyone. I have a few hangups on it, but I still am amazed by what exactly happened.

I'm on the side that Taiga's dad really wants to change and support his daughter. It's hard to tell though on who was at fault during the whole abandonment. (Both, most likely) You can tell though that he really does care. Think of it this way, if he still hated her then there are so many opportunities where he could leave her high and dry. Like taking away all of her money. Not to mention that after he got savagely kicked in the balls, he didn't shout back at her. He wanted to hug her because he really cares.

Ryuuji was also very impressive, showing his anger and proving to the audience that he gets angry at the public or his friends. It gives some light towards his character. (I'm also a bit curious about what Inko-chan said. Different mother? Hmm...)

I do feel a bit more irritated by that classroom though. Can't you leave Taiga and Ryuuji alone for a second? Especially since Ryuuji was willing to help during the whole cultural festival decision. I don't get the logic that you nominate Taiga for the beauty contest and then you make her the villain for this play. It's just getting annoying how the classroom is sinking in on them. Ami is improving a little, she isn't quite as mean and there were a few subtle hints to her liking Ryuuji. (You always take her side...) Minori...was just there and being random again. -_-

And I don't feel sorry at all for Yuri-sensei. You are a leftover Christmas Cake and now she's going to let the entire class suffer because of her personal life. I wish Japan didn't put this much pressure on women just because this is so unnecessary. Taiga also reached an incredibly high level of insolence, but we can forgive her for that since she did get it through her head. So that's a positive I guess.

I'm giving this an 8/10 particularly because of the plot and Ryuuji. They are just so serious and fascinating that it gives the series a nice shine.

[wistfulloner]

To tell the truth, I didn't really notice the animation defects the first time i watched. But after i was informed of its degrading quality, i decided to scrutinize the episode, and there were a few flaws...

For one, Taiga looked too mature for half the time, and looked awkward for the other half. Before she went on fighting with Ami, you could see her face wasn't right; it did not look at all like the Taiga we all know. Also, if you noticed Ryuuji when Taiga hands her track pants to him, you will notice that his hair is unproportionally large compared to his face. The two major flaws lay with Taiga and Ryuuji, the other characters were decent enough. These flaws don't break the story, but they look very weird, as though it was rushed and not edited.

Its as though the entire team responsible for this episode was swapped with another more inferior one(more nicely put, one with a different artistic approach). If that's so, the problem will continue. I don't know whether to expect this sort below average quality for the next few episodes.

On the story side, i could not help but notice Taiga suddenly becoming extremely aggressive and unfriendly this episode. Could be because of the incident with her father, but she didn't have to take it out on Ryuuji....

But overall the story and the ending in particular, were brilliant. This episode creates the setting for the final episodes. Really looking forward to them, hope the mess gets cleaned up.

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by wistfulloner

On the story side, i could not help but notice Taiga suddenly becoming extremely aggressive and unfriendly this episode. Could be because of the incident with her father, but she didn't have to take it out on Ryuuji....

But of course there is a reason for that - while Ryuji's intention was good, he is in effect meddling into affairs which is has absolutely no clue about and forcing his ideals onto Taiga, as he himself had noted at the end. In reality, he doesn't know the full story of why Taiga and her father broke up, he doesn't even know Taiga's father except for the 15 or so minutes he had spend and he had taken Taiga's father's word almost too trustingly simply because he had project his own dream of having a caring father onto Taiga, and what Taiga's father did, his pleads and talks hit all the right buttons for Ryuji hence he automatically felt sorry for the man and assumed that Taiga was in the wrong for shunting her father. Ryuji wanted to think that there is something good between Taiga and her father without knowing the full extent of their relationship, and that is what rubbed Taiga the wrong way. Taiga is angry because Ryuji doesn't trust her, even though they had spent so much time together, as Taiga had expressed in the end.

We haven't seen the full story yet, so don't be like Ryuji and fault Taiga so soon.

[physics223]

Of course I was saddened by the lack of Ami focus during this episode, but I was still glad because the episode put Taiga, at least for me, into a more favorable light. I cannot totally understand the anger and rejection she felt from being unwelcome; the fact that she attempted to reconcile with her father because of Ryuuji was simply beautiful. While there are still 14 episodes to go, it has established itself to be one of the best series this year offered, even when it's still unfinished. I'm just hoping that it doesn't pale into mediocrity during the second part of the series, as I have never been as engrossed and as addicted to a series as this one.

While I'm still wishing for more Ami-centric episodes, I really don't mind all that much even with Taiga-centric episodes such as these. Such is the brilliance of the series that one cannot help but appreciate all of the women despite rooting for a specific one.

[stormy001_M1A2]

For me simple moral baseline is clear:

No matter how much hate or how bad the circumstances around the relationship is, as long as you taking money from this individual, you have to maintain a minimum courtesy with him/her. Kicking the groin is not definitely not the way to go about it.

Hence my views despite Ryuji was projecting his wishes in the end.

But as Houkoholic said, wait until the arc finished.

[wistfulloner]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

But of course there is a reason for that - while Ryuji's intention was good, he is in effect meddling into affairs which is has absolutely no clue about and forcing his ideals onto Taiga, as he himself had noted at the end. In reality, he doesn't know the full story of why Taiga and her father broke up, he doesn't even know Taiga's father except for the 15 or so minutes he had spend and he had taken Taiga's father's word almost too trustingly simply because he had project his own dream of having a caring father onto Taiga, and what Taiga's father did, his pleads and talks hit all the right buttons for Ryuji hence he automatically felt sorry for the man and assumed that Taiga was in the wrong for shunting her father. Ryuji wanted to think that there is something good between Taiga and her father without knowing the full extent of their relationship, and that is what rubbed Taiga the wrong way. Taiga is angry because Ryuji doesn't trust her, even though they had spent so much time together, as Taiga had expressed in the end.

We haven't seen the full story yet, so don't be like Ryuji and fault Taiga so soon.

Yea but even if the father was at fault, I don't think Taiga should have lashed out at Ryuuji when he mentioned her father. Ok sure, that's her personality but she goes a little overboard, even without the intense segment at the end. If she's mad with her father, Ryuuji shouldn't be the punching bag.

Perhaps Ryuuji had been a bit too pressing and uncaring of how Taiga felt, since he really was making quite a few assumptions about her attitude. Then again, Taiga knows that Ryuuji is fatherless. She should understand his outbursts, shouldn't she?

Maybe its just the way she is...

[Sixth]

In this episode, Taiga is in her unfriendly and aggressive mode in the whole episode while Ryuji actually shown his expression and anger in the same episode.

I understand why Ryuji is acting like that because he obviously look to see his daddy..and that why he trying his hardest to project all his thought and wish onto Taiga without considering her feeling. No wonder, Taiga look down in the end.

I wonder, is her father really look innocent as his look? Who know, he probably going to abuse Taiga once they reached their home.

[NighAligned]

Ryuuji certainly has a strange relationship towards his father. He acts like he despises the type of man his father was, and maybe he does, but that one scene where he looked at his picture with melancholy in an earlier episode and this ending scene say otherwise. I wonder how old Ryuuji was when his father died; I don't think that they ever mentioned it. In my experience, people who grow up without a father don't seem too bothered by it—unless you pity them for it, maybe.

Also, I don't see the big deal over Ryuuji grabbing Taiga, considering how physical she's been with him and her father. Guess it's still taboo for a guy to manhandle a girl whereas it's funny to kick a guy in the nads. I'm actually glad to see him be a little forceful, especially since this is very much his business too now. She has to at least TALK to her father, since he is still paying her bills.

EDIT: The last paragraph probably will be misunderstood. I merely meant that it appears one-sided to me for people to laugh at a person (even a girl) slapping around a guy all day, even in jest, and then condemn a guy for getting a little physical to get a point across to someone he cares for. Of course, I concede that the realities of domestic abuse and the differences between men and women in physical strength, make people wary of condoning a man ever laying a hand on a woman with any seriousness. I think it is a more subtle matter dependent on the situation, but that is my opinion.

[wistfulloner]

Originally Posted by noobita

In this episode, Taiga is in her unfriendly and aggressive mode in the whole episode while Ryuji actually shown his expression and anger in the same episode.

I understand why Ryuji is acting like that because he obviously look to see his daddy..and that why he trying his hardest to project all his thought and wish onto Taiga without considering her feeling. No wonder, Taiga look down in the end.

I wonder, is her father really look innocent as his look? Who know, he probably going to abuse Taiga once they reached their home.

LOL, no, i don't think he's really that much of a guy who would wish harm on his own daughter...

Although he's a fairly decent guy, I'm somewhat suspicious of his sudden return too. Eh, whats the use of all these conspiracy theories? We'll just have to wait for next week to see...

[KeitaroNagato]

Originally Posted by stormy001_M1A2

In this scene, Taiga is not listening to reason anymore and try to bully her way out of it. Sometimes, force has to be met with force for right cause. I don't see how Ryuji was wrong in this part. Is your adoration for Taiga blinded you to what is right or wrong?

The manhandling is mild, considering most people will just slap Taiga silly in similar situation. I know I would.

Manhandling for me is out of the question. If a guy tries to be like that towards me, even slap me, I wouldnt tolerate it. I believe there is a time and a place to handle situation that can be handle correspondingly.

I understand what you are saying, I also understand maybe 90% in AnimeSuki are male, and 10% like myself are female. Most comments on Ryuuji I'm assuming are male perspectives, my looks on those issues are a very sensitive topic. It's hard to even really talk about it, and to clearly state correctly about issues like that.

Fine, I understand Taiga that didnt wanted to talk to her dad...
Fine, I understand Ryuujji really cares for her, and wanted to help her...

Yet, Ryuuji could have approach differently, I'm not talking about how he would handle it, but with less physical force, without bruising her.

If the writers at JC-Staff left the bruising part out of the picture, I would have a different opinion.


Edit:
stormy001_M1A2;2103131,please forgive my runting, I do value your opinion as I value everyone else. Topic like this is very sensitive and a little hard to swallow for me. So please forgive me. I'm always looking forward on what everyone has to say, I love each comments and there will be a time that I will find some comments hard to reason, due to the sensitivity of the topic at hand. So please forgive my runting. And ps- I love you thou .... ^^

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by wistfulloner

Yea but even if the father was at fault, I don't think Taiga should have lashed out at Ryuuji when he mentioned her father. Ok sure, that's her personality but she goes a little overboard, even without the intense segment at the end. If she's mad with her father, Ryuuji shouldn't be the punching bag.

Perhaps Ryuuji had been a bit too pressing and uncaring of how Taiga felt, since he really was making quite a few assumptions about her attitude. Then again, Taiga knows that Ryuuji is fatherless. She should understand his outbursts, shouldn't she?

Maybe its just the way she is...

Taiga is angry at Ryuji for making assumptions not about her but her dad - which is apparent in how Ryuji defending her father at every turn of the conversation (no parent really hates their child etc). This is why it makes Taiga angry - because Ryuji has an idealised version of parenthood and forces that ideal on Taiga when Taiga had really been abandoned by her father before and thus Taiga had some very solid reasons to be angry at her father, yet Ryuji just ignores them because of his own dream, and thus Taiga is lashing out at him because of this.

This happens a lot in real life actually - sometimes kind words hurts people more than the speaker realises when the speaker don't know enough to make comments. Encouraging words turns into burdens, comforting words becomes pointed. There's a reason psychologists don't throw around assuming comments when counceling, and why negotiators listens more than they talk. Ryuji is partially to blame here because he made this mistake, he talked before he listened to Taiga's reasons.

[wistfulloner]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

Taiga is angry at Ryuji for making assumptions not about her but her dad - which is apparent in how Ryuji defending her father at every turn of the conversation (no parent really hates their child etc). This is why it makes Taiga angry - because Ryuji has an idealised version of parenthood and forces that ideal on Taiga when Taiga had really been abandoned by her father before and thus Taiga had some very solid reasons to be angry at her father, yet Ryuji just ignores them because of his own dream, and thus Taiga is lashing out at him because of this.

This happens a lot in real life actually - sometimes kind words hurts people more than the speaker realises when the speaker don't know enough to make comments. Encouraging words turns into burdens, comforting words becomes pointed. There's a reason psychologists don't throw around assuming comments when counceling, and why negotiators listens more than they talk. Ryuji is partially to blame here because he made this mistake, he talked before he listened to Taiga's reasons.

Yes, everything you said I understand, but what I'm trying to say is that EVEN THOUGH Ryuuji made a mistake of "talk first, ask questions later", Taiga was overreacting to the situation.

Its not an issue whether Ryuuji made a mistake or not, it is a fact that he is the one partially at fault. The thing here is that even if Taiga was pissed off with Ryuuji's insensitivity, she could calm down first and explain why she's pissed, not jab him immediately.

But as I've mentioned, its Taiga's personality here which caused her to blow up.

[NoOneKnowS]

Taiga - Someone who can't express her feelings well. Misunderstood and can't really open to the people who understands her well (like Ryuuji), That's a pretty though situation she's in. If she can't change (if we'd compare it to real life) I see Ryuuji just walking away on her. I mean, just look at EP9. It's more like, she'd be better off having friends who are indifferent/doesn't really care about her since she doesn't want anyone to mess w/ her personal life. Now here comes change, yes; unknowingly she's having more feelings for Ryuuji (be it romantically or whatever I don't care) At the last part or the EP, rather than for her dad, I really think Taiga went to talk w/ her dad since Ryuuji was almost on the verge of tears (him shouting out bout his dad never coming back; Did he even met the guy when he was alive I ask? I imagine he grew up w/o a father). So since Taiga doesn't want to see Ryuuji crying (And I'd expect her to not know what to do if it ever happens; since she's emotionally unstable) she agreed to come and talk to her father now. Well thats how I see it. Other than that.

The first half of the EP had me LMAO every minute. God I love this series.

[Caster13]

Originally Posted by Nenkitsune

I agree on this for sure. especially when Taiga finally gives in to Ryuuji and says that she'll go, and to stop making that face of his. sort of like in a way she was telling him "If you don't want to be with me that much, I'll go."

Certainly seems that way. I think maybe what she's most hurt by from this whole ordeal is how Ryuuji doesn't get, or at least doesn't acknowledge, that she doesn't need her father because she has him instead, that Ryuuji's become that important, dependable, and supportive of her.

Anyway, speaking of Ami. Anybody else get a sort of vibe that Ami was getting Aisaka involved in the beauty contest and the pro-wrestling play as a sort of round about way of to get Taiga to get involved with more people? After all, it gave Ryuuji the perfect chance to tell Taiga to stop being so introverted.

Also, Minori completely shooting down Ryuuji when he mentioned going UFO hunting seemed completely out of left field. It seems like a step back compared to what happened between the two in the last episode and it makes me wonder what's wrong with Minori.

[TwinRivers]

Ryuuji....you....kick....ass

[risingstar3110]

I actually thought Taiga's behavior in this Ep was normal. Didn't she always react that way?

Ryuuji and taiga have spent few months to half a year both at school and at home together, why Ryuuji still does not know anything about Taiga's past, i wonder (if that was the reason that she had her current personality)?

Didn't read the novel yet, but did Taiga know why Ryuuji like cleaning, or fell in love with Minorin? Or did she see any signs of how he thought about his mother, and his passed away father(which he bursted out this Ep)?

It will be strange if they spent all these time only to do houseworks(Ryuuji mostly) and throw all sorts of argument at each other. (if it mentioned in the novel, pls put into spoiler or something )

[Nukerjsr]

While he was wrong for meddling, you can't necessarily blame Ryuuji for getting into it. Taiga would openly refuse to answer the phone and just comment on how her father was a "Damned Old Man." She didn't really give an explanation, but mostly cursed about his name. And while she could of handled the matter, she made Ryuuji go to the cafe. Just because she spited him so much she couldn't make contact. She was being unreasonable to the breaking point for most people.

It just worries me about this because it makes you wonder if Taiga would want to continuely be Ryuuji's girlfriend if she becomes self-aware of her attitude. If she had decided to go through with her father solely because of Ryuuji, then that's rather odd. Then again though, we don't know for sure about the whole arguement. There could be some real issues with that family.

I feel like these kids have to deal with enough, but I wish school could be less of a pain against them. >_>

[maxpepper]

What I really want to know is what does Taiga's father mean by living with her again?

Does he plan to Live with Taiga next to Ryuuji?

Does he plan to take her back to his house once he divorces/kick's out Yuu?

Does he plan on getting a new place for the both of them?

I feel sad really. Even though Taiga has some issues on expressing her feelings, I believe out of the two of them (taiga + ryuuji) she will be the most affected by this "break-up". Or possibly this is the point where she realizes what her true feelings for Ryuuji are...

can't wait for next ep

[physics223]

Originally Posted by Caster13

Also, Minori completely shooting down Ryuuji when he mentioned going UFO hunting seemed completely out of left field. It seems like a step back compared to what happened between the two in the last episode and it makes me wonder what's wrong with Minori.

You could look upon that as Minori having become more sensitive now when being around Ryuuji. Unlike before, his presence already stirs something in her, so she doesn't want to talk things that are quite sensitive to both of them. I don't think that's a step backward; if anything, it enlightens the viewer of the change in Minori's perspective as regards Ryuuji. She no longer takes him for granted.