2013-03-14, 08:32 | Link #4641 | ||
Nyaaan~~
Join Date: Feb 2006
Age: 40
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Let me put this in simple terms: Miho upon seeing an incident occurs, as person in command, leaves her post and jumps to action herself -- A) The situation was dangerous (and rehashed via facts and counter-fact below) -- if they could not get out themselves then she would not be able to assist simply by herself and was therefore derelict of her own actual duty B) The situation was not dangerous and therefore her actions were completely unnecessary -- which means that she did not remain calm in a time of crisis and failed as a leader So, a military analog, is: -Platoon leader forsakes their command role and runs out to help someone that may or may not be in danger and leaves their platoon leaderless! How about a sports analog: -QB runs back preparing to throw, sees one of his linesmen completely demolished and instead of continuing to play runs over to see if he can help? Quote:
Look folks, people keep falling into differing tangents and drawing weak analogies to instances of "safety first!" "protect your comrades!" "ideals!" -- but these are not perfect analogies. Getting led into a strawman argument comparison is not what it's about. The question is this: was Miho's response based on the fact of the matter reasonable? Beyond a doubt? Did she perform her duty? Did she fail to perform her duty? tl;dr -- Stop getting emotional. It irritates me and I don't like feeling any emotion of any kind. Calm, cold, rational analysis shows that this young girl may not have made the right decision. People's opinions of an ancillary character (Shiho) based on their personal interpretations of that one instance have people acting uncivilized to actual human beings. Think about that, opinions about a show have got people acting poorly, and irrationally, towards other real persons.
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2013-03-14, 08:52 | Link #4642 | ||||
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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And yes, I'm well aware of the problems with the raid - I've see the movie multiple times, and I make it a point to read the book at least once a year. I was referring to the sentiments expressed. This is the fun-vee, the humdrum-vee is over there. Quote:
It's not even close to a difficult decision. You stop the exercise and ensure the safety of the crew in the tank in the river. Soldiers can and have died when their vehicle fell into water, so it's a complete no-brainer. Anyone who would continue a mere exercise and forgo the chance to ensure their safety has their priorities badly out of whack. In the Canadian Forces, they would be charged for negligence, and probably have criminal proceedings brought against them if any of the fallen tank's crew actually died while they continued to play war. And whether your assistance is actually physically needed is completely irrelevant. You do not have a crystal ball, you do not know whether your assistance is required. At worst, they do need assistance, and you are removing their chance of survival. At best, by continuing the exercise you are distracting others now dealing with serious real life problems, with your silly exercise bullshit. You stop training (this goes for BOTH sides in a force on force) and stand by to render any assistance to those in need as required. Quote:
You're also implicitly assuming that her radio operator is too incompetant to report the situation and advise Black Forest forces of the change in paradigm. Quote:
As for the questions you pose, I'd personally opine that her actions were reasonable, and that given that she saved the crew, I'd count that as a positive. As to performing her duty, that depends on how you would describe her duty: is it her duty to win the tournament, or is it also her duty to be responsible for her team members? As IXJac noted, any Canadian Forces member who'd ignore the crew would be up on charges. We can draw inferences from there. Miho performed her duty towards her subordinates. The only thing I'd add is that she should have really broadcasted some kind of emergency alert instruction, or a notification, though if one were charitable, one might hope that her crew would have enough initiative to do the same thing.
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2013-03-14, 09:09 | Link #4643 | ||
Nyaaan~~
Join Date: Feb 2006
Age: 40
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So, here's IXJac's statement above: 1) They can stop the exercise! -- No, they cannot, they were in a match. They lacked that authority. I don't even know if they could call for a stop to the match but the match based on the portrayal in the show was not stopped. This was not their decision to make. The Senshado organization did not stop the match. Either 1) because there was no real danger, 2) the danger is considered acceptable or 3) Senshado matches are simply not stopped? 2) Because of #1 above, people are attributing to Shiho and Miho respectively "Ruthlessness/Bloodthirst" and "Heroism" -- but why is this applied to the characters when they have no control over the situation? If anything the factum is that it is the "Senshado" organization that did not stop the match. The premise people assume is that people were in danger .. and even if they were or were not, Miho still acted recklessly as my statements above and previous (including factual discussions on tank hatches, underwater cars, etc.) As for "crystal ball" - this is addressed somewhat in IXJac's paragraph 2, which I will now address in point #3. 3) You don't know if you can help but you should go see anyways! -- Whoa, hold on there partner, as the leader of the platoon you must make calm impartial decisions. Running into help in an unnecessary circumstance will -- 1) disrupt the chain of command and 2) could potentially make things worse. From what we saw portrayed, Miho, upon seeing the tank go under jumped out of her tank and dived into the water. Her crew did nothing. No one else did anything. She left the chain of command absolutely paralyzed and dove underwater. Do I need to finish my thought? She could have drowned? She could have added to the lives needing to be rescued? One tank already fell into the water .. her abandoning her tank could have made the situation much much much worse. All we can assess is what we are shown on screen and any person looking at it coldly and dispassionately can see it was not decision making and leadership at it's finest. I am not debating ideals here folks -- I am discussing the facts of the matter as portrayed on a screen. It is unclear from the footage and dialogue that Miho was effective at all. If anything, based on my recollection, the only time I heard that Miho actually "saved" anyone was one of her current teammates at Oorai saying: "I'm sure they're happy you tried to save them" tl;dr -- People are forming opinions about Shiho and Miho's personality based on their own presumptions of this incident but failing to comprehend that the connection is tenuous at best or if seen from a different perspective then those opinions would be invalidated. All I am doing is reviewing facts and footage with a critical eye. I will admit here that I could very well be wrong. The next episodes may show Shiho standing up proclaiming: "Victory at all cost! I don't care if you girls die!" -- but somehow I doubt that. Same with Miho being a perfect depiction of a hero. A calm collected hero or a frail emotional young girl?
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2013-03-14, 09:45 | Link #4644 | |||||
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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Well, I'm glad that this disagreement and discussion is still cordial
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If I really wanted to be mean, I could theorize that the refs would have called a halt to the match, but Katyusha shot the flag tank just before the time out was called, so her win slipped by due to luck. Quote:
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That said, I admit that my approach was on the different paradigms, as I saw that to be the root causes. *shrugs* Quote:
Also, I must say, it's been a pleasure to have such a cordial discussion. ^_^
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2013-03-14, 10:26 | Link #4646 | |
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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...whoa. Whoa. The cake is not a lie. That's actually pretty sweet. Pun intended.
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2013-03-14, 10:28 | Link #4647 | |||||||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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How about C: The situation was in-between A&B, so they couldn't get out by themselves but if someone helps them they can. Or D: They couldn't get out for another reason, but it doesn't mean someone (even one) can't save them. Or E (which is probably closest to the truth): The situation was indeterminate and thus it is not possible for her to evaluate how much she can help. However, it is clear that if she can help and she delays helping, the overall chances of her help being useful goes down. Of course, it can be agreed that she did not take the best action. Certainly I agree that the chances she'll be able to do something will be massively increased if for example she ordered her whole platoon off their tanks and into the river (at the cost they'll also be put at some risk, admittedly). But then, no one pretends that Miho is the perfect commander, and even less so at that stage. Quote:
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It arguably isn't the best move. The best move would have been to use her platoon's (now only a section) manpower as well. But it is reasonable. Quote:
The smallness of the mission aside (it isn't even like Kuromorimine will fold up due to this loss), it is further cut by at least three possibilities: 1) At that point, she can stay in the tank, and the mission will still fail (based on the on-screen performance I think that's what will happen). In such a case, the only thing to do is to save what you might still be able to save ... the men. 2) In the opposite direction, she can leave the tank and the immediate task (fighting off the oncoming T-34/85s) would still get done. KMM is supposed to be the elite school and the enemy is only dead ahead. Is it too much to expect that if they aren't going to leave the tanks in an attempt to save their comrades, they can still take the correct actions without her intervention? Of course, it is more conventional to have other people go and do the "men" part, but duty is still fully served if the mission is done. 3) She can ignore her sinking tank and successfully fight off the Pravdan tanks, thus fulfilling her part of the mission if not her duty to the men, but it can all be rendered meaningless because KMM loses the larger battle. Go to 1. = Quote:
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But then, I don't think it is critically important whether she did or not. Even if she did, we can still look at the odds and say it was still a bad decision and she got lucky. And failure similarly may be no more than bad luck. I think the show deliberately shies from making it rock-clear, and inserts a few lines to imply she did to counter the natural doubt that such a petite little girl could have effected the rescue, aiming it to leave it close to 50-50 in the viewerships' minds. Quote:
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2013-03-14, 10:33 | Link #4648 | |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dai Korai Teikoku
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And really, if you're petty enough to not be able to back up your argument without resorting to insults such as bloodlust and sociopath first, this might have been a civil discussion without all the heat generated. You're just running away from the argument you started. Irresponsible, really. |
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2013-03-14, 10:41 | Link #4649 |
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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Y'know, I never really did get an answer to this question. If being in a tank that is submerged in a river that is fast flowing, and said tank is being swept away - if that situation is not directly life threatening, then what is? I'm honestly puzzled and curious as to how you would define a life threatening event.
That said, honesty compels me to admit that I'm sensitive to this issue, on account of how when I was 10, I was nearly swept away in a river, and very nearly drowned. No PTSD or anything like that, but I did wince painfully when I saw that tank go under. Also, girls? Can we please try and cool heads? It's not doing any of us favors, getting all worked up like this. Especially when some of us really need to sleep, but are now a little too worked up to do so.
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2013-03-14 at 10:45. Reason: Some clarification. |
2013-03-14, 10:48 | Link #4651 | ||
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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2013-03-14, 10:57 | Link #4652 | |||||
Nyaaan~~
Join Date: Feb 2006
Age: 40
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Overall the reason why this is focusing on the "danger" of the situation or the "potential danger" as depicted is whether Miho acted appropriately. I don't think anyone here truly believes that in a true life or death situation we would condone not providing assistance. [Unless we are shown that historically in Senshado competitions people die and it is deemed culturally to be an acceptable risk in this world -- then it would mean our fundamental value system doesn't apply to the world at large, which does not appear to be the case] If we ever do truly come to the conclusion that it was truly truly dangerous, then we also must question the Senshado organization for why 1) the battle wasn't stopped (could be timing?) and 2) why the resulting win by Pravda was not annulled based on the circumstances.
That said, applying all our rules of reality to this anime is kind of flawed thinking, they are shooting "fake shells" at each other but no one ever has concussions? No smoke inhalation? Gunpowder burns? Explosions? A commander standing exposed outside of the hatch while fire is going on is OK? If we consider the potential of Miho getting struck directly by a "fake shell" being acceptable I'm not sure you can attribute the same amount of danger of real life situations to this show at all. That may be why we have such divergent views on the danger of the situation. There is no clear real life analogy here folks. Quote:
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Anyways, I'm not cherry-picking my responses to you and suspect neither are you cherry-picking my points you are responding to of mine, ultimately though the question is not based on a fundamental difference in ideology but what we as 3rd persons are viewing a (fictional) situation and doing an evaluation of likely, desired and optimal outcomes and the actions of those participants therein. We disagree based on differing facts -- this will be resolved either with more information or will be left as a question for the ages.
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Last edited by willx; 2013-03-14 at 11:08. |
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2013-03-14, 11:03 | Link #4653 |
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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I should kinda point out that the implications of Little Army are a little troubling; a Black Forest tank was in trouble, opposing team flag went to the rescue, Maho shot them and won.
In this case, Black Forest tank is again in trouble, flag tank's TC goes to the rescue, snd Pravda takes the shot for the win. Might Pravda be assuming that Black Forest is deliberately generating incidents to underhandedly bait opposing teams? Afterall that's one conspiracy-laden interpretation of Little Army; we know that isn't the case, but other teams would surely speculate and wonder.
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2013-03-14, 11:20 | Link #4654 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dai Korai Teikoku
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2013-03-14, 11:30 | Link #4655 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dai Korai Teikoku
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Food for thought: Why does Shiho have such a strict view of Senshado? She is probably related to Nishizumi Kojiro (or this world's equivalent), a tank hero of the Sino-Japanese war, but that doesn't really explain why she is as "ruthless" as she is portrayed to be. Anyone have thoughts on this?
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2013-03-14, 16:01 | Link #4656 | ||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Let's say I see someone choking on his food. I'm not trained in the Heimlich maneuver, or any kind of rescue thing, so it's questionable if I could help. It's also possible the actual danger is nil, and the guy will be fine on his own. None of that changes the fact that the more I wait, the more likely I won't be able to help because the guy will be too dead for it. Maybe he's doomed anyway, or safe anyway, but assuming he is between those two extremes, the earlier I attempt to help, the more likely I am to succeed. Quote:
Besides, you're reaching. Miho may not have done the very best thing to rescue her team mates, but according to her detractors, what she did wrong was to try at all. To put her comrades' lives ahead of the game. Her supporters, OTOH, will argue that it doesn't matter if, a posteriori, we conclude that her help was unnecessary or if it was impossible to help to start with. What matters is that, based on what information she had, she had to try. That's the crux of the disagreement. |
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2013-03-14, 16:56 | Link #4658 | |||||||||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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2013-03-14, 17:09 | Link #4659 | |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dai Korai Teikoku
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2013-03-14, 17:19 | Link #4660 | ||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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It can be, but it really depends on the circumstances. Here, well, it mostly depends on how well she can swim.
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comedy, gup, original anime, slice of life, sports, tanks |
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