(L) Girls und Panzer

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

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Hmm... so who's driving the Tiger?

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

Hmm... so who's driving the Tiger?

I personally believe the PzIV will eventually be transferred to someone else and Miho would be handling the Tiger.

She has to, its the final showdown tank, if we are going by conventional route.

If I go by my own preference, she'd be in that Tiger P, join Maho later to beat Pravda and deal with her own demons. But thats just fantasy at this point...

- Tak

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

Leaving aside the question of Miho's responsibility..... Doesn't anyone find if strange how the front tank initially fell into the river? It seems Pravda intentionally fired in front of that tank to get it off the road in the first place. There were two shots, with the force basically pushing the tank off the cliff and thus exposing the flag tank. Could this be what people say about Pravda's vulgar tactics?

It's extremely unlikely that Pravda was trying to knock the Pz. III into the river. Tank rounds don't have that much momentum on a direct hit, and a near miss will barely do anything. Moving a 25 ton tank would need a lot more energy than that.

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

If we remember the ending of their match in the previous episode, we also realize that there were TWO white flags on a single tank, possibly from double/triple hitting the same tank before the initial knockout flag came up.

The reason the 7TP raised two flags is a play on it having two turrets.

Originally Posted by LoweGear

Someone posted a more comprehensive translation of the Senshado rules, including clarification:

Cool stuff. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Midonin

And the distinctions between Miho and Saki continue to bubble to the surface here. While Saki went down her path because she didn't want to stand out, Miho went down hers because she did - that Yoshika-like kindness towards saving absoloutely everybody. Nobody should die in sports, so I agree with her decision, especially as it was made in the heat of the moment.

The plot is still so Saki it hurts .

Originally Posted by Midonin

And if the first year girls (who still function more as a hive mind than any sort of defined character) are having love problems, high-quality yuri goggles are a perfectly acceptable solution... if I knew anything about them as people, I'd be right on it.

They weren't having love problems. It was all because boys didn't want to be associated with anything as girly as tanks!

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

It's not what she could have accomplished. The hatch itself is most likely bolted shut anyway.

Tank hatches were bolted to ward off enemy infantry. The sport doesn't have infantry, so it's probably left unbolted for safety reasons. I also like to think that Black Forest has a policy of not bolting their hatches to encourage tank commanders to stay unbuttoned.

Originally Posted by Tak

I personally believe the PzIV will eventually be transferred to someone else and Miho would be handling the Tiger.

It seems pretty common for the captain to be in something other than the strongest tank. Kay was in a 75mm Sherman while the preview shows Pravda's captain Katyusha in a T-34/85 instead of an IS-2.

Originally Posted by Tak

If I go by my own preference, she'd be in that Tiger P, join Maho later to beat Pravda and deal with her own demons. But thats just fantasy at this point...

- Tak

Isn't it just as conventional for the main character to have a sibling as the main goal? Anyways, it would have been unlikely for a German-inspired force to beat a Soviet-inspired one.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

It seems pretty common for the captain to be in something other than the strongest tank. Kay was in a 75mm Sherman while the preview shows Pravda's captain Katyusha in a T-34/85 instead of an IS-2.

We don't know what will come about, but I predict the final showdown would be Tiger vs Tiger. I cannot imagine Miho using the IV, up-gunned or not, to face her older sister (where is the epicness in that?). That is, if they are going the predictable route.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Isn't it just as conventional for the main character to have a sibling as the main goal?

I think its less conventional to have two characters who previously held grudges join forces to defeat a common foe (and I lose that term loosely, btw).

Its too predictable for Miho just level-up, face Maho and defeat her, which is what this story seemed to be headed. Not that I mind, but I rather the both of them return to better days.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Anyways, it would have been unlikely for a German-inspired force to beat a Soviet-inspired one.

Not really. I don't know about GuP, but I see it in many other places, all the time. Motofumi being the more extreme example (and thats just one of many).

- Tak

[Julio C]

Originally Posted by Tak

I personally believe the PzIV will eventually be transferred to someone else and Miho would be handling the Tiger.

She has to, its the final showdown tank, if we are going by conventional route.

If I go by my own preference, she'd be in that Tiger P, join Maho later to beat Pravda and deal with her own demons. But thats just fantasy at this point...

- Tak

Is the Tiger much more powerful or something? That's the first one they found in the latest episode right?

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Julio C

Is the Tiger much more powerful or something? That's the first one they found in the latest episode right?

It's the last one they found in the latest episode. The one hidden deep inside the ship, in the dark. And yes, the Tiger is more powerful and more durable than the Panzer IV. But not so much that I think it's necessary for our heroines to abandon the Panzer IV, especially now that it's got a gun upgrade. That's their tank. It's where they belong.

[Julio C]

I doubt they'll switch tanks as well. That gun upgrade is enough.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Tak

We don't know what will come about, but I predict the final showdown would be Tiger vs Tiger. I cannot imagine Miho using the IV, up-gunned or not, to face her older sister (where is the epicness in that?). That is, if they are going the predictable route.

Panzercraft is explicitly a team sport, so the one-on-one conflict isn't so important. Besides, the imagery of a Pz. IV beating a Tiger I fits with the rest of the show better.

Originally Posted by Tak

I think its less conventional to have two characters who previously held grudges join forces to defeat a common foe (and I lose that term loosely, btw).

Its too predictable for Miho just level-up, face Maho and defeat her, which is what this story seemed to be headed. Not that I mind, but I rather the both of them return to better days.

I don't think that there are any grudges held between Miho and Maho. Maho was disappointed in her little sister, but there's no indication that she blames her for anything. Likewise, Miho bears no animosity towards her big sister - she's just ashamed of letting her down. Miho did get ragged on, but it was Erika doing all the ragging.

I get the feeling that the reason Miho dropped out of Panzercraft is because she felt that she let her team down, and not as a result of anyone pressuring her to do so. Or at least not anyone in her family.

In any case, it'll come down to victory by employing superior tactics, not to whomever has the better gear.

Originally Posted by Tak

Not really. I don't know about GuP, but I see it in many other places, all the time. Motofumi being the more extreme example (and thats just one of many).

- Tak

There was only one war fought between Germany and the Soviet Union, and one of these sides lost very very badly. I wouldn't be surprised if anime/manga writers try to pretend that didn't happen though .

Originally Posted by Julio C

Is the Tiger much more powerful or something? That's the first one they found in the latest episode right?

On paper, a Porsche Tiger is a lot better than a Pz. IV. It has better armor and a better gun, but it's slower and far more prone to breaking down. With an upgraded gun, the Pz. Iv is a potent threat to most tanks though. Of the tanks fielded by their future opponents, it'll only have problems with Black Forest's Tiger I and lots of problems with Pravda's IS-2.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I wouldn't be surprised if anime/manga writers try to pretend that didn't happen though .

Eh, not at all. There is a large compilation of work centered on just that war alone where the Soviets are portrayed in a very, very negative light. That is, despite Germany actually losing, but still portrayed as noble heroes (occasionally with Finns playing a large role as well).

Besides, if manga authors pretend that didn't happen, we wouldn't have Black Forest's Germany losing to Pravda's Soviet Union in the first place.

Originally Posted by Julio C

Is the Tiger much more powerful or something? That's the first one they found in the latest episode right?

As 4tran pointed out, the Tiger P is very powerful on paper. The Porsche version never entered into mass production due to consistent mechanical difficulties, but it boasted a stronger overall armor than the Henschel version, which did enter into mass production with 1,300+ units produced throughout the war.

The IV would have difficulty dealing with any variant of the Tiger as it is now. Even with an upgrade to the 75mm, it'd still have a lot of trouble penetrating the Tiger's armor, if at all.

- Tak

[Chiaki_chan]

Spoiler for Darjeling:

Spoiler for Merry Chrismas:

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Tak

Eh, not at all. There is a large compilation of work centered on just that war alone where the Soviets are portrayed in a very, very negative light. That is, despite Germany actually losing, but still portrayed as noble heroes (occasionally with Finns playing a large role as well).

Perhaps "would have liked to forget it ever happened" is a better turn of phrase . Anyways, the noble heroes bit is partly what I meant - it's not accurate, and it's a bit stomache-turning. The Soviet Union had been a boogeyman for Japan since it came into being, and the few times they fought have been total curbstomps. So using Germans as a protagonists seems to be a useful substitute.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that Germans are portrayed as being more industrious and efficient and clever while the Soviets use more brutish and overwhelm by using superior numbers and more materiel. Whereas the reality is that Germany lost because the Soviets were better at almost every element of warfare: from strategy and manufacturing on down. Generalship is an especially telling factor - the Wehrmacht never had anyone who could match Vasilevsky or Rokossovsky.

Originally Posted by Tak

Besides, if manga authors pretend that didn't happen, we wouldn't have Black Forest's Germany losing to Pravda's Soviet Union in the first place.

Which team is going to the final again? To the credit of Girls und Panzer, it's a bit surprising to me how little Nazi fetishism appears in this show. Given the title (and other military-related works), I expected that it'd be a lot more pro-German equipment.

Originally Posted by Tak

As 4tran pointed out, the Tiger P is very powerful on paper. The Porsche version never entered into mass production due to consistent mechanical difficulties, but it boasted a stronger overall armor than the Henschel version, which did enter into mass production with 1,300+ units produced throughout the war.

By way of comparison, only one Porsche Tiger prototype was ever used as a tank in combat. The rest were turned into Elefant self-propelled guns.

[tarajis]

Originally Posted by Chiaki_chan

Spoiler for Darjeling:

Darjeeling looks great in Oarai uniform...


Can a Tiger be effective with only a 3-person crew? It seems that the Aardvark Team consist only of 3 girls... will they get the Tiger?

[aldw]

Originally Posted by tarajis

Can a Tiger be effective with only a 3-person crew? It seems that the Aardvark Team consist only of 3 girls... will they get the Tiger?

All heavy tanks had 4 or more crew and with good reason, especially when autoloaders aren't even available. Having a crew of only three is asking to be boomed in very short order...

[RRW]

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[tarajis]

Originally Posted by aldw

All heavy tanks had 4 or more crew and with good reason, especially when autoloaders aren't even available. Having a crew of only three is asking to be boomed in very short order...

Then too bad for the Aardvark Team... then why not give it to mechanics? they seem to have at least four members and I think someone mentioned a foreshadowing of a lion image for the mechanics crew... a Lion riding a Tiger...

With the mechanics driving the Tiger then the issue of breakdown is solved... a self-sustaining Tiger on the battlefield... not to mention field maintenance... there was no mention of field repair against the rules, right? as long as a tank is not deemed inoperable then it can be salvaged... of course only three mechanics can go out for repairs... they can't have their own tank deemed abandoned if all of them go out at the same time...

[Tak]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Anyways, the noble heroes bit is partly what I meant - it's not accurate, and it's a bit stomache-turning.

Absolutely, it is not accurate at all.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

The Soviet Union had been a boogeyman for Japan since it came into being, and the few times they fought have been total curbstomps. So using Germans as a protagonists seems to be a useful substitute.

I don't know about all battles being curbstomps. In the early 20th century, it was Japan scoring victory after one another over Russia. Sure, the engagements in Mongolia in the 30s provided a case where Japan could not stand up to Russia militarily, but since it was inconclusive, the experience never convinced Japan's collective psyche. Germans aren't substitutes, I tend to look at their portrayal as something bordering fantasy.

That, and the Japanese Army just don't get much positive press in Japan. Period.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that Germans are portrayed as being more industrious and efficient and clever while the Soviets use more brutish and overwhelm by using superior numbers and more materiel.

I have read more WW2-centric manga featuring Germans dealing with the desperation of holding Russia's relentless assaults than the stereotypes of them being industrious and efficient. Many authors for example, have no problems admitting the T-34 being a very efficient tank, exceeding the performance of Germany's closest counterpart. However, the Tiger and the Konigstiger are two completely different stories. Any crews operating those are elevated to knighthood almost by default. With the possible exception to the Panther, anyone operating anything less than a Tiger are nothing but grunts.

The Soviets being brutish & overwhelming numbers had truth to it. After all, the Soviets did in fact, significantly outnumber the Germans in many battles. Moreover, Zhukov was famous for having kept officers known to sacrifice large numbers of men in combat operations. It proved to him they were efficient.

While I am not going to excuse Germans from their war crimes, the Soviets were hardly saints. There were stories where the Red Army forced recently liberated Russian villages, mustering women & children to walk across German minefields and face machineguns just so it could make things easier for the Red Army. Efficient? Perhaps, but its brutally efficient.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Whereas the reality is that Germany lost because the Soviets were better at almost every element of warfare: from strategy and manufacturing on down. Generalship is an especially telling factor - the Wehrmacht never had anyone who could match Vasilevsky or Rokossovsky.

I am not too sure if I would agree with this completely. Its been widely accepted that if Hitler would begin his invasion several months prior to Operation Barbarossa, his chances for victory would have been significantly greater.

And what prompted Hitler to believe he could succeed in invading the Soviet Union? The Winter War, where the performance of Soviet generalship pretty much opened Hitler's eyes...

Originally Posted by 4Tran

To the credit of Girls und Panzer, it's a bit surprising to me how little Nazi fetishism appears in this show. Given the title (and other military-related works), I expected that it'd be a lot more pro-German equipment.

Reduced, but still present. Currently, the top scoring tanks for Oorai are the two German Panzers, the IV & Stug. Everything else almost exist for comedic relief.

And now they've found the Tiger...

- Tak

[Tulik]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that Germans are portrayed as being more industrious and efficient and clever while the Soviets use more brutish and overwhelm by using superior numbers and more materiel. Whereas the reality is that Germany lost because the Soviets were better at almost every element of warfare: from strategy and manufacturing on down. Generalship is an especially telling factor - the Wehrmacht never had anyone who could match Vasilevsky or Rokossovsky.

The bigest problem of the Wehrmacht was Adolf Hitler, not letting his generals do there job but giving stupid orders, beliving in some racist bullshit.
His military rank was "Gefreiten(Private First Class)" in WW1 and his position was "Meldegänger(messenger)", so he never was a match for 2 very good generals from russia.
Sowiet union hat superior number and more material, its no big deal to winn with all atwantages on one side.

[wontaek]

We are in WW2 talk again. couple of points I want to make

(1) Soviet victory in Manchuria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lake_Khasan)

The Japanese military, while taking the lesson seriously, was willing to engage with the Soviets once more, with disastrous results, in the more extensive Battle of Khalkhin Gol (Nomonhan) in the Soviet-Japanese Border War of 1939. The result of this engagement was the total defeat of the Japanese Sixth Army by the Soviets.

(2) Germany vs Soviet Union

It is doubtful Germany was ever capable of prolonged total warfare against Soviet Union. Furthermore, Germany would have been much better off concentrating their resources in the Western Front. For Germany to be in good enough state to beat USSR in lengthy engagement, they would need to secure cessation of hostilities in Western Front, thus become free to devote even more military resource in the East, AND rebuild industry and infrastructure in all the territory under their control, so they would have ample supplies in reserve. There are so many things Germany needed to do to properly fight in Russia for long enough time to subdue it, that even 10 years of extracting everything possible from most of the continental Europe, which were mostly in their control, may not have been enough. Thus I think starting offensive against USSR even earlier wouldn't likely have changed the outcome. While the intent is in dispute, you also need to consider that Germany had good reasons to be alarmed by continued buildup and forward deployment of Soviet Union Army.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_...ns_controversy

The Soviet offensive plans controversy refers to the debate among historians on the question of whether Soviet premier Joseph Stalin was planning to invade Germany prior to Operation Barbarossa.

(3) About Hitler : Most military expert agree that Germany would have been defeated even if Hitler let more capable generals and ministers do their work. An interesting point that was made by some historians is that Hitler's order to stand the group likely have prevented total rout from happening in 1942 as it slowed Soviet advances in some parts of the Eastern Front. It may be more accurate to blame Germany of starting a war impossible to win against USSR, than blaming Hitler's foolish meddling for the defeat.

[aldw]

Originally Posted by Tak

Absolutely, it is not accurate at all.



I don't know about all battles being curbstomps. In the early 20th century, it was Japan scoring victory after one another over Russia. Sure, the engagements in Mongolia in the 30s provided a case where Japan could not stand up to Russia militarily, but since it was inconclusive, the experience never convinced Japan's collective psyche. Germans aren't substitutes, I tend to look at their portrayal as something bordering fantasy.

The Soviet Union =/=Russia, which people mistakenly make all the time, and this is all the more telling as the Red Army in 1918 was a strong enough force to finalize the Japanese decision to withdraw their forces from the Russian Far East, compared to the general Imperial Army performance in 1905.

I am not too sure if I would agree with this completely. Its been widely accepted that if Hitler would begin his invasion several months prior to Operation Barbarossa, his chances for victory would have been significantly greater.

And what prompted Hitler to believe he could succeed in invading the Soviet Union? The Winter War, where the performance of Soviet generalship pretty much opened Hitler's eyes...

Adam Tooze's "The_Wages_of_Destruction" is a real eye opener on the economic planning of Nazi Germany during the War.

Originally Posted by Tulik

The bigest problem of the Wehrmacht was Adolf Hitler, not letting his generals do there job but giving stupid orders, beliving in some racist bullshit.
His military rank was "Gefreiten(Private First Class)" in WW1 and his position was "Meldegänger(messenger)", so he never was a match for 2 very good generals from russia.
Sowiet union hat superior number and more material, its no big deal to winn with all atwantages on one side.

Thing is that Hitler was the best strategist in the German High Command given that all of the German generals under his command were much like Ludendorff in terms of overly focusing on Operational Planning rather than understanding the greater strategic aims and action for the State. Ludwig Beck was one of the few German officers who could visualize the German strategic situation and chose to resign rather than implement Hitler's plans. At the same time, Stalin's only real merit over Hitler was knowing when not to interfere with the details of the Op-Level planning of his commanders rather than micromanaging units.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by aldw

The Soviet Union =/=Russia, which people mistakenly make all the time,

And Communist Chinese =/= Nationalist Chinese. Except from Japan's point of view, its military planners didn't care.

Hitler certainly didn't. In his Mein Kampf, the terms Bolsheviks, Slavs, Jews & Russians were often used interchangeably.

Originally Posted by aldw

and this is all the more telling as the Red Army in 1918 was a strong enough force to finalize the Japanese decision to withdraw their forces from the Russian Far East, compared to the general Imperial Army performance in 1905.

Again, because the subsequent defeats did not force Japan into a corner such as what the two atomic bombs did, the whole incident generally became a pad-themselves-in-the-back-moment thus preventing the little known conflict (even to Japan) that occurred in the 30s to be part of Japan's collective psyche.

Originally Posted by aldw

is a real eye opener on the economic planning of Nazi Germany during the War.

Indeed, but the book told me what most people already know. Germany simply had not the resources for a prolonged war against the Soviet Union, and the fast-approaching winter due to Hitler's delay of the invasion did not help. Hitler himself did not imagine a prolonged war against Stalin. His famous claim regarding the Soviet Union after witnessing the Winter War stated that Russia was like a rotten door, and a good kick would cause it to crumble.

Even Russian historians agree that, if Germany had marched all the way to Moscow, conquered the city, even if total victory could not be achieved, a negotiated peace in Germany's favor was a distinct possibility.

After learning the speed of Germany's advancement, Stalin too, contemplated the idea of a negotiated peace.

Thus I have to disagree w/the notion that Germany had no possibility of achieving victory purely due to its economic shortcomings.

Originally Posted by aldw

Thing is that Hitler was the best strategist in the German High Command given that all of the German generals under his command were much like Ludendorff in terms of overly focusing on Operational Planning rather than understanding the greater strategic aims and action for the State.

Except Hitler's chance for a negotiated peace even after the disaster of Stalingrad was extinguished after he committed to Operation Citadel. He should have listened to, you guessed it, Guderian.

- Tak