Shin Sekai Yori - Episode 20 Discussion / Poll

[kk2extreme]

Why did I think that the kid who threw rocks at Saki being the fiend?

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I honestly think it will be Kiromaru not Shisei who will be key. Remember Kiromaru is not dead, just missing. It would be very weird if he doesn't come back into the story in some way. And as a queer rat he actually can technically kill a fiend (even if it would be difficult).

We've barely seen anything from Shisei except he is an extremely powerful character but going by this stories themes it's the extremely powerful characters who end up losing because of their arrogance. Based on the preview Shisei doesn't seem to be an exception to that arrogance.

Because who else would be your convenient personification of the flaws in your sample society that you are making a story about?

[j4c06]

Makes me wonder why people only burn queerats, when it would make perfect sense to catch some alive and interrogate them. Especially in the face of their superior tactics. Given their current leader, they don't have a high chance to survive, and probably not all of them are kamikaze-minded. Or not afraid of gods, for that matter, after they were so afraid of them for generations.

[Arya]

Noo, Tomiko-chan! I hope there is a reason behind her decision. I mean, how hard would have been carrying a granny with them using cantus? there's no consideration for the elders
At this point I don't know what could eliminate the fiend. I mean, Tomiko-san seemed frank about that. They were lucky back then, so she was implying how Shisei doesn't have a chance against it now. So I can't see Satoru killing him either. Unless they'd be lucky this time too. All depends on how the fiend has been risen. Or better, from Who. If Maria and Mamoru died against Yakomaru as I hope, then this child has no real connection with humans. Instead if Maria got caught by Yakomaru maybe she rose him/her for a while. Instilling in him some memories of Saki somehow (?). Even if this would go against the fact that he gave back the bones. So, it's a very slight possibility.
In the end I also would bet on Saki going berserk for some reason. Gaining back her memories or for Satoru's death or both.

Anyways, if anything with this show and PP surely one thing is clear. Don't ever let you guard down even if you live in the most "peaceful" world or if you are the most powerful race of your world. eheeh Makishima and Yakomaru are two great villains, even if Yakomaru out-matches Makishima by far. Even if in this episode they went a bit too far, did he play with DNA? If that's true it's even possible that he cloned Maria. (Even if I don't think so).
I can't find a direct translation but in my language there's an idiomatic phrase that sound like dying like rats that fits, the irony, with the situation Yakomaru put humans in. Let's see if he will play the game of cat and mouse
Don' get me wrong, I hate him, but I can't deny that he is fascinating.

[White Manju Bun]

Originally Posted by j4c06

Makes me wonder why people only burn queerats, when it would make perfect sense to catch some alive and interrogate them. Especially in the face of their superior tactics. Given their current leader, they don't have a high chance to survive, and probably not all of them are kamikaze-minded. Or not afraid of gods, for that matter, after they were so afraid of them for generations.

I dont think most queerats can talk, I dont remember wht Yakomaru can, but I remember when the saved the two by the river neither could talk. So interrogating them probably wouldnt be of much use. Also Saki has already said how the humans saw themselves far above the queerats (even when the war started) so they wouldnt waste their time on them.

They did question Yakomaru but see where that got them...

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by White Manju Bun

I dont think most queerats can talk, I dont remember wht Yakomaru can, but I remember when the saved the two by the river neither could talk. So interrogating them probably wouldnt be of much use. Also Saki has already said how the humans saw themselves far above the queerats (even when the war started) so they wouldnt waste their time on them.

Most bakenezumi can't speak Japanese well enough to communicate with humans. They have their own language that they use among each other, and they all seem to understand human speech at least to some degree, but the overwhelming majority of them lack the talent (or physical capacity? it apparently takes most of them a huge effort to speak Japanese) to learn it well enough. There are very few that can speak as well as Kiroumaru and Squealer. And I suppose for a human learning the bakenezumi language would take at least as much effort as the other way around, and humans lack the motivation.

Originally Posted by Arya

Even if in this episode they went a bit too far, did he play with DNA?

FYI - his original colony, the Tsuchigumo had mutants (like, 3 meters tall monsters, the fuuseninu/exploding "dogs," etc.) way back when Squealer was just an officer. In the book Kiroumaru even remarks that there are a suspiciously high number of mutants among the Tsuchigumo, and he's surprised to see that the queen herself is technically one. According to Squealer, it's the queen who creates them, and the queen being the way she is is the fault of her mother, the previous queen. And Kiroumaru is like "...SO THIS MEANS... oh, I can't talk about it, not in front of children! :D "

[Kirarakim]

Btw is queerrat even an accurate translation. I think I kept saying that because of the fansubs but come to think of it Bakenezumi translated to Monster Rat correct? Or can bake also translate to queer?

I am just ignorant when it comes to the language and I'd like to be set straight in this instance?

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Btw is queerrat even an accurate translation. I think I kept saying that because of the fansubs but come to think of it Bakenezumi translated to Monster Rat correct? Or can bake also translate to queer?

I am just ignorant when it comes to the language and I'd like to be set straight in this instance?

I'm not that good at Japanese myself, but I researched that once (before I ever started watching Shin Sekai Yori.)

Obake/Bakemono are "monsters" (if loosely translated), but the origin of both words have different associations.

"Monster" comes from the latin root of "monere", which meens "to warn"; while "bakemono" comes from "bakeru", "to transform", or "to appear in disguise" (according to some online dictionaries; people who speak Japanese better than I do correct me).

My impression is that the name "bakenezumi" is supposed to make us think "looks like a rat but isn't quite one". Seen like that, "Queerrat" isn't that bad a translation, but it's missing the association to the type of "obake" who take the form of humans but aren't (kitsune, tanuki, and especially: bakeneko [due to having the actual "bake" in its name] etc.).

Anyone who speaks Japanese can correct me, but that's basically the result of my research back then. As it is, I prefer "Queerrat" to "monster rat", because of its emphasis on the uncanny.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Btw is queerrat even an accurate translation. I think I kept saying that because of the fansubs but come to think of it Bakenezumi translated to Monster Rat correct? Or can bake also translate to queer?

It's not really "accurate" per se... I won't go into it because, as I mentioned when we talked about "Cantus", this will be most likely mentioned in the anime.

"Queerrat" is not bad as far as translations go (it's definitely much better than "Cantus"), and it does have its own implications, as Dawnstorm said, but given the above, well... (Mind, I'm not saying that "monster rat" gets the same point across as the original, but I personally think that, or something along those lines, would work better in the context of the story, given the difference between "queer" and "monstrous".)

I guess this kind of anime tempts translators to go creative and use fancy translations and localizations, but when there's so much emphasis on playing with kanji and hidden meanings and such, I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to get very creative without doing the research, at least in case of key words. Straightforward translations may be "boring" but sometimes they're safer, I think. (And for what it's worth, most of the Japanese names for the creatures in Shinsekai yori are not particularly creative in a "sounds interesting and fancy" way. Fuuseninu = "balloon dog", sumifuki = "ink-spewer", etc. Pretty literal, and they have no cool kanji or unusual kanji combos. I think minoshiro is the only one whose name is not straightforward, but then minoshiro are supposed to be special creatures. Obviously this doesn't mean people shouldn't try to give them natural-sounding names in English, but I think that in some cases the simplicity is kind of the point.)

(And yet in manga like Bleach where translators could go wild with no later repercussions in the story, people want to keep everything in Japanese... )

Mostly unrelated to the above, but--

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

"Monster" comes from the latin root of "monere", which meens "to warn"; while "bakemono" comes from "bakeru", "to transform", or "to appear in disguise" (according to some online dictionaries; people who speak Japanese better than I do correct me).

That's a pretty simplified etymology there for "monster"... As far as I'm aware, the English word comes from Middle French "monstre" where it meant the same thing, and French got it from the Latin "monstrum" that means "monster/monstrosity" and "omen" - the idea being that malformed, unnatural-looking creatures are a sign of something very bad. Hence its origin being "warning". But it means something different from the norm in a bad way, unnaturally deformed.

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Mostly unrelated to the above, but--

That's a pretty simplified etymology there for "monster"... As far as I'm aware, the English word comes from Middle French "monstre" where it meant the same thing, and French got it from the Latin "monstrum" that means "monster/monstrosity" and "omen" - the idea being that malformed, unnatural-looking creatures are a sign of something very bad. Hence its origin being "warning". But it means something different from the norm in a bad way, unnaturally deformed.

Hehe, yeah, I simplified. A lot. I also simplified at the Japanese end. But in English, a "monster" should, if not frightening, at least be imposing. They're more creepy (to the good folks of the show).

[j4c06]

One question about the fiend issue. Death-by-shame is said to happen when a person intentionally attacks something that looks like a human being. Earlier in the series Rijin nearly died because queerrats reminded him of humans, even though he knew who they really were. Rats then used that as a tactics. The boy then attacked Saki because he knew of that tactics and didn't acknowledge her as a human, and didn't die. On the other hand, Kaburagi's eyes are covered all the time so technically he doesn't see any humans. It is a bit confusing, to be honest.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

Hehe, yeah, I simplified. A lot. I also simplified at the Japanese end. But in English, a "monster" should, if not frightening, at least be imposing. They're more creepy (to the good folks of the show).

Hm, really? (Honest question, I be ESL person.) From my POV a monster is, in this context, something... monstrous. As in, abnormal in a frightful way, unsettingly grotesque, disgustingly ugly, insert further synonyms. (But I guess it also depends on where you see/use the word most often.) Anyway, bakenezumi are supposed to be creepy but not in a supernatural but rather a disgusting way? Like, they have this really ugly appearance, looking like some sort of a really unfortunate cross between a giant naked mole rat and a deformed pig that walks on two legs but is more comfortable on four, they're not small enough to be seen as harmless thus kind of cute, but not big enough to be imposing either, etc... When little Saki sees one for the first time (the ones she rescued) she's utterly taken aback and thinks it has the most repulsive face she's ever seen. (Kiroumaru is sort of an exception, I guess? XD he has the good luck to look like a more familiar and noble animal. But he's still plenty scary. The problem is, I really just want to scratch his ears.)

Anyway, I'm not lobbying for "monster" or anything. I'm just saying that "queer" isn't really the best word to use here.

Originally Posted by j4c06

One question about the fiend issue. Death-by-shame is said to happen when a person intentionally attacks something that looks like a human being. Earlier in the series Rijin nearly died because queerrats reminded him of humans, even though he knew who they really were. Rats then used that as a tactics. The boy then attacked Saki because he knew of that tactics and didn't acknowledge her as a human, and didn't die. On the other hand, Kaburagi's eyes are covered all the time so technically he doesn't see any humans. It is a bit confusing, to be honest.

Rijin was already in a bad shape because his mechanism was triggered by the fake minoshiro's holo image of the mother and baby. The bakenezumi just made it worse. (The boy in this episode didn't know about this mechanism, which is why he was confused about what had happened.) Kaburagi Shisei, though... don't worry, he does see just fine even with that thing on. I don't know if this will be mentioned in the next episode, but he's... special.

[roon]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Kaburagi Shisei, though... don't worry, he does see just fine even with that thing on. I don't know if this will be mentioned in the next episode, but he's... special.

I kinda thought the mask acted a bit like how Cyclops's visor (from X-Men) works -- and if it doesn't keep his power in check, then he can obviously see without it since he was able to walk around the classroom (and allegedly look up Maria's skirt) way back when.

[j4c06]

The boy in this episode didn't know about this mechanism, which is why he was confused about what had happened.

But knowing is not necessary for the DNA mechanism to work, right? He intentionally attacked her and all, just thought she was a rat.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by j4c06

But knowing is not necessary for the DNA mechanism to work, right? He intentionally attacked her and all, just thought she was a rat.

Sure, but the boy didn't see her either so he had no idea. He ceased when Saki shouted to him to stop.

[Repelsteeltju]

You know with the fiend being as young it is. And with a society that's basically conditioned to consider anyone under eighteen inhuman, or if not inhuman, morally acceptable to kill if it benefits the community. The conditioning might not act as strongly as it does usually. I mean, ordering a large feline to murder an innocent child isn't all that different in terms of intent from, lets say: psychokinetically propelling an arrow into a misguided one. Is it?

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Hm, really? (Honest question, I be ESL person.) From my POV a monster is, in this context, something... monstrous. As in, abnormal in a frightful way, unsettingly grotesque, disgustingly ugly, insert further synonyms. (But I guess it also depends on where you see/use the word most often.)

I'm an ESL, too (German being my native tongue), so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt.

However, what I intend to say is a bit more complex than what I've actually said. What you say makes sense, but "monster" has a certain element of danger that's... intrusive. For example, considering the current developments, what would you make of a sentence like this?

But they're just monster rats. How can they possibly hurt us?

As a translator, I have the problem, that the "monster" part has the potential to make this unintentionally funny in a way the "bake-" part does not. The people in the actual conversation may not pick up on it, but the more people talk about it, the more likely someone will pick up on it, and then it turns into a serial joke. It's most noticable when the semantic fields of the words clash (monster vs. harmless), but it's more subtly present in other situations, too.

If I were stuck with the term "monster rat", as a writer I wouldn't, for example, have my characters say:

I had the monster rats fix the bridge. Okay with you?

I'd have the speaker shorten it to:

I had the rats fix the bridge. Okay with you?

The "official" name might be "monster rat", but there are situations where the "monster" just feels out of place.

I feel that "queerrat" doesn't have the same problems. It also flows better. Personally, I think it's a translation that works better in most contexts and is less likely to cause translational hiccups. It also flows better (in that the "r" is pretty fluid, and your done saying it quite fast.)

"Queerrat", though, lacks a sense of respect that I get from "bakenezumi" that is still present in "monster rat". The added patronising effect, however, enhances the way the humans in this world see the rats, while not ruling out that they're scary. Still, I'd like something a bit more neutral.

[kuromitsu]

>Dawnstorm
Again, I'm not saying that the word "monster" should be used - I said, that, or something along those lines. Or something else, really, a word or compound that conveys a general effect of "eugh, what lowly, horrible creatures these are" - at least that's how I would approach the issue, but if someone managed to find an expression that conveys the original implications of "bakenezumi" and its etymology that would be even better.

In any case, personally I wouldn't have a problem with "queerrat", were "bakenezumi" not a key word in a context where I think "queer" doesn't really work. And that's where I leave this off - we can pick it up again when the anime gets to that point.

Generally, though, my opinion, that of course nobody has to agree with, is that when you have a show like this where language can potentially get tricky, it's better to play it safe than go wild with creativity. (Especially in subs. Dubs or text... those are different beasts.) Of course it's very important that the words flow naturally, one should aim at smooth and fluid expressions. But it's also important to keep themes and points as intact as possible, and if the language is part of that... Basically, I think in case of something like Shinsekai yori, if you don't know the full context it's better to keep it safe and neutral, to be flexible and open to whatever the show might throw at you.

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

In any case, personally I wouldn't have a problem with "queerrat", were "bakenezumi" not a key word in a context where I think "queer" doesn't really work. And that's where I leave this off - we can pick it up again when the anime gets to that point.

Can't wait for the anime to get to that point. (... Not because of that discussion; in the end, I don't care all that much. Personally, I'd have been tempted to just leave it as "bakenezumi", anyway, and give a translator's note, once. It's how I think of them, anyway.)

[Kirarakim]

Thanks for the very thorough explanation and I think I might stick to bakenezumi for now on too are just the rats

I also didnt realize cantus was the wrong word either.