2009-07-21, 18:09 | Link #2541 |
めんど草
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toRaiga
(2)is outotu. 凸totuレンズconvex lens 凹ouレンズconcave lens tosonotme_9FedriqSama 生きる→生きないikinai 行く →行かないikanai include "nai"like ikinai and ikanai, "ki"and "ka" before "n" are "?a",so do Onnbinn. 生きるis "ki",so don't onnbinn.生きてis right. 行くis "ka",so do onnbinn. いいて not easy to say いいて→いって without permission 許可なしで、断らないで but when the sentence say,often without permission,so don't include the sentence. addition for onnbinn, there is ウ音便 in 大阪弁 ~ワナイ(買わない) 買いて→買うて(koute for歴史的仮名遣い) in Tokyo not easy to say 買いて→買って normal japanese is 買って |
2009-07-22, 01:39 | Link #2542 | |
ここに居ってんねん
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Osaka
Age: 39
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Just to clarify a couple of things:
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On a different note, let me attempt to clarify mendokusa's explanation: Onbin (音便, "euphony") is a way of illustrating the sound changes that caused verbs whose root ends in a consonant to go from having four stems (yodan) to five (godan). It's useful to learners of Japanese in order to explain the irregularities in an otherwise highly regular verb paradigm. As mendokusa mentioned, there are four types in Standard Japanese (and five in Kansai-ben), which dictate transformations to the adverbial stem (ren'youkei) when followed by the verb suffix -て and its derivatives (in the modern language, just -たり, -たら and -た).
And I think I've managed once again to make a topic more confusing, not less. I need to figure out a way to explain stuff without so much jargon... Last edited by RandomGuy; 2009-07-22 at 09:26. |
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2009-07-22, 09:15 | Link #2544 | |
ここに居ってんねん
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Osaka
Age: 39
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You have a point about the U-shift in the adverbial form of adjectives, as well; it still survives in phrases with (お)____ございます, such as おはよう (from 早い) and ありがとう (ありがたい). Of course, this particular shift is still seen in Kansai-ben, as well (though it's hard for me to tell exactly how prevalent it still is; people frequently seem to omit the う entirely). |
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2009-07-22, 10:26 | Link #2545 | |
tl;dr
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 32
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Quote:
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2009-07-22, 13:34 | Link #2546 |
Clamotgun
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: UK
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Arigatou mendokusa san and Random guy for you help on "onnbinn"...changes....since its a part of regular speech for verb changing....knowing about it was a major help....
@ Random guy....yea m8 u need to cut down some jargons a little ...but u used romanji in brackets before that made it understandable a little... @ both I tried doing some onnbinn on similar sounding verbs but totally failed....do similar sounding verbs go same onnbinn conversions? kiku (聞く) --- to listen kuru (来る) --- to come kuru (繰る) --- to reel Kiru (着る) --- to wear Kiru (切る) --- to cut Kau (買う) --- to buy Sorry if I am causing problems for you guys but since verb conjugations is an important part of speech I want to know more from people rather than just hogging all up in my head from internet or books... I remember better when I ask doubts and someone clarifies it. 聞く -> as "random guy" said it'll be ききて->きいて and with -eru (聞こえる) kikoeru can it go as きこえて-> きこって? 来る -> as "mendokusa" said きいて->きって can it also get converted to きて...I read it on some website...wanted to make sure 繰る -> ? will this go same as きいて->きって 着る -> ? will this go as きいて->きって can it go as きせて-> きせって? (but this is for 着せる I guess) 切る -> ? will this go as きいて->きって can it go as かるって? 買う -> かいて→ かって as "mendokusa" said |
2009-07-22, 15:34 | Link #2547 |
Senior Member
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sonotme_9FedriqSama
Why do you need to complicate things so badly? I personally had a headache after looking at your examples. 聞こえる(きこえる) is an 'ichidan' verb (下shimo一段活用). The above mentioned onnbinn applies only to godan verbs. 来る(くる) is an irregular verb to begin with, so it becomes 'kite' in this case. 繰る(くる) is on the other hand, a 'godan' verb (五段活用), so the general rule applies. I.e. it's 繰って - くって. 着る(きる)- is another ichidan verb (上kami一段活用), same rules apply as with 'kikoeru' (see above) 切る(きる)- is a godan verb (see above again).
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Last edited by nikorai; 2009-07-22 at 15:44. |
2009-07-22, 17:35 | Link #2548 |
めんど草
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聞く→聞かない→聞いて (カ行5段活用)
来kuる→来koない→来kiて (カ行変格活用) 繰る→繰らない→繰って (ラ行5段活用) 着る→着kiない→着て (カ行上一段活用) 切る→切らない→切って (ラ行5段活用) 買う→買わない→買って(買うて) (ワ行5段活用) 聞くand 聞こえる are not same. 聞こえる→聞こえない→聞こえて (ヤ行下一段活用) (old japanere's "聞こゆ”) 聞いてください(聞く listen) please listen it. 聞こえますか?(聞こえるhear) Can you hear me? 着せる→着せない→着せて (サ行下一段活用) 服を着ます。(着る) 子供に服を着せます。(着せる) Last edited by mendokusa; 2009-07-22 at 18:07. |
2009-07-23, 05:34 | Link #2550 |
Clamotgun
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: UK
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@nikorai "Why do you need to complicate things so badly? I personally had a headache after looking at your examples."
lol...sorry but if I don't clear up my doubts about confusing stuff...I won't even able to understand easy stuff....But I hope that helped clear some of your doubts as well Arigatou mendokusa san....that was a helpful explaination....I hope I didn't caused you much trouble... |
2009-07-23, 11:37 | Link #2551 |
めんど草
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should learn how to change verb before 音便.
五段活用 上一段活用 下一段活用 カ行変格活用 来る サ行変格活用 -する、する ごめんなさい、カ行とサ行が逆だったから直した。 old japanese writing 四段活用 上一段活用 上二段活用 下一段活用 下二段活用 ナ行変格活用 ラ行変格活用 サ行変格活用 カ行変格活用 hun,don't need to learn old japanese writing. so,less than old. Last edited by mendokusa; 2009-07-23 at 17:43. |
2009-07-23, 18:13 | Link #2554 |
めんど草
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未然形(まだしていない)
~ない、~よう(~う) 連用形(用言<動詞、形容詞、形容動詞>に繋がる) ~ます、~て、~た 終止形(辞書に載っている形) ~。 連体形(体言<名詞、代名詞>に繋がる) ~こと 仮定形(仮定する) ~ば 命令形(命令する) ~! 未然、連用、終始、連体、仮定、命令 貸す(sa行五段活用) さandそ、し、す、す、せ、せ 見miる(上一段活用) み、み、みる、みる、みれ、みれ 聞こえる(下一段活用) え、え、える、える、えれ、えれ 上一段活用 and 下一段活用 are same. ●、●、●る、●る、●れ、●れ ●is "?i",so "上一段" ●is "?e",so "下一段" when ●a行五段活用, ●a and ●o,●i,●u,●u,●e,●e 未然形(~ない)is difference by kind of 活用. 貸saない miない 聞こeない so,before ない,a is 五段、i is 上一段、e is 下一段. only するand 来るare special verb for change. する し、し、する、する、すれ、しろ 来る こ、き、くる、くる、くれ、こい Last edited by mendokusa; 2009-07-23 at 18:28. |
2009-07-24, 11:33 | Link #2555 | |
Clamotgun
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: UK
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Quote:
Mendokusa san...I'll note down your explaination about imperfective form, conjugative form etc...and go through it later...I'm still working on verbs....so it may take time....I don't want to rush...I'll learn slowly Last edited by sonotme_9FedriqSama; 2009-07-24 at 11:43. |
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2009-07-25, 03:19 | Link #2559 |
Translator Level 4/10
Join Date: Feb 2008
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皆さん、現在、私は東京で日本語を勉強しています。今年の12月に、日本語能力試験を受けるつもりです。そ のために、日本語学校に通っています。後は自分で一生懸命勉強しています。
皆さん、夏休みに何をしたいですか? Spoiler for English Version of Above:
To the Question I asked about summer break, I was just thinking, if we used Japanese to have a form of dialogue as well, it might be useful for learning. That way it's not just grammer, but also putting it into practice. I'm currently just starting the Intermediate Level at my school. 答えは日本語でお願いします Please respond in Japanese. よろしくお願いします
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