Madoka Magica - Character Discussion - Kyubei

[RegalStar]

Kyubei is still Kyubei. His relationship with humans is better after the reset only because this time around, there's no benefit to be antagonistic, so he isn't.

[kaigan]

what i could say is QB demonstrated and effectively pressured homu with psychological warfare to achieve his goal. he deduced homu's intention and made an educated guess about the peculiar case of madoka. he dropped the bomb and hit the mark. homu is visibly surprised and taken aback. QB dropped something she did not know or did not expect. it's her own doing that a madoka's growing potential. QB hit homu at her weakest.

because of this homu had second thoughts of repeating and about to lose hope in the end. so crafty of this little devil! if QB was a little less clever, the ending could have been different.

[Squarecrow]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

You do know that the two of you could've saved yourselves a lot of troublesome criticism had you all stated this from the very beginning.

They did. Or at least Kaijo did.

[Triple_R]

When all is said and done, Kyubey is a picture perfect pragmatist.

He'll do whatever works best for him and his goals, simple as that.

His goals are at least somewhat understandable, and certainly not inherently evil.


Kyubey's methods, pre-Madoka World, were quite nasty, but now it seems he can achieve his goals by less nefarious means. As such, he's not really an evil character at the point where the anime ends.


I have to say that I kind of like how Gen rehabilitated Kyubey without changing the core essence of his character. Gen simply changed the rules of the game, making it so that Kyubey is now best served by sincerely working with the good guys.

[Key Board]

Brief history review

1)group A says that QB has evil intentions and explains their theory
2)show supports group A claims
3) group A becomes excited.. probably overexcited .. really overexcited
4)group B finds this obnoxious.. forms QB defense force and argues with group A over the semantics of the world evil
5)Discussions are no longer about the show but rather about who is right and wrong on the internet. QB becomes a strawman
6)People start to believe their own propaganda about QB. They develop their own expectations.
7)QB does not react and behave the way they want or expect.. disgruntled people cries of bad writing
8)but someone is still wrong on the internet so arguments and heavy play of semantics continue

QB arguments have also been about one thing: internet drama

It's too bad really

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

I know I previously demanded that QB's race be exterminated for their crimes....

But I see why they survived.

Madoka's wish, of stopping Witches from being created forwards and backwards in time, means that QB never actually harvested a single Magical Girl for energy. QB's people have been spared harsh punishment because Madoka had actually undone their evil acts entirely via time travel.

I guess the logic is that you can't punish someone for something they didn't actually do. Yes, they would have done it again if the option is there, but the fact is their major evil act is simply erase from time as if it was never done.

Like it or not, QB is free to do what he likes until he actually hurts anyone. With the magic system now consist of girls fighting monsters, I don't have a case against QB's race anymore.

[Kaijo]

It's interesting that we really do end up with a "tame" Kyube, something that a few people would have had a problem with... and yet still give the series high marks, heh.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I know I previously demanded that QB's race be exterminated for their crimes....

I don't want to pick on you in particular, but I found it pretty disturbing how some posters here were willing to support outright genocide in order to deal with the Incubators.

I mean, I agreed that Kyubey circa Original World needed to be stopped, but once the Incubators (of the Original World) are forced to leave Earth, that should be satisfactory, imo.

Also, capital punishment is not the only form of punishment. Why not simply imprison Kyubey if a means of doing so is found? I'm sure we could learn invaluable scientific knowledge from him in return for making his stay in captivity a slightly more pleasant one.


Anyway, these are now somewhat moot points, but I felt compelled to bring them up given what you wrote.

[frubam]

Screw that. Kyubei is evil. "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.", and trying to intentionally regulate power on a universal scale is as absolute as you can get. True evil is one where he who commits evil believes he is righteous. And these Incubators are filling the bill fairly easy.

And to those who say Kyubei's actions are logical and possess no ill intent, I'd like to say that deciphering evil takes emotion. Observe the action and decide(w/emotions) whether it is evil. And I say using young girls to fulfill energy quotas for the universe for your own ambitions is pretty damn evil. And in order to completely erase that evil, every trace of its being needs to be exterminated, else, there is always a chance that the evil will arise, sometimes in a completely unexpected way.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by frubam

Screw that. Kyubei is evil. "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.", and trying to intentionally regulate power on a universal scale is as absolute as you can get.

By this rationale, Madoka is now evil.

True evil is one where he who commits evil believes he is righteous.

There's nothing more evil than a person who is knowingly and willingly committing evil deeds, with evil intentions.

A person who believes what he is doing is righteous is at least motivated by good intentions.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by frubam

Screw that. Kyubei is evil. "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.", and trying to intentionally regulate power on a universal scale is as absolute as you can get. True evil is one where he who commits evil believes he is righteous. And these Incubators are filling the bill fairly easy.

And to those who say Kyubei's actions are logical and possess no ill intent, I'd like to say that deciphering evil takes emotion. Observe the action and decide(w/emotions) whether it is evil. And I say using young girls to fulfill energy quotas for the universe for your own ambitions is pretty damn evil. And in order to completely erase that evil, every trace of its being needs to be exterminated, else, there is always a chance that the evil will arise, sometimes in a completely unexpected way.

There's a distinction to be made between his actions being evil (which they undeniably were) and he himself being evil. The fact that he lacks emotion is what forms a line between these two; since he doesn't have emotion, he doesn't perceive his actions as being evil nor does he have malicious intent behind them. That said, while we can call his actions evil and call him an antagonist for carrying them out, we cannot necessarily call him evil for it. It's like calling a butcher evil for seeing nothing wrong with killing cattle for food.

Edit: Damn, ninja'd by Triple R. And nice point on the rationale of Madoka being evil.

[frubam]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

By this rationale, Madoka is now evil.

I didn't know Madoka was trying to regulate the great powers of the universe . She is not evil because her actions are not evil. You should try to look deeper than the surface of the quote I just mentioned.

There's nothing more evil than a person who is knowingly and willingly committing evil deeds, with evil intentions.

A person who believes what he is doing is righteous is at least motivated by good intentions.

I disagree. The worst thing is to have sinned and not understand that it is a sin. Those that create evil under the name of righteousness can cause others to believe his actions are good, when they are actually evil, thus, spreading his evil under a far more sinister guise. This is why Kyubei is so abhorred and hated throughout the story.

Originally Posted by Akashin

There's a distinction to be made between his actions being evil (which they undeniably were) and he himself being evil. The fact that he lacks emotion is what forms a line between these two; since he doesn't have emotion, he doesn't perceive his actions as being evil nor does he have malicious intent behind them. That said, while we can call his actions evil and call him an antagonist for carrying them out, we cannot necessarily call him evil for it. It's like calling a butcher evil for seeing nothing wrong with killing cattle for food.

Edit: Damn, ninja'd by Triple R. And nice point on the rationale of Madoka being evil.

A lack of emotion on his part doesn't excuse that he is evil. All of his actions are for his and his Incubator buddies own interests, at the expense of these girls' lives. He believes he is doing is what is best for everyone and the universe, with no consideration to the people he uses. He claims his actions are good, when they are perceived by all as evil. This makes Kyubei the EPITOME of evil.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by frubam

A lack of emotion on his part doesn't excuse that he is evil. All of his actions are for his and his Incubator buddies own interests, at the expense of these girls' lives. He believes he is doing is what is best for everyone and the universe, with no consideration to the people he uses. He claims his actions are good, when they are perceived by all as evil. This makes Kyubei the EPITOME of evil.

I think somebody is missing the point here. That he is evil from a human perspective is perfectly logical and undeniable; the entire point is that his actions can't and shouldn't be judged from a human perspective. Yes his actions are for his own self-interest (although his actions indirectly benefit others, though he doesn't seem to care about that), but that is not evil necessarily; he is trying to do a good thing (though without proof that his actions are immediately necessary I have trouble understanding why entropy is such a present issue to him) for the universe.

Yes, the fact that he uses people is evil; note, however, that it is the action itself that is evil. He has good intentions behind them and simply fails to understand why it is wrong; thus, he is only evil from a strictly human perspective. This is why he is painted as an antagonist by the story, which depicts him from a human perspective. But once you look at the situation away from that, it becomes increasingly less black and white.

[Antiscian]

Originally Posted by frubam

I disagree. The worst thing is to have sinned and not understand that it is a sin. Those that create evil under the name of righteousness can cause others to believe his actions are good, when they are actually evil, thus, spreading his evil under a far more sinister guise.

Now this is something interesting.
The problem with this line of reasoning is of course,
'why are you so absolutely convinced that you're in the right? Doesn't that make you just like Kyubey?'
You claim 'they are actually evil', but that's just an opinion: the fact that there are people who disagree with this shows that it's not something objective.
If you think that causing evil with good intentions is the worst sort of evil, then that makes pretty much everyone potentially the worst type of evil unless someone can prove beyond a doubt that their system of morality is absolutely right.

I guess it's an issue of consequentialism vs virtue ethics, which I'm not going to go into. 'Good' and 'evil' are all wooly concepts anyway.

On that note, Incubators are definitely utilitarian, which is a valid ethical system in modern society.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I don't want to pick on you in particular, but I found it pretty disturbing how some posters here were willing to support outright genocide in order to deal with the Incubators.

I mean, I agreed that Kyubey circa Original World needed to be stopped, but once the Incubators (of the Original World) are forced to leave Earth, that should be satisfactory, imo.

Also, capital punishment is not the only form of punishment. Why not simply imprison Kyubey if a means of doing so is found? I'm sure we could learn invaluable scientific knowledge from him in return for making his stay in captivity a slightly more pleasant one.


Anyway, these are now somewhat moot points, but I felt compelled to bring them up given what you wrote.

I support genocide as a defence only because QB's race are genocidal. They have confirmed that they are willing to cause the extinction of the human race to get what they want, so you have no right to judge me when you support QB.

Let me repeat; QB does not care if he killed every human on Earth. If you say that isn't evil, then nothing I do would be evil either. Evil either exists or it doesn't. Sociopath who have no emotions don't get an exemption.

I think somebody is missing the point here. That he is evil from a human perspective is perfectly logical and undeniable; the entire point is that his actions can't and shouldn't be judged from a human perspective. Yes his actions are for his own self-interest (although his actions indirectly benefit others, though he doesn't seem to care about that), but that is not evil necessarily; he is trying to do a good thing (though without proof that his actions are immediately necessary I have trouble understanding why entropy is such a present issue to him) for the universe.

Yes, the fact that he uses people is evil; note, however, that it is the action itself that is evil. He has good intentions behind them and simply fails to understand why it is wrong; thus, he is only evil from a strictly human perspective. This is why he is painted as an antagonist by the story, which depicts him from a human perspective. But once you look at the situation away from that, it becomes increasingly less black and white.

QB can do whatever he wants in his home planet. But when he is on Earth, he needs to play by our rules. I don't care if QB kills his own mother and rapes his own sister back home if that's their local custom, but if he wants to deal with humans then human morality matters.

"It's okay because he isn't human" is not a defence when he is interacting with humans.

[Antiscian]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Let me repeat; QB does not care if he killed every human on Earth. If you say that isn't evil, then nothing I would would be evil either. Evil either exists or it doesn't. Sociopath who have no emotions don't get an exemption.

I agree with you, for the most part.
So either they're both horribly evil or they're both acceptable.

By wanting to kill off the incubators, you're either using their horrible evil as an excuse to inflict the same horrible evil on them so they can't do it to you first, or you're doing something perfectly okay to their race because they're doing something perfectly okay to humans.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Antiscian

I agree with you, for the most part.
So either they're both horribly evil or they're both acceptable.

By wanting to kill off the incubators, you're either using their horrible evil as an excuse to inflict the same horrible evil on them so they can't do it to you first, or you're doing something perfectly okay to their race because they're doing something perfectly okay to humans.

Nope. I am saying if the human race was to be exterminated, QB needs to die with us as punishment.

Further, it is a case of defending the galaxy as a whole. If they are willing to murder humanity, they are willing to murder other alien lifeforms too. From that angle, it is about keeping the peace in the galaxy by removing a clear and present danger.

And finally, by QB's own rules it is perfectly acceptable for us to kill them, as murder isn't a crime on his planet. It's just happened that Madoka is too nice to do it.

What is your reasoning to suggest we should "play nice" with QB's race? Because if you suggest they were not our enemy, you need to watch the show again. Madoka changed the past so I can't pursue this matter any further, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

QB can do whatever he wants in his home planet. But when he is on Earth, he needs to play by our rules. I don't care if QB kills his own mother and rapes his own sister back home if that's their local custom, but if he wants to deal with humans then human morality matters.

"It's okay because he isn't human" is not a defence when he is interacting with humans.

=/

Where did I say that it's okay since he isn't human? I don't believe I said he was good, nor that his actions are in any way "okay".

My point is that he's only evil so long as you hold him up to human morality. For the sake of this story, to the main characters, he is evil. I never disputed that, and I believe I actually said exactly that. My point is that once you step back and consider the universe as a whole, it isn't fair to say he is undeniably evil, since by his own moral standard he is not. Thus you cannot call him pure evil, since he is only evil so long as you look at him from a single perspective.

He's a confusing character to judge properly, and I've probably contradicted myself somewhere here. Whatever.

[Antiscian]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Further, it is a case of defending the galaxy as a whole. If they are willing to murder humanity, they are willing to murder other alien lifeforms too. From that angle, it is about keeping the peace in the galaxy by removing a clear and present danger.

I agree.
(Well, humanity isn't a 'clear and present danger' but it is indeed about sacrificing for the good of the whole).

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

And finally, by QB's own rules it is perfectly acceptable for us to kill them, as murder isn't a crime on his planet. It's just happened that Madoka is too nice to do it.

I pretty much agree with this. From their perspective, they wouldn't see anything morally wrong with us killing all of them.

Even so...

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I am saying if the human race was to be exterminated, QB needs to die with us as punishment.

Where does this come from?
The QB race is not 'a clear and present danger'. The universe will gain no benefit from wiping them out.
Why do they need to be punished? What benefit will anyone gain from that besides a tiny blue planet of humans getting some sort of emotional satisfaction?

[Kaijo]

When hanging around the space nerds, one quickly realizes that aliens will really be alien. That doesn't go for just the physical, but their thought processes and morality as well. They'll be so different, that we'll really have to struggle to understand them. If you think it is bad now, with different groups of humans fighting with other groups of humans and not understanding them, well, you haven't seen anything.

So with an alien lifeform, our morality is as equally pointless as theirs. The only question that remains, then, is: "Do we do what is best for us, fighting for it if need be, or submit to what the aliens say is best?"

in that light, ascribing any morality to Kyube is a fool's errand. Either go along with him because you agree entropy is an issue and you're willing to sacrifice a few lives to deal with that and buy our incredible civilization... or declare that you'd rather remain naked in a cave, rather than sacrifice anyone, and thus fight against Kyube.

I suppose the third option would be to try and find a way for the two races to coexist which would require compromise, which is what Madoka ultimately could be seen as doing. Girls still fight and die, although they don't turn into witches anymore. And the Kyube's still get energy, although not as much anymore.

Decide for yourself which approach you favor and why. And decide what principles you feel are worth sacrificing in the name of compromise.