Claymore Chapter 123

[Nixl]

I simply do not accept your argument that there is still discussion on a cut and dry matter. Tell me, how much have we had to talk about Jean's wedge? Seriously, aside from joking about Jean's Wedge, how much true discussion have we had on it? Compare it to our discussions over Raphaela's memories or TvP. It is small and forgettable.

All the other times that we have wondered about a topic such as TvP, Irene, or Raphaela's memories have led to discussion even if some of those discussions turned into arguments. I would not give up the fun of discussing Priscilla and her idiosyncrasies for the sake of convenience.

What fun is there if everything is explained away for convenience?

Why treat the audience like idiots?

Honestly, I think we will have to settle that we have two very different opinions. Our thought processes are too different on this matter. I like mystery in stories and I like discussing those mysteries with others. Without it, all that is left is to passively sit and watch.

edit: had to reorganize thoughts plus add stuff.

[Ulquihorror]

omg, dr.deneve gives me orgasms with her deep thoughts

[Claymore!]

Originally Posted by Nixl

I simply do not accept your argument that there is still discussion on a cut and dry matter. Tell me, how much have we had to talk about Jean's wedge? Compare it to our discussions over Raphaela's memories or TvP.

People feel more strongly towards the TvP subject so more peoplr discuss it.
I have no opinion on Raphaela's memories because i don't recall a discussion on that.

All the other times that we have wondered about a topic such as TvP, Irene, or Raphaela's memories have led to discussion even if some of those discussions turned into arguments. I would not give up the fun of discussing Priscilla and her idiosyncrasies for the sake of convenience.

I guess i would rather have a clear understanding of an event than discuss it with 20 other people who all have a different opinion that they won't change.

What fun is there if everything is explained away for convenience?

The fun? the fun is the stroy itself. So yes people should understand the story.

Why treat the audience like idiots?

Idiots? Idiots are people who hate others for no good reason. Its like Racism.

Honestly, I think we will have to settle that we have two very different opinions. Our thought processes are too different on this matter. I like mystery in stories and I like discussing those mysteries with others. Without it, all that is left is to passively sit and watch.

Well you have a very different opinion. But i agree to disagree. Mystery is fine in stories as long people can understand what is going on. Too much mystery and the story would be hard to follow.

Originally Posted by Ulquihorror

omg, dr.deneve gives me orgasms with her deep thoughts

What?

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by Claymore!

Why is that Bull shit? Its true. There really isn't anything wrong with that either. And I like Deneve because of her cool and calm personality. She is the opposite of Helen and i love it when they are together. I have also liked Deneve every since Pieta. Being Yagi's "mouth-piece" is just something about her that i don't hate.

All I can say, is that you are entitled to your own opinion, because I just don't agree at all - I don't see Deneve as the opposite of Helen; if anything, they are two sides of the same idiot and Deneve isn't secretly Helen, or anyone else's for that matter, conscious/superego that keeps everybody in check every once and awhile.

I just don't agree with that because I just never saw Deneve like that; as I said, if anything, she's just as wild as Helen is - the only difference is, she's introverted about it and Helen is extroverted.

I know it doesn't seem like much of a reply, but as I've been saying before, I think this whole thing is very very perceptive and personal -- very, "agree to disagree" - their is potential evidence going both ways.

I'm not trying to bash Deneve (well, maybe I am a little )....I don't agree one bit though that she's suddenly/secretly been elevated to this great position of importance or somehow has always been there; she's not just a background character or anything, but this is just another extreme in my opinion; it's one I don't believe in.

Originally Posted by Claymore!

Yes i do think it was needed. People would have been wondering how the hell she was unable to awaken. It was better to have a widely accepted idea rather than a bunch of people arguing about what happened. I would rather have an idea that was confirmed by the autor than one that was just made up by some fan.

This was a reply to Nixl, but I had to reply to it myself -- once again, we are completely different.

I don't agree with this whatsoever - yes, people have been wondering how Claire awoke....you think we've been sitting on our butts about it though? Everybody and their grandma has been theorizing Claire's situation; many of them have been very good...

So what on earth makes Deneve's words so important? Again, I never got the memo that everything she says is God and must be accepted or you are denying the truth....to me, what came from her, was just another theory and we may get another answer in time -- it's not like we've been told something that ended up being false, at one time or another.

I don't believe or like the idea that she's just a mouthpiece for Yagi - that she's always been this way, suddenly became like this, or even have this role, and if she does, I won't even know what to say to that, other then that Claymore's ambiguity has effectively been gutted...

What's the point of theorizing, with debating, with thinking, if we can just count on Dr.D to just explain everything and tell us everything we need to know? Last I checked, the point of Claymore, Claymore as a whole, was all about gray ambiguity and figuring stuff out on your own....you can't tell me that Deneve's behavior is completely contradictory to that.

Sooner or later, their will be answers to our all theorizing and questioning - that's, for good and for bad, undeniable...however, in this manner is completely distasteful and shallow....because, like Nixl said, their isn't even any creativity being done of it - it's just Deneve flat-out explaining things to us...(http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=406)

I wrote alot more on this, on this post, as I'd rather not just rewrite, but their's alot more going on and I'm not sure I like this method of presentation.

Again I think it is necessary. It is a serious emotional event that only can occur with two strong people (Miria and Deneve). It did not lack emotion. You just must not understand the characters well enough.

Um, no, we just don't simply feel the way you do....that doesn't make us 'wrong'. Raki is an embodiment of this

It's all perceptive Claymore!....I can see why it's a powerful moment for some, I can see why, especially coupled with Dr.D, more ranting on Deneve's part...I said just now that it feels like a long-awaiting dressing-down to Miria on Deneve's part.

All I can say is the same thing as always -- "agree to disagree"

No not really. People will just post about how much they hate something that happened in the chapter whether or not it was explained in the chapter. Discussions will continue anyways and people will probably still discuss things that are explained by Deneve so the topics aren't destroyed by her.

Yes, but they are effectively gutted.....their are situations Claymore! where, eventually with time, we have no choice but to accept what happened or what was said, as truth -- Renee hasn't shown up in ages and it doesn't look like she will any time soon......the ambiguity of Riful's words, made many hope she was actually still alive....but it's been ages since then and we have no choice but to accept that she really did die. Maybe she didn't, but I am no longer holding my breath.

This however is even worse, because their IS no implication, their is no potential mystery -- again, it's just Deneve flat-out explaining the story as if the readers were brain-dead idiots, and we have no choice but to accept what she says.

Well, count me out -- I'm not "wrong" for my stance on it, because mine has just as much truth as the supporters; not to mention, undeniably, we've gotten told things more then once that ended up being false...Gooral I believe actually said that Yagi has been covering up things from the past, because new data has sometimes conflicted with the old data (which has some merit to it)...

The ambiguity of Claymore both helps and hurts us in more then one way; but it's what makes the story what it is - I don't see any reason to suddenly destroy that by electing the stoic warrior as the author's mouthpiece and/or the voice-of-reason. Regardless of whether her words have sense and truth to them, because they often do, it's taking it too far to accept and approve everything that she does and comes out of her mouth (because as I said, she needs a dressing-down of her own; notably, she's never gotten one; when is she ever going to be put in her place, or is she just gonna do that to everybody else?), especially with the logic that everything she says and does is the will of God/Yagi.

People feel more strongly towards the TvP subject so more peoplr discuss it.
I have no opinion on Raphaela's memories because i don't recall a discussion on that.

Plainly, you weren't around at the time, because their were - oh god, their were.

Originally Posted by Ulquihorror

omg, dr.deneve gives me orgasms with her deep thoughts

It's posts like these that make people think you are a male

Really? She makes me wanna throw up.

I guess i would rather have a clear understanding of an event than discuss it with 20 other people who all have a different opinion that they won't change.

The fun? the fun is the stroy itself. So yes people should understand the story.

Well you have a very different opinion. But i agree to disagree. Mystery is fine in stories as long people can understand what is going on. Too much mystery and the story would be hard to follow.

Idiots? Idiots are people who hate others for no good reason. Its like Racism.

First off, that bit on racism made me laugh

Claymore! I feel your outlook on the story is simply different then my own, and presumably Nixl's....It's not like the entire story is one giant mystery; not in the sense you're thinking....it's not like Claire's name is actually Shaniqua Johnson or the whole thing is actually a dream or something ridiculous and off-the-wall, you are taking it too far...

Everybody can understand largely all the aspects of the story; for many things, we all disagree on and have our theories on things but, in one way or another, we all agree on things, we have a very clear picture of the world and all it's mysteries even if the deep-things are still (in a way, fortunately) unanswered...and very often, when a mystery is answered, we are often right on the money -- As shocking as it was for many people, Cyclone was the one who predicted the merger between Rafaela and her sister.

Deneve's method of revealing things however has no substance, no growth, no anything - it's not that we were told the answer to something that felt very lacking (that's only half)...it's just that, at the same time, that's it - we are supposed to accept what she says as truth, and their is nothing we can do about it.

That kind of mentality spits on the people like us who love this story and spent an exorbant amount of time thinking and debating -- we love the story for his grayness, it's deliberate ambiguity and, sooner or later, answers will be revealed, which, in part we want to finally understand something we've been theorizing for so long, but on the other hand, it's finally come to an end and the riddle is solved - their is no mystery, no more debating, that excitement is over.

Because undeniably, and I've said it many times before -- that's what it's all about - what Claymore, is all about: the thinking, the debating, hanging on your chair every month to find out what the next chapter will slightly reveal to us next whilst leaving us on another frustrating cliffhanger......That's the bulk of the fun -- I simply can't imagine somebody who reads the story all in one shot and/or when it's all over and the story is complete......it certainly must feel like a very hollow experience since the party is already over.

But getting back on track, yes, the mysteries must be revealed sooner or later.....but why like this? Again, half the fun of a mystery is the mystery itself, not the answer -- if we got flat-out told the answer to something, well gee, I didn't really have to spend so much time thinking about it now did I? I don't want to pin this all on Deneve as, as I explained in my link, part of this has to do with Claymore's ambiguity as a whole which may feel like a lose-lose situation.....nevertheless, this just goes too far if this whole mouthpiece thing really is true....their is no substance, no reward, no nothing about this -- It's just a blunt character bluntly telling us what's going on in the story; can't Yagi throw me a bone or something? If I wanted to be flat-out explained what's going on in a plot, I'd be reading Dragon Ball Z or something.

[TheRussianMeatClob]

........................The Force is strong with this one.

Spoiler for What Ulquihorror:

Originally Posted by Ulquihorror

omg, dr.deneve gives me orgasms with her deep thoughts

Spoiler for What Shiek Said:

Originally Posted by Shiek927

First off, that bit on racism made me laugh

Claymore! I feel your outlook on the story is simply different then my own, and presumably Nixl's....It's not like the entire story is one giant mystery; not in the sense you're thinking....it's not like Claire's name is actually Shaniqua or the whole thing is actually a dream or something ridiculous and off-the-wall, you are taking it too far...

Everybody can understand largely all the aspects of the story; for many things, we all disagree on and have our theories on things but, in one way or another, we all agree on things, we have a very clear picture of the world and all it's mysteries even if the deep-things are still (in a way, fortunately) unanswered...and very often, when a mystery is answered, we are often right on the money -- As shocking as it was for many people, Cyclone was the one who predicted the merger between Rafaela and her sister.

Deneve's method of revealing things however has no substance, no growth, no anything - it's not that we were told the answer to something that felt very lacking (that's only half)...it's just that, at the same time, that's it - we are supposed to accept what she says as truth, and their is nothing we can do about it.

That kind of mentality spits on the people like us who love this story and spent an exorbant amount of time thinking and debating -- we love the story for his grayness, it's deliberate ambiguity and, sooner or later, answers will be revealed, which, in part we want to finally understand something we've been theorizing for so long, but on the other hand, it's finally come to an end and the riddle is solved - their is no mystery, no more debating, that excitement is over.

Because undeniably, and I've said it many times before -- that's what it's all about - what Claymore, is all about: the thinking, the debating, hanging on your chair every month to find out what the next chapter will slightly reveal to us next whilst leaving us on another frustrating cliffhanger......That's the bulk of the fun -- I simply can't imagine somebody who reads the story all in one shot and/or when it's all over and the story is complete......it certainly must feel like a very hollow experience since the party is already over.

But getting back on track, yes, the mysteries must be revealed sooner or later.....but why like this? Again, half the fun of a mystery is the mystery itself, not the answer -- if we got flat-out told the answer to something, well gee, I didn't really have to spend so much time thinking about it now did I? I don't want to pin this all on Deneve as, as I explained in my link, part of this has to do with Claymore's ambiguity as a whole which may feel like a lose-lose situation.....nevertheless, this just goes too far if this whole mouthpiece thing really is true....their is no substance, no reward, no nothing about this -- It's just a blunt character bluntly telling us what's going on in the story; can't Yagi throw me a bone or something? If I wanted to be flat-out explained what's going on in a plot, I'd be reading Dragon Ball Z or something.

My God Shiek I really wish I could give you Rep for this.

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by TheRussianMeatClob

........................The Force is strong with this one.



My God Shiek I really wish I could give you Rep for this.

Yeah, I amaze myself sometimes

(You're very kind )

[TheRussianMeatClob]

But Ladies and Gentlemen the question remains where does Miria's "X" scar go?

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by TheRussianMeatClob

But Ladies and Gentlemen the question remains where does Miria's "X" scar go?

Where did it go?

No, the question is, why didn't it go?

She got regenerated so the wound healed..... but then it comes back......

Um......

I can understand if was popular and people liked it, but Yagi still has to logically explain why it's still there; it plainly was superficial enough that it healed, because we see plainly that it was gone, and in her base form no less (so it's not like she's stuck with it unless she powers up...wait, that doesn't make sense anyway)....

It's not a scar like the scars from the operation....it's a wound that can, and did, heal...it coming back doesn't make much sense since, lest we forget, these women can heal gaping holes and other huge wounds without leaving any mark it was there. The only exception, again, was the torso scars from the operation.

[Shiek927]

By the way, I know it sort of got forgotten in our conversation....but thanks Sagara for those translations

In all honesty, I have to admit....Anastasia may finally be growing on me - I never agreed or liked the huge obsession people had with her (or Dietrich) when she first showed up - would have been better spent obsessing over older characters that don't get a smidgen of that....still, maybe it's just because her life was threatened and she was saved (which is a weird way to start liking somebody ), but I think I'm starting to like her.

Hopefully, at some point though, we'll actually start to learn more about her since we still know, well, almost nothing. She got saved by the Ghosts and now she is helping them...that's about as far as it's gotten so far, if I'm not mistaken.

[TheRussianMeatClob]

Originally Posted by Shiek927

Where did it go?

No, the question is, why didn't it go?

She got regenerated so the wound healed..... but then it comes back......

Um......

I can understand if was popular and people liked it, but Yagi still has to logically explain why it's still there; it plainly was superficial enough that it healed, because we see plainly that it was gone, and in her base form no less (so it's not like she's stuck with it unless she powers up...wait, that doesn't make sense anyway)....

It's not a scar like the scars from the operation....it's a wound that can, and did, heal...it coming back doesn't make much sense since, lest we forget, these women can heal gaping holes and other huge wounds without leaving any mark it was there. The only exception, again, was the torso scars from the operation.

Quite the quandary we have here. Oh well probably just a rather consistent oversight on Yagi's part. Probably one of those things that will never be explained but if it ever was...........Deneve most likely said it.

[Claymore!]

Sorry shiek I was writing a long reply but it somehow got deleted because I had to log back in. So I guess "agree to disagree" will do for now.

It really sucks because I was writing that for over 30 minutes. I guess I will reply to it tomorro after school.

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by Claymore!

Sorry shiek I was writing a long reply but it somehow got deleted because I had to log back in. So I guess "agree to disagree" will do for now.

It really sucks because I was writing that for over 30 minutes. I guess I will reply to it tomorro after school.

Oh GOD, i know what that feels like it....I bet you accidently pressed Ctrl + W right? I always used to do that and I'd accidently lose my stuff >_<

Give yourself awhile, and write back when you can -- I hate it when that happens because it's hard to get your groove back.

Originally Posted by TheRussianMeatClob

Quite the quandary we have here. Oh well probably just a rather consistent oversight on Yagi's part. Probably one of those things that will never be explained but if it ever was...........Deneve most likely said it.

We may indeed get it explained...I mean, it's so obvious, and I find it hard to believe that Helen or somebody isn't going to notice the giant X on her face that won't heal. Maybe she deliberately refuses to heal it to remember what the warriors did to her or something....which sounds nice I guess, even if that doesn't explain it healing -- it's not like she cut herself again or something.

Something like this isn't some vague thing - it's a giant X on one of the most popular characters....it will be pure laziness on Yagi's part if he doesn't elaborate on this; he probably will at some point.

====

Looking at Sagara's translations, I find it kind of funny how Deneve flat-out lies and says that Claire is resting in Rabona -- I guess, considering the circumstances, Miria has enough in her head right now

(Let's not forget that they dragged the fossilized poop back to the outskirts of Rabona from deep Lautrec)

[TheRussianMeatClob]

Originally Posted by Claymore!

Sorry shiek I was writing a long reply but it somehow got deleted because I had to log back in. So I guess "agree to disagree" will do for now.

It really sucks because I was writing that for over 30 minutes. I guess I will reply to it tomorro after school.

Dang I had that happen to me a couple times. A good thing to remember is that if you think you have been typing for too long copy the whole text and refresh the page hope that helps in the future.

[Claymore!]

Well I can always post tomorrow. But I can't in the morning or during the day because I have school and and too many AP classes that I can't screw off in.


But what the hell about Dragon Ball Z?
I love that show
It is a great show and kinda violent

Thats it for me. Good night

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by Claymore!

Well I can always post tomorrow. But I can't in the morning or during the day because I have school and and too many AP classes that I can't screw off in.


But what the hell about Dragon Ball Z?
I love that show
It is a great show and kinda violent

Thats it for me. Good night

Good luck Claymore!

Roflmao, I loved that show too growing up...I had to pick an example of a very straightforward anime/manga; that was the first one that came to mind

RussianMeatClob is right - sometimes when you reply, the website logs you off automatically because it's been so long and all your writing disappears when you refresh....always Ctrl+C your words after awhile so you won't lose it .

[TheRussianMeatClob]

Dragon Ball Z.....Violent?..... I guess it is. I guess my taste in Manga, Anime, Games & movies has desensitized me a good bit. Oh well

[The Based]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

Clare apparently is in Rabanon and Denev already has contact with her.

Huh? I thought that was a blatant lie so that Miria would not worry about Clare. Oh Clare? Yeaaaah, about her. You see Miria it's a really funny story...

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by The Based

Huh? I thought that was a blatant lie so that Miria would not worry about Clare. Oh Clare? Yeaaaah, about her. You see Miria it's a really funny story...

That's what I said ; Miria has enough on her head right now I suppose

Claire? Claire's on vacation

--

At any rate, I've been reading Deneve's speech/rant/whatever-you-prefer....

And, as I expected, I'm half-way about it...

She was at least sounded respectful; I mean, she did seem to come off that way - if I had to nitpick however...

The speech you gave earlier about needing our strength...needing our help as comrades...
Even if we lose our lives here, for me, this is what I always wanted to hear from you...Not all the comrades that are fighting here came because of your command. They came by their own will, on their own feet with honor and glory ...

.....What? You never heard that before? Miria has done speeches like that before - she always instills hope in the people around her when she creates her plans.

When they left from the North, she told everybody that they didn't have to follow her and she was not commanding them...she was no longer their commander because she relinquished that; they all followed her from their own free-will and, in a picture that makes a wallpaper, they all stand proudly as Miria proclaims they will avenge the ones lost in the North.

So how can she say that Miria has never said she needed them? Was it because she never explicitly said? She's made it plain several times through her actions and words since the beginning how important everyone is to her (the ironic part of this is that I've always complained that Miria was never as open with her comrades as she should be and that, while she is indeed very carebear, she needs to be more open and tell her friends how important they are to her -- the funny part is that I can't imagine Deneve of all people is more open and empathetic upfront then Miria is ) even if she's never explicitly said it (like Deneve ironically)...it feels a little, well, weird, that that's seemingly what Deneve has been waiting to here. Perhaps it's because she suddenly felt less valued because Miria went off on her own, even if that's completely not the case at all (the case is Miria being a carebear - essentially the exact opposite).

So....I don't know - Claymore! and others undoubtedy will say I'm twisting it up to make Deneve look bad; I guess I'm just not crazy for Deneve being the group's blunt mother all of a sudden and taking the stage in talking to Miria like this, especially when all the others, Tabitha specifically, has alot more to say to her....though as a whole, all of them should have spoken to Miria, not just Deneve.

Oh well

[Gooral]

Thank you SagaraSouske for your "summary" .

As for Clare, your over-interpretation perfectly shows why we can't agree on Teresa vs. Priscilla fight. "She is resting in Rabanon" only means that Clare is alive (but she is in the blob). Naturally Deneve didn't want to worry Miria in the middle of the fight so she didn't tell her the whole truth (so she didn't even lie here).

Anyway, it's nice to see how swiftly Yagi explained the sword in Hysteria's throat (though I wonder what Duff must have swallowed to spew the rods ). Also Dee turns out to be an offensive warrior so either she will partially-awaken or Yuma and Cynthia will heal her (they could pay the debt that way, when they were rescued by Dee). In addition, it turns out that my last suspicion was right and Miria jumped from the threads which is rather stupid IMO since she had too perfect timing.

I also don't like how Hysteria is being treated as a retard and being shown as such (and in every chapter possible). It's rather obvious what Miria and the rest will try to do so if Hysteria just follows Miria or someone (while ignoring the rest) to the arena where Roxy and Cassie fight I will make a facepalm since Yagi will give her an intelligence of a dog.

And Miria's thoughts show perfectly how broken power levels are in Claymore...

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske's translation

Denev: Goals like: A outcome where no one in the team dies, and every under you are protected from harm is beautiful to behold. But in reality such ideal is only a fantasy and impossible.

I'm holding you to your word Yagi. If no one dies in the next chapter Claymore will fall further in my ranking.

Originally Posted by Shiek927

Looking at Sagara's translations, I find it kind of funny how Deneve flat-out lies and says that Claire is resting in Rabona -- I guess, considering the circumstances, Miria has enough in her head right now

How is it a lie?

[Shiek927]

How is it a lie?

Well, maybe "lie" is a strong word....she basically implies though that Claire is chilling in bed with a magazine which is pretty far from the truth....