BayTSP using crawlers in order to obtain ip's from torrents and to send DMCA....

[TigerII]

That is the thing, it is a hobby for me. I am not a hardcore fan. I am not going get sued over anime. I have been using streaming sites for a while now, but eventually they will probably either get shut down, or sold out. If it moves into IRC, then that is what I guess I would use. Even that isn't untouchable. With Net Neutrality being on the lobbyist board, I figure it is only a matter of time before that goes away. When that happens, you lose all privacy to the whim of your IP.

As for the DVDs, that would be expensive to do by yourself, and I don't know anyone personally who watches anime.

[WolfCoder]

Veoh is owned by Time Warner, YouTube by Google, and so on. it's hard to imagine them getting sold out. IRC is going nowhere, net neutrality or not. The only thing I see the end of here is BitTorrent, as it's replaced with a secure alternative. This stuff has happened 2 times before and I sure won't miss anything Aniplex has done, after looking at their records.

Everyone remembers Media Factory from some time ago, this is all old news. At first, honestly, it did get a rise out of me but now it's just annoying to hear people say it's the end of Anime for like the 5000th time. Search for "end of Anime" in this forum and you'll see some old fossils of the past of people saying the same thing. In fact I found a post of myself in a thread from exactly a year ago that almost looks just like this one, only it involved Odex.

[Autophage]

I wanted to pass along a recent experience I had on Friday (10.17.08) for the sake of people trying to protect their IPs. My internet was disabled for DLing Sekirei (please don't remind me. I'm aware of the Aniplex / BayTSP thing now)

This is the 2nd time this has happened with an Aniplex show. The first time I was completely unprotected, but the 2nd time I thought I was prepared. I spent hours exhaustively digging through many resources on hiding my IP with proxy software and encryption and protocol techniques.

I wound up using TOR. After I was certain that I setup my proxy settings correctly, I tested my public IP at IP checking websites and sure-as-spit the number was different from my IP! I'm invisible! I'm invin...ci...ble... why is my internet disabled? At the time I downloaded the torrent file for my copy of Sekirei only my Torrent Client was proxied, but not my browser. I don't know if the torrent tracker makes a record of the IP used for the DL of the file, but I think that was my opening that earned me my second DMCA lockout.

I've seen a lot of very informed and aware posters in here, so I was hoping I could get your thoughts on this.

[Xanas]

The tracker doesn't register the file download because that's done via a different protocol (http). The tracker webserver could provide who downloaded torrents along with their ip address (which would be really unusual unless the tracker were asked to provide this ).

The other possibility would be that the TOR network servers were asked for your actual IP and they gave it up.

No matter how you look at it you have a bit of an unusual situation there, unless you were mistaken about the circumstances.

[Autophage]

I guess I'll never know, and the only moral I got outta this was I wasted 3 hours trying internet anonymity.

I'll just defer to Cruchyroll for situations like this from now on unless I read some be-all-end-all how-to.

Thanks for your input.

[raijinshou]

Instead of watching streaming, I'd suggest go for fansubber channel in IRC.

[WolfCoder]

That's what I'm saying, BitTorrent is like communism- it looks good on paper but it just doesn't work.

Also Tor by default works for your internet browsing (your IP appearing to be masked) but when you turned on your torrents it didn't go through your proxy. PeerGuardian seems to be the only deterrent, but the best way is to just use IRC, Veoh, Crunchy, ect. I suggest using a normal proxy if you're going to torrent, but I really suggest you don't torrent at all and just go to IRC, torrents never worked for me in the first place anyway.

It also sounds like you don't quite know exactly how proxies work, saying "Only my Torrent Client was proxied". If it was actually proxied then it wouldn't have happened, it's where you send data to some server that does the work for you. The IP of that server is what everyone sees.

I'm not really a die hard fan myself, I only watch it a little at a time here and there whenever I feel like it. It sort of grew from the fact that I didn't feel like doing what is actually my religious-style hobby of video game programming and playing, it's much easier for me to just hit the IRCs and chat idly with the fansubbers and peers or to look out of the Veoh streams. They've even got 100% legit TV shows there too with commercials, I wouldn't mind if that is what watching Anime online turned into.

[Autophage]

Originally Posted by WolfCoder

It also sounds like you don't quite know exactly how proxies work, saying "Only my Torrent Client was proxied". If it was actually proxied then it wouldn't have happened, it's where you send data to some server that does the work for you. The IP of that server is what everyone sees.

I know how proxies work. I'm an MCSA. I meant I wasn't using a proxy on my browser too, just on Azureus, so I wondered if when I clicked the torrent file if my true IP was recorded in the tracker for those BayTSP dogs to see.

TOR goes a step further than a single proxy server though, with it's granularity, so that's why I tried it first.

I obeyed the manual religiously, I triple-checked all settings, but I was also aware of its vulnerabilities, so I wasn't going in ignorant. I knew there were holes so I wasn't expecting perfection.

In the end, I accept that I was putting myself in a compromising position.

Originally Posted by raijinshou

Instead of watching streaming, I'd suggest go for fansubber channel in IRC.

The first and last time I used IRC was for Chobits. When it was still broadcasting. And I hadn't heard of bit torrent yet . Too inconvenient. Until cost/benefit of BTs ease of use is outweighed by DMCAs or more disconnects (or worse) I'll stick with the tried and true and stay away from trouble series.

[lamer_de]

I meant I wasn't using a proxy on my browser too, just on Azureus, so I wondered if when I clicked the torrent file if my true IP was recorded in the tracker for those BayTSP dogs to see.

While the server you downloaded something will usually log your IP, the only way for BayTSP to get it is to either run the server you download the torrent from or send a DMCA/subpoena/some other legal-mumbo-jumbo to the company who hosts the server and to ask them to give them all IPs who downloaded that specific torrent. Possible, but usually fairly unlikely, I guess. While of course it's possible to use BT with TOR (https://wiki.torproject.org/noreply/...WTO/BitTorrent), it probably won't work as the average throughput seems to be around 4kb or so for me most of the time (and as that manual explains, puts a lot of strain on TOR, and proxy'ing only the connection to the server will obviously not protect against clients run by BayTSP). So yeah, if you really did use tor for all connections over BT, there is no way for a company like BayTSP to get your IP adress over that. I don't know how exactly the legal situation on how to obtain IP adresses from a third party in the US is (i.e. by not running a client that directly logs), but I guess that a DMCA is not enough (see Viacom who had to sue google to get data on how many times videos were played on youtube). Else 1-click-download-services or newsgroup provider would've closed down in the US already :P

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by Autophage

I wound up using TOR.

Tor is not meant for p2p traffic, etc.

Originally Posted by Autophage

I know how proxies work. I'm an MCSA. I meant I wasn't using a proxy on my browser too, just on Azureus, so I wondered if when I clicked the torrent file if my true IP was recorded in the tracker for those BayTSP dogs to see.

It is more likely that you only sent the tracker info through TOR and used the standard internet for peers (or for file data since the azureus/TOR walkthrough makes it clear that it will not route file data through TOR unless you are super seeding.)

The first and last time I used IRC was for Chobits. When it was still broadcasting. And I hadn't heard of bit torrent yet .

BT didn't exist back then...

[WolfCoder]

I think IRC is pretty sweet, and so is the Veoh downloader (Veoh claims the downloader is protected from external attacks but I wouldn't trust it further than I can throw it), but generally all the above methods have worked much faster and less network-bogging for me than torrents.

[Autophage]

Originally Posted by WolfCoder

I think IRC is pretty sweet, and so is the Veoh downloader (Veoh claims the downloader is protected from external attacks but I wouldn't trust it further than I can throw it), but generally all the above methods have worked much faster and less network-bogging for me than torrents.

I have the privilege of a 15Mbps/768Kbps connection. BT DLs take no time.

Originally Posted by Lamer_de

it probably won't work as the average throughput seems to be around 4kb or so for me most of the time

That might explain why I was still getting top speeds on high-seed-high-peer torrents.

I'm not exactly a quick learner, I might've missed some protocol setting which would've guaranteed my anonymity and then gotten the pathetic speeds you're talking about

Originally Posted by Baoyab

file data since the azureus/TOR walkthrough makes it clear that it will not route file data through TOR unless you are super seeding.)

pwnt

Originally Posted by bayoab

BT didn't exist back then...

You're right. It didn't, I used Direct Connect for the next 2 years and was late to the BT train. I was chasing the caboose months after the train left the station.

[WolfCoder]

It doesn't matter if you inject it, smoke it, sniff it, or drink it, it's still Anime. Just don't do it out in the open where you're easily seen. But you know, it is obvious Aniplex doesn't want you seeing their stuff, so you should honor it.

[Vagrant0]

Originally Posted by WolfCoder

It doesn't matter if you inject it, smoke it, sniff it, or drink it, it's still Anime. Just don't do it out in the open where you're easily seen. But you know, it is obvious Aniplex doesn't want you seeing their stuff, so you should honor it.

Yep, don't download Aniplex shows, don't watch Aniplex shows, don't buy Aniplex shows, don't mention Aniplex, beyond suggestions to discourage mentioning Aniplex, shows to friends who are also interested in anime. The popularity of many anime outside Japan only exists because there were people subbing, downloading and watching those episodes. If Aniplex wants to exclude themselves from this process, I say we honor their wishes, and let them know what sort of positive role fansubbing eventually means for their product. This is not to suggest that downloading anime is a particularly good activity, only that witchhunts like this should be met with some hostillity toward companies who use them. The only way to stop things like this is by hurting the companies in their pocketbooks.

[einhorn303]

Originally Posted by Vagrant0

Yep, don't download Aniplex shows, don't watch Aniplex shows, don't buy Aniplex shows, don't mention Aniplex, beyond suggestions to discourage mentioning Aniplex, shows to friends who are also interested in anime. The popularity of many anime outside Japan only exists because there were people subbing, downloading and watching those episodes. If Aniplex wants to exclude themselves from this process, I say we honor their wishes, and let them know what sort of positive role fansubbing eventually means for their product. This is not to suggest that downloading anime is a particularly good activity, only that witchhunts like this should be met with some hostillity toward companies who use them. The only way to stop things like this is by hurting the companies in their pocketbooks.

I however, will be doing the exact opposite in order to counteract your curious vendetta. By promoting them to my friends, buying Aniplex releases on a higher priority, etc. Aniplex made one of my favorite shows ever...Kamichu, and I believe they fully deserve to preserve the rights to their own intellectual property. I think ¨oh noez boycotting¨ a company for such petty reasons is a bit childish.

[Vagrant0]

Originally Posted by einhorn303

I however, will be doing the exact opposite in order to counteract your curious vendetta. By promoting them to my friends, buying Aniplex releases on a higher priority, etc. Aniplex made one of my favorite shows ever...Kamichu, and I believe they fully deserve to preserve the rights to their own intellectual property. I think ¨oh noez boycotting¨ a company for such petty reasons is a bit childish.

It's not an issue of rights, it's an issue of the methods used to protect those rights. Technically, Aniplex did not make the show, the writers made the show. Aniplex is a production company who just buys the show, and releases it. If it was a good show, some other company would certainly step in. Your "devotion" to Aniplex really only exists because they decided to buy that show, show devotion and appreciation to the wrtiers instead. BayTSP is the sort of company which criminalizes all forms of P2P traffic. P2P is a very sound system for legal applications, however even those legal applications are getting scrutinized and limited by ISPs because of the messages they get sent from these companies. I am not saying that we should have the right to download whatever we want, but believe that a company which seeks to alienate their consumer base (people who download part of a series and buy the whole thing when they find it good) should get exactly what they want. An end to internet sharing, and subsequent loss of sales due to a decreased popularity due to nobody seeing the series without buying it.

It is only through something as drastic as this that they might even considder legal alternatives to torrenting fansubs. But those alternatives need to be something which offers the same sort of quality and as little hassle. Given the choice between paying for a quality product, from a safe source, or taking your chances downloading something, most would be willing to pay or deal with ads.

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by Vagrant0

It's not an issue of rights, it's an issue of the methods used to protect those rights. Technically, Aniplex did not make the show, the writers made the show. Aniplex is a production company who just buys the show, and releases it.

Half of the shows they have sent out C&Ds for are made by A-1 pictures who is Aniplex's animation studio. In other words, in addition to them (and the rest of the production committee) paying for the rights to animate the show, the shows creation, the marketing, and what else, they also animated it. The exceptions to this are Sekirei and Kara no Kyokai where Aniplex is on the production committees but their studio didn't animate it. Therefore, while it is impossible to say how much they have had to do with the show's creation, it is pretty likely they did more than just pay for distribution. (Ex: They are involved in planning, distribution, and many other things for Gurren Lagann.)

If it was a good show, some other company would certainly step in.

Not quite. If it was a truly hot property, then someone else might have bought the rights. However, for most of these properties, there is no loud clamoring for their production and therefore they may have never gotten made due to a lack of funding. There are many series in Japan that are canceled because nobody is willing to put the money up for them. Therefore, if Aniplex hadn't put up the money and staff, they probably wouldn't exist.

[Vagrant0]

Originally Posted by bayoab

Half of the shows they have sent out C&Ds for are made by A-1 pictures who is Aniplex's animation studio. In other words, in addition to them (and the rest of the production committee) paying for the rights to animate the show, the shows creation, the marketing, and what else, they also animated it. The exceptions to this are Sekirei and Kara no Kyokai where Aniplex is on the production committees but their studio didn't animate it. Therefore, while it is impossible to say how much they have had to do with the show's creation, it is pretty likely they did more than just pay for distribution. (Ex: They are involved in planning, distribution, and many other things for Gurren Lagann.)

Not quite. If it was a truly hot property, then someone else might have bought the rights. However, for most of these properties, there is no loud clamoring for their production and therefore they may have never gotten made due to a lack of funding. There are many series in Japan that are canceled because nobody is willing to put the money up for them. Therefore, if Aniplex hadn't put up the money and staff, they probably wouldn't exist.

Regardless, my statements were not aimed at completely ignoring anime produced by aniplex, so is essentially in line with the whole "protecting their rights" argument. Boycotting Animplex is because of the methods they have decided to use to protect their rights, not because those rights should not be protected. Rather than reach out to anime communities like this one, and provide legal alternatives, they have decided to attack a portion of the fanbase who may download episodes, but still ends up buying the DVD when it gets released.

In my mind, I see this as turning their back on the role anime communities like this one play in making the foreign market work. As has been mentioned repeatedly in this thread, there will ALWAYS be ways to download fansubs, trying to stop this is like trying to stop teenage pregnancy, it's gonna happen no matter what, but doesn't have to always happen. Using tactics like this only ends up making more people familiar with less public, tracable, methods. And because there are fewer people being able to view a series before buying it, there are fewer people actively talking about that series, and mentioning it to their friends. Which ultimately leads to decreased sales, and communities like this one drying up or being less public.

The problem is not that people are downloading fansubs of their product. The problem is that sales in general are down due to a slowing economy, and that many other anime companies are also biting the dust because of the economic downturn. Actions like this won't solve anything in the long run, and only prevent alternatives from being considdered. They want someone to blame, and want a solution which does not involve any real action on their part. Behavior like that just should not be encouraged.

As for the whole "production of a series" argument, you forget that many anime either start out as a manga or a h-game, often they are turned into anime because there was enough percieved interest and marketability in that original product. So yes, if it was something which one company thought was worth buying, another company may make the same assessment, but may not be paying as much. From an "artist's vision" standpoint, a production company could actually be detrimental to the success of the anime because of how they decided to market that product. There are also quite a few "in-house" anime which end up being total rubbish because they are created entirely for the purposes of being marketed to a certain group.

[einhorn303]

Originally Posted by Vagrant0

The problem is not that people are downloading fansubs of their product. The problem is that sales in general are down due to a slowing economy, and that many other anime companies are also biting the dust because of the economic downturn.

Actually the downturns in DVD sales started years ago, far before the current economic crisis...Geneon's death was over a year ago. And the economy was doing perfectly fine then. Low sales aren't caused by the economy, they're caused by a culture of entitlement and leeching, and the general devaluation of anime, that rampant fansubbing contributes to.

[cyth]

A few days ago, ADV's John Ledford said to ICv2:

Like any home media, anime DVD sales are fairly recession proof. A downturn might keep you from going on vacation, but that’s all the more reason to pick up the boxset you’ve been thinking of for the last few weeks.

And this is ADV, the company that's been doing pretty badly for the last year or so.

The current situation is a mixture of different reasons that produced this clusterfuck. And it's not just the economy or the companies that are at fault for the U.S. anime industry's decline, consumers are as well. The fact of the matter is we, the anime companies and fans alike, have failed to ride the momentum the medium got in 2000's and transform its core fan base into something akin Japanese fan base. Sure, the Internet has changed everything, but if we had prioritized anime high enough and bought enough DVDs and merchandise, this wouldn't have happened.

Then again, I'm kind of happy the downfall lead to a decrease of anime productions meant primarily for American audiences. Afro Samurai, never forget!