Guilty Crown - General Discussion

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by felix

@FlareKnight — don't you find it strange how many nice things are happening that involve her. I'm afraid they might do something stupid...

I just don't want to be suspicious . I want to believe in people !

Mostly because if it was the reverse I might be able to believe that Inori was suspicious if someone else had tricked him first. Sure, Ayase likes Gai and will probably do almost anything for him. But I don't think she's the type to do well at an indirect route. Seems easier for someone to manipulate her since she's direct than to manipulate others.

They could do something stupid, but I really hope they don't.

[felix]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

I just don't want to be suspicious . I want to believe in people !

Mostly because if it was the reverse I might be able to believe that Inori was suspicious if someone else had tricked him first. Sure, Ayase likes Gai and will probably do almost anything for him. But I don't think she's the type to do well at an indirect route. Seems easier for someone to manipulate her since she's direct than to manipulate others.

They could do something stupid, but I really hope they don't.

That's interesting but well, not exactly what I was thinking. Should have made it more obvious: death flag

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The issue is that those types of statements are often more provocative and contentious than a simple letter or numerical grade (unless the letter/numerical grade is well outside what the show typically receives).

For example, which of these two comments do you think is more likely to invite disagreement and debate?:

1) "My overall rating for Steins;Gate is 9/10."

2) "I find Steins;Gate to be more enjoyable than Madoka Magica. It's the best anime show I've seen so far this year!"

With the first comment, I heartily agree. With the second comment, I'm more likely to feel slightly disagreeable and want to debate (even though I would put both shows in my Top 5 of the year so far).

I'm sure there's a way to put it into words that's not offensive. (well, at least not offensive towards normal people that don't just get auto-offended at everything) Of course it depends on context but hey that's what we got brains for.

My biggest gripe with ratings is illustrated pretty well with your example. People treat the 9/10 as the same thing, just as you did there. And of course because it's so easy to throw out a number going with that logic leads one to the conclusion that ratings are "better" (because they are easier). But really what did you tell me with the "9/10"? At most I can decern "I liked it" and that's only because it's a 9. If it was a "8/10" it's totally ambigous to me if you gave it "fair rating", "it's bad", "it's average", or "it's good". Going down it just gets more and more abigous. 1,2,3,4/10, 9/10, and 10/10 (and the for-retards ratings 11/10, 12/10 ) are the only ones that are semi-clear just because of how extreme they are; yet still fail gracefully at delivering any particularly meanigful message.

Don't you find it strange how people would go though the trouble to write entire esseys, or more recently make full 30m-1h videos for the sole purpose of at the end throwing a arbitrary number that amounts to two-three words: "I liked it", "I hate it", "Not sure". Really? Thousands of years of wisedom and knowledge in the fields of linguistics and arts, and here we are, too dumb and lazy to put a proper conclusion of our thoughts into even simple words.

[edit]

Oh right before I forget, there's another big downside to ratings. When faced with the problem giving out a rating or rating (particularly a large number of entities at once) what people do is give out a random one then give others based on that. Since it's easier to do a comparison/difference then it is to compute a rating from zero. So say there are two shows that are compeltely different and both EQUALLY good. Depending on how the moon is currently aligned to the earth the first might get lower rating then the other or the other might get lower rating then the first. Basically bias. This easily propagates and eventually the difference in ratings between show A and show F (for example) become completely nonsense, even to the one rating. But you know people tend to believe their own lies, so it's not particularly noticeable...

[Flawfinder]

Personally, I don't use ratings, as they never express my true opinion. There are a lot of bad stuff that are so bad it's funny, but I'd still have to rate them lower than the stuff that bores me to death because they're bad.

[Soji]

Originally Posted by felix

I quite frankly have very little interest in realism in an animated series. I also find modern day obsession over realism overrated. It's like the only thing people know how to argue with.

That said I don't find him realistic. He's way too calm for the situation (most of the time he doesn't really think about it), he's also overreacts to various random things as opposed to thinking of his current situation. A good example would be how he got duped by GHQ guy. That was all very conveniently singleminded of him. The fact he has friends, which aparently he does talk to and care about him, makes his personality even more wierd. He's not normal at all, you don't need to teach a normal person to think properly which is where the series is going with Shu... (at the moment anyway)

Well, I don't, not that it makes a difference really.

He's really annoying (to me). But I said that already.

Him saying "this and that are my flaws" doesn't really excuse anything in my eyes. He said it in very broad all-catching wording too, so I don't really put much emphasis on it. It's like with Inori. Oh we're suppose to feel for Inori x Shu but she's done so little to nothing I can't really see why I should care for Inori and Shu's relationship.

One word won't excuse a chracter. Why do you suggest that somehow if a character declares himself annoying then I'm suppose to like him?

Like I said in my other post , I just thought you were a little too harsh against Shu.
That's why I said my opinion on the whole thing But it was not my intention to suggest that if the same character just said its flaws you have to like him.
If is that what it seem i mean ,I apologize because it was not what I meant.
I just wanted to point out that the same Shu knows his flaws.
But I understand where you're coming from and I also agree on some things you said.

I don't care to be honest. Shu has a deeper relationship with Ayase at this point then he did with Inori over 4 episodes, as far as I'm concerned. That speaks loads of how weak his relationship with Inori is at the moment. And they barely talk so I find it hard to imagine their relationship being anything but physical; ie. if Inori wasn't his type, or wearing that redicoulas outfit, Shu wouldn't give a damn.

Here I agree completely.
I mean in the first 3 episodes I have some doubts about how their relationship would develop.
But after the episode 4 I thought I was wrong , but after the revelation of the episode 5 I can not even imagine how they will talk to each other without creating tension.

Originally Posted by felix

That's interesting but well, not exactly what I was thinking. Should have made it more obvious: death flag

I think like you here , I also said something like that in my first post that I did on this topic on page 104.
I do not really want it happen(beacuse I really like Ayase) but I really think they want to use Ayase as plot devices to made Shu mature and give him a reason to stay with the Undertaker.
I mean I do not know what kind of relationship will be (if only friends or romantic) but I really feel that Ayase will become someone important for Shu in that group. Important enough to give a really strong impact to Shu when she dies(but I still hope does not happen of course) , hell maybe even strong enough to make him recall the memories about lost Christmas.
Or at least that's what I think and I hope that the anime denies the possible of Ayase death.
But unfortunately I see her a perfect candidate for this role.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by felix

I quite frankly have very little interest in realism in an animated series. I also find modern day obsession over realism overrated....

Nice to see my own mantra coming from someone else. In my opinion, anime does fantasy and myth a lot better than it does realism.

...Because by being so down he's pulling the entire series down? It's like this, the setting, characters, world, antagonists, politics, etc etc, all scream: anger, courageous, fighting, sci-fi, synergy, teamwork, the big picture/the future. But Shu's character speaks the exact opposite: angst, cawardly, pacifist, normal/average, solitude, self, now/here. His traits aren't wrong for a characters, they're wrong in context....

This is a reasonable point of view, but I can't help thinking that it sounds like you expecting a series of a certain kind and not getting it and then refusing to accept what you do get. This is how I see a lot of the criticism here. This is not a shounen show, for me. Which is a good thing, since I tend not to like shounen shows. My favorite anime series ever is Simoun. This season I most like Kimi to Boku, Chihayafuru and Ben-Tou. And I like this show.

...Horizon has a lot more material behind it, while GC might well be just a 1 season thing. It's also not about the post count but how meaty the discussion is. Someone with 10x less posts then me doesn't necesarly contribute 10x less.... But really let's avoid going into this "who's the superior show" nonsense...

You're responding to my post without actually responding to what I said. I didn't say this show was better or anything like that. Just that it had more posts and was generating a lot of interest. Period. The "which show is better" stuff is from you, not from me.

I thought you were even more unfair a couple of pages ago in jumping off from someone's post to set up a straw man of the poster refusing any criticism. In fact, it is only the unrelieved constant criticism that got the poster down -- and even then, they were not telling you to stop, just saying how they felt and hoping to awaken some understanding. I tried to give you a neg rep for that post, but since I had previously given you so much positive rep for other things, the system wouldn't let me, lol.

I hate to think that so many people are hanging around this show just to get their rocks off by criticizing it. But I guess it's a matter of "hope springs eternal," and you are waiting for it to turn into the kind of show you expected.

@Flawnalyst, Random32 -- I think Shinkai is a genius, but plot may not be his strength. 5cm/sec was like a series of visual/aural haiku, conveying a deep understanding of the reality of the world, and its pathos. The overall plot intensified that, but was not the main driver of the film. I think of it as a Buddhist film, conveying the unsatisfactoriness and suffering of this beautiful world.

As for ratings, I don't find them very useful. I can never really decide what number to give a show, since each show has so many aspects. I can only say how much I do or do not enjoy it. And other people's ratings don't help me much, since my preferences differ from other people's much of the time.

[Iby]

http://guardcancel.com/first-look-at...ost-christmas/
So...

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by felix

He's way too calm for the situation (most of the time he doesn't really think about it), he's also overreacts to various random things as opposed to thinking of his current situation.

Isn't this a bit of a contradiction in terms? How can you be "way too calm" and "overreacting" at the same time?

That being said, I think I know where you're coming from.

So what I take from it is this - Shu is trying to keep a cool, calm, and collected head about everything. He's trying to not get too far sucked into a situation that is very explosive and emotionally-charged. This is just reflecting a basic desire for self-preservation. Most people don't want to be death-defying action heroes as a permanent feature of life (sure, having an "awesome adventure" every now and then may be great, but if you keep it up for too long, you're much more likely to get killed or severely injured), and most people would not want to be publicly associated with a known "terrorist organization".

However, try as he might, Shu is only human, so occasionally his emotions get the better of him, and he may overreact to something "random" as a means of venting his fears and frustrations over the current situation as a whole.

A good example would be how he got duped by GHQ guy.

Major Segai's arguments placed a seed of doubt in Shu's head. That's because they're just plausible enough to cause many people in Shu's situation to have second thoughts, imo. Now, if Shu had a better understanding of what Funeral Parlor was fighting for, and why, then I think that Major Segai's words would have had less effect on Shu.

But given that Shu knows precious little about the real goals of Funeral Parlor, I can't fault him for being somewhat swayed by Segai's words in Episode 4.

Furthermore, Segai offers the tempting "Get your normal life back" option.

I think that Shu is internally conflicted. He wants to do what feels right to him (in a moral/ethical sense), but I think he also wants a normal teenage life for the simple ease/comfort it offers in the way of routine and predictability. The challenge for Shu will likely be coming to accept the fact that a normal life is no longer a viable option for him, as the situation will indeed force him to eventually aim for something other than that.

[konart]

Spoiler for geass/gundam/whatever:

It's a pity Leucocyte 1 is not a colony...

[endarion88]

for now i think shuu is doing well and i belive he's also right in keeping the transmitter, gai is waaaay too suspicous (i still belive he'll be the evil boss at the end) and also the only one he trusted backstabbed him, truth or not i think is impossible for him to trust inori after what she said in ep 05, if i was in shuu place at this point i will go for ayase "route" and treath inori like trash

[Soji]

Originally Posted by Iby

http://guardcancel.com/first-look-at...ost-christmas/

Thanks for the link.
Is it just me or Scrooge is really Shu alike from what little we see?
Just only a more mature version of him , I wonder if he and Shu does not come from the same experiment?(Obviously, if we go on the theory that Shu is also an experiment or test subject )
For Inori and Carol I don't think I have to said anything
The two of them seem to be twins.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Major Segai's arguments placed a seed of doubt in Shu's head. That's because they're just plausible enough to cause many people in Shu's situation to have second thoughts, imo. Now, if Shu had a better understanding of what Funeral Parlor was fighting for, and why, then I think that Major Segai's words would have had less effect on Shu.

But given that Shu knows precious little about the real goals of Funeral Parlor, I can't fault him for being somewhat swayed by Segai's words in Episode 4.

The thing is though, is that Shu actually tried to find out by asking Gai why he wanted to release a murderer but Gai wouldn't give him an answer. I don't think Segai's words really had that much of an effect or shouldn't have anyway. It's just that he can't trust Gai, which is actually totally understandle since Gai has little besides proving that Shu can't trust him (especially since he found out that Gai made Inori manipulate him). So really it's all Gai's fault for being such a douche.

Gai's just lucky that Shu still wants to find out if Gai is someone he can trust. Probably because he doesn't really have any other choice (he's pretty much a wanted criminal now) but most likely because he's an obstacle in the way of Inori (And I guess partly because he's finally finding a place where he belongs. It's obvious he's always felt isolated and doesn't have any true friends who really know what he's like and what he thinks about)

[DXMichael]

I think Shu pretty much lost his freedom the very moment the guy from GHQ witnessed him use the void power he has. No doubt whether he activates the transmitter or not, they'll be looking for him and will certainly use him for their own intentions once he's in their possession.

Does that mean GHQ would have allowed his freedom even if they didn't witness his power? Not necessarily, they may have even killed him for being with Funeral Parlor, so in a way his void power may have saved him from death, but lost his freedom.

[konart]

Originally Posted by DXMichael

I think Shu pretty much lost his freedom the very moment the guy from GHQ witnessed him use the void power he has. No doubt whether he activates the transmitter or not, they'll be looking for him and will certainly use him for their own intentions once he's in their possession.

Does that mean GHQ would have allowed his freedom even if they didn't witness his power? Not necisserily, they may have even killed him for being with Funeral Parlor, so in a way his void power may have saved him from death, but lost his freedom.

Spoiler for spoiler:

Transmitter is no more. It was programmed so that Leucocyte would fire at it's coordinates - killing both Shu and Gai.

[hyl]

Spoiler for episode 6:

Episode 6 was much better than that i had expected. The first half gave us character development for Gai and the 2nd half the action.
Even Gai can't always keep his image of being the leader who everyone looks to up.
Eventhough i disliked the deus ex machina at the end, it's probably relevant for the future episodes who that other girl was who appeared from Inori when Shu pulled out that new void. It's probably too soon for Gai to die yet, but it would have been a chance to kill him off in this episode.
Also that character relations chart from a few pages ago seems accurate now, seeing that Shu does look up to Gai after this episode.

edit:

Spoiler for that pen transmitter:

That thing was in retrospect kinda pointless

[DXMichael]

Originally Posted by konart

Spoiler for spoiler:

Transmitter is no more. It was programmed so that Leucocyte would fire at it's coordinates - killing both Shu and Gai.

Is that so?

Heh, thats ashame :P

[felix]

Originally Posted by Soji

Like I said in my other post , I just thought you were a little too harsh against Shu.
That's why I said my opinion on the whole thing But it was not my intention to suggest that if the same character just said its flaws you have to like him.
If is that what it seem i mean ,I apologize because it was not what I meant.
I just wanted to point out that the same Shu knows his flaws.
But I understand where you're coming from and I also agree on some things you said.

If I somehow offended you I'm sorry. When I throw out opinions they might as well be thrown into the wind. I don't direct any of my thoughts towards others. If you got the impression I was calling you out or anything like that, again I'm sorry, it was definetly not my intention.

Originally Posted by Soji

But unfortunately I see her a perfect candidate for this role.

Let's hope it's a plot-trap! We think that's what will happen, therefore it won't, because it's too obvious.

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

Nice to see my own mantra coming from someone else. In my opinion, anime does fantasy and myth a lot better than it does realism.

What no sci-fi? Agree on fantasy, disagree on myth slightly; anime tends to warp mythology — I don't think I've seen to many completely accurate ones. If you mean myth as in mythological elements in fantasy, that I agree with.

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

This is a reasonable point of view, but I can't help thinking that it sounds like you expecting a series of a certain kind and not getting it and then refusing to accept what you do get. This is how I see a lot of the criticism here. This is not a shounen show, for me. Which is a good thing, since I tend not to like shounen shows. My favorite anime series ever is Simoun. This season I most like Kimi to Boku, Chihayafuru and Ben-Tou. And I like this show.

Well not really. I've said this before but I don't HATE the series, I just hate don't like some elements in it. I like for example...

• the funeral parlor people
• the big ass lazor-sat
• the school
• whole "fobidden city" theme
• the animation and action scenes; all pretty sweat
• the main villain (two-face one)
• the blond villain sort-of
• Gai and his over the top plans are kind of cool (anything to do with Shu aside)
• Ayase is pretty cool, and Ep6 looks like it has a new cool character in the preview
• the mechs... so-so. I like Ayases, don't really like the blocky GHQ ones, the way they work is still pretty interesting to watch though.
• Catgirl antics are kind of funny (I don't really like the Inori fanservice though) — yeah it's kind of over the top but that's why I like it.

So I just happen to not like certain things about it which end up into these large debates. Nothing wrong with that. I don't enjoy it when I see it and I also have a strong opinion on why I don't enjoy it, so unlike some other things where I need only warp my mind to the proper mindset to enjoy it, here it's just impossible. (oh and I don't mean it like GC is the only case, just one of few)

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

You're responding to my post without actually responding to what I said. I didn't say this show was better or anything like that. Just that it had more posts and was generating a lot of interest. Period. The "which show is better" stuff is from you, not from me.

Hm. Yeah, ok my bad. But the other part still stands. There's a lot more material to work with. It's also an adaptation, so it makes more sense to have a forum since it gathers the fans of the different medium togheter in one place.

[thundrakkon]

Originally Posted by hyl

Spoiler for that pen transmitter:

That thing was in retrospect kinda pointless

It served as a character builder for Shu. If Shu pushed it, he would have given in to his uncertainty and weaknesses (nevermind the fact that he would probably die as well). If he did not, then he has learned patience.

Either way, episode 6 had a lot going on in it.

Spoiler for Episode 6, since most looking at the thread probably have not seen it yet:

Quite a few things happened this episode.

-Gai survived the Leukocyte firing. He was the only survivor, which makes me wonder if he has a special ability that saved him somehow. That in turn meant that he could have survived the firing of the Leukocyte at the end of the episode.

-Gai's pendent means a lot to him. Apparently, it belongs to the girl in Shu's memory, who resembles Inori, as seen in the ending credits.

-Inori set Shu up to listen to Gai's confessions. However, it is very possible that Gai set that up and told Inori to do what she did.

-As others have mentioned in the thread, the pen Shu has was a transmitter that would have caused the Leukocyte to fire on it when press with the sequence Segai mentioned. Gai already knew about the pen, but he had faith that Shu would not push it.

-There are more than 1 Leukocyte satellite.

-Inori's heart changed in this battle, allowing Shu to pull out an even more powerful weapon from her.

-Apparently Inori is called Cocytus by GHQ, although it is possible that they are referring to another entity yet to be seen. Cocytus, in Greek mythology, is the river of wailing around Hades.

-Kenji was very funny when he pulled his shirt to the side and told Shu to pull out his void. It gave a "take me" type of vibe.

-Daryl Yan is still a joke of an antagonist.

-Gai made a deal with Segai to erase all of Shu's data they had for Gai to push the pen and have the Leukocyte blow up the falling satellite and himself. However, Shu came in and blew up both Leukocyte satellites, so we do not know if the deal is still valid (however, it will allow Shu to go back to class). Segai has always been untrustworthy.

-Gai is still mad crazy with his fighting skills. He is able to take down an ace mech pilot by himself.

Btw, Tsugumi was back to her cute and awesome self this episode.

I am still wondering why Shu does not remember his childhood with Gai and the Inori-look-alike.

[felix]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Isn't this a bit of a contradiction in terms? How can you be "way too calm" and "overreacting" at the same time?

That being said, I think I know where you're coming from.

So what I take from it is this - Shu is trying to keep a cool, calm, and collected head about everything. He's trying to not get too far sucked into a situation that is very explosive and emotionally-charged. This is just reflecting a basic desire for self-preservation. Most people don't want to be death-defying action heroes as a permanent feature of life (sure, having an "awesome adventure" every now and then may be great, but if you keep it up for too long, you're much more likely to get killed or severely injured), and most people would not want to be publicly associated with a known "terrorist organization".

However, try as he might, Shu is only human, so occasionally his emotions get the better of him, and he may overreact to something "random" as a means of venting his fears and frustrations over the current situation as a whole.

It's not really a contradiction. Maybe I should phrase it like this: he's calm when he's in the middle of the enemy, the unknown, or about to do sprint-of-death towards the enemy, talking with an enemy commander, yet, he totally loses it when it comes to normal conversations with normal people in normal surroundings?

I don't disagree at all with everything else you said, to put it one way. It's just not on my radar. When I see those scenes I don't percieve what might be going though his head, but how he's reacting. And, deep reasons asside, his reaction is just boring or annoying to watch. And this is animation not a book we're talking about so obviously I like putting a big load of emphasis on that. If it was a book maybe I would be more forgiving and understanding, and think of those things like you do.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

But given that Shu knows precious little about the real goals of Funeral Parlor, I can't fault him for being somewhat swayed by Segai's words in Episode 4.

Ah but look at it this way... does he know the real goals of GHQ? They're not a "respected" authority either. If Ep1 was any indication they should be the god damn enemy regardless if Shu has affilition to Funeral Parlor or not. It seems out of character on some levels, or rather it makes Shu's character a little too weak to just buy into everything everyone says... (the best back-stabber for life scene was already more then enough IMO)

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I think that Shu is internally conflicted. He wants to do what feels right to him (in a moral/ethical sense), but I think he also wants a normal teenage life for the simple ease/comfort it offers in the way of routine and predictability. The challenge for Shu will likely be coming to accept the fact that a normal life is no longer a viable option for him, as the situation will indeed force him to eventually aim for something other than that.

The shoving into hero status can't come soon enough.

[miketyson]

Episode 6 Summary: writers having an actual plan is confirmed, feels promising.

Somehow what this is really starting to remind me of is the manga adaption of Eureka Seven.

[DXMichael]

Just finished episode 6

Spoiler for Episode 6:

Damn, the guilt of the death of others such as Kyo can clearly be seen burdening Gai in this episode, looks like he isn't as bad as some of us thought he was. I really liked the scene where Gai and Shu talked in the confession room, where both had shots at each other and tried to prove a point. Shu didn't want to see Gai the way he was at that moment, probably because he had always seen Gai as a cold hearted person who he was jealous off, but seeing him with guilt and regrest made him think different about Gai as he saw what he was going through. As for Gai, i'm sure he didn't want to show any weakness and didn't want Shu to think that he was someone that didn't care.

Looks like Gai and Shu are finally accepting each other as the ending of this episode suggests, which is good in my opinion. They seem to work well together.