2009-03-21, 10:35 | Link #1021 | |
On a sabbatical
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Wellington, NZ
Age: 43
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Really, I haven't seen anyone reading such things on the train. Then again I usually only take JR.
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2009-03-21, 10:49 | Link #1024 |
ドジ
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In a house
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Speaking of which, is something like Toradora more mainstream than Suzumiya Haruhi or does it still fall into the "otaku" category?
Honestly, if you only look at plot and themes (i.e. ignoring the attractiveness of the female characters and the original medium of the story), the line between "mainstream" and "otaku" is quite fine. Clannad, especially After Story, would suit a mature female audience, and Toradora would not be out of place beside Kare Kano on a bookshelf. |
2009-03-21, 11:27 | Link #1025 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Depends on what you consider mainstream.
Haruhi falls under otaku category. Midnight shows like Toradora, or anything that comes on during any other time than prime time (+ maybe some morning shows) is pretty much all otaku culture. The only reason things like Haruhi garners some recognition is because otaku culture itself is pretty large. |
2009-03-21, 11:46 | Link #1026 | |
ドジ
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In a house
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The point I was trying to make in my last post was a hypothetical one: if something like Clannad's Nagisa/After Story route, for instance, were transposed to live action, it would probably enjoy a rather large demographic appeal. Similarly, Toradora could potentially be marketed to the readership of shoujo manga such as Kare Kano. In other words, if you remove all the fanservice and ignore the fact that the female:male ratio is a little distorted, the stories in many "otaku-geared" anime series are actually quite appropriate for the average housewife or student. Thus, I wonder why the production companies have not sought to broaden their audience. [Edit] Haruhi, on the other hand, has very deep roots in otaku culture so it's not a good example of something that could be targeted to the general public. (To de-otaku-ise Mikuru, for example, would require changing almost everything about her character and relationship to Haruhi.) [Edit2] Point of note: Just look at the AnimeSuki community (especially the newbies) and anime fandom in general outside Japan. Shows like Clannad draw significant numbers of ordinary teenage - including female - anime fans who are unaware of the stigma against "otaku-geared" shows in Japan. After all, I was one of them, and so were my female friends who introduced me to Key/Kyoani productions in the first place. Last edited by Yukinokesshou; 2009-03-21 at 12:18. |
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2009-03-21, 15:17 | Link #1027 | ||
進む道は武士道のみ
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Dying to get back to Japan (but currently near Chicago)
Age: 35
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Along the same lines is the use of “hot/sexy” in the States and then “cute/good looking” in Japan. For the States, that seems to be the most frequent compliment or evaluation given. Although the occasional “cute” or “good looking” is there, it’s all about how sexy or hot someone is. (probably has to do with the various industries selling that mindset, and how sex-driven the American society is) Over in Japan though, it’s the opposite. When a girl evaluates a guy, it’s all about how good looking his face is, and then maybe the “cool” aura he might have. His body, rarely comes into play. And then for evaluating a girl, it’s the same thing with how cute her face is, and then whether she has a “cute” aura around her. Now, this isn’t to say that there aren’t comments about sexiness here and there. I guess what I’m trying to point out, is that the attraction focus in Japan is the face, while in the States and probably most of the West, it’s the body. Quote:
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2009-03-21, 15:54 | Link #1028 | ||
ドジ
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In a house
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I've given my objective opinion: face or body, both are superficial. My subjective opinion is you can learn more about a person by looking at the face than the body since the face carries expressions and emotions. Quote:
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2009-03-23, 01:04 | Link #1029 | |
進む道は武士道のみ
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Dying to get back to Japan (but currently near Chicago)
Age: 35
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I'm not sure why. Maybe it has something to do with art style. Shoujo does have its own distinct style. Maybe story type isn't enough to market it that way. |
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2009-03-24, 13:59 | Link #1030 | |
( ಠ_ಠ)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
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Absolutely not. I don't know who told you this, but if you're caught reading bishoujo stuff in a train, regardless of it being manga, trust me majority of people will think you kimoi.
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2009-03-24, 14:19 | Link #1031 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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aye, *MANGA* is almost universally read.... but you shouldn't be seen reading the "wrong kind" (something not targeted to you).
Yes, its silly.... but despite otakudom, harajuku fashion and all the other eccentric stuff -- most of Japan prefers square pegs in square holes very strongly. That's why in Toradora, the simple act of Kitamura dying his hair was horrifying to the establishment and his friends. Its why it takes a government directive for office workers to loosen their ties in the summer when by all sanity people should be wearing yukata 24/7 in 100F heat. Personally I think a leather manga book protector would be a wise thing....
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2009-03-24, 16:38 | Link #1032 | |
ドジ
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In a house
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Is there no "happy medium" like that which exists with the majority of anime fans outside Japan? Within Japan, it seems as if one is either an otaku or a run-of-the-mill square peg in a square hole. Are there even people in Japan like you and me: engineers and fathers or medical students with a normal, healthy appreciation of various anime genres? Or, ahem, junior doctors on call exhausted after an emergency operation and plumping down at 2am in the doctors' mess to watch the otaku-geared anime airing at that time, only to be called back to action by the annoying beep of their pager. ... Would these otherwise ordinary people be labelled "otaku" in Japan? ... "otaku" being a word I associate with obsessed and constantly fantasising beings out of touch with the realities of life (like the main character in Densha Otoko and his friends) That's rather funny, don't you think? Art style demarcating a barrier between a popular and accepted mainstay of Japanese society, and a genre restricted to a subculture scorned by the rest of society. Last edited by Yukinokesshou; 2009-03-24 at 17:03. |
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2009-03-24, 17:32 | Link #1033 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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From what I've gathered, there are a lot of "normal" people who do like the anime fan scene -- but they wear masks in public or go to a fair amount of effort not to be labeled. Watch those "street dance moments" where a bunch of people break into dance -- most of them have face coverings for anonymity. Anime tends to be watched solo by these folks or with thoroughly trusted peers.
I suspect there's a bit of practical frugality lurking in lack of approval. Fans tend to "waste" a lot of money on impractical collections (figures, etc). There's probably a number of people who have done master/doctoral theses on the sociology behind the whole thing -- because people will give public reasons for shunning anime, sometimes not realizing the actual underlying discomfort they're trying to rationalize.
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2009-03-24, 18:46 | Link #1034 | |
( ಠ_ಠ)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
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But if you're caught reading bishoujo stuff, you'll probably be labeled kimo-ota. kimo-ota (キモヲタ) = The bottom of the barrel, lowest breed of perverted otaku, who reads 2D porn. Like myself. (hey, but I read 3D porn too!)
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2009-03-24, 21:01 | Link #1035 | |
ドジ
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In a house
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How about a doctor in a white coat engrossed in one of these titles, startled by the sudden entrance of a patient into his clinic? What would that patient think, conflicted between the usual Japanese respect for doctors and natural tendency to label certain people "kimo-ota"? Or would such a doctor even face investigation from Japan's equivalent from Japan's equivalent of the General Medical Council on suspicion of being "unfit to practise"? Because I can imagine myself potentially becoming a doctor like that if I were Japanese and in Japan... -.- (Actually no, I wouldn't. The "hidden nature" that Vexx described is not too far from my actual behaviour: anime and manga are things I enjoy in solitude and wouldn't take into public. But, just hypothetically speaking...) |
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2009-03-24, 21:12 | Link #1037 | |
( ಠ_ಠ)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
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By bishoujo alone it simply means beautiful girl, but as a genre, it's used for pornographic (or adult) anime/game. It started when adult game magazines started calling the adult game genre bishoujo game, instead of just eroge or 18kin game.
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2009-03-24, 21:46 | Link #1038 | |
ドジ
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In a house
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Speaking of connotations (time to change topic, maybe?)... It seems like a number words that are completely innocent in Chinese have taken on perverted connotations in Japan. In Hong Kong, a gaggle of giggling airhead girls might pass by, and we'd jokingly call them "bishoujo" (美少女, pronounced mei-siu-neui in Cantonese). Someone does something silly but adorable, and we'd call it "kawaii" (可愛 ho-ngoi). But my Japanese friend once told me that she'd take offence to being called "kawaii" in Japan... |
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2009-03-24, 22:55 | Link #1039 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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That may have just been your friend.... first time I've heard of a Japanese female being offended at the idea of being called "kawaii". May depend on the age group or professional level in question or the context? Yeah, I'd certainly not call a vice-president of marketing "kawaii" in a business meeting, but if we were all acting like idiots at a karaoke booth afterwards and she put on silly rabbit ears to sing a tune about the moon --- "kawaii" it is. Context....
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Last edited by Vexx; 2009-03-24 at 23:17. |
2009-03-26, 00:29 | Link #1040 | |||
進む道は武士道のみ
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Dying to get back to Japan (but currently near Chicago)
Age: 35
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Second Vexx's kawaii statement.
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Well the art style thing can have something to do with people reading what they're "supposed" to read. Quote:
I could actually see that doctor getting at the least reprimanded if word got around. Quote:
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culture, discussion, japan, japanese culture |
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