2012-10-21, 19:00 | Link #61 | ||||
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There really is only so many places you can go with a high school romance comedy that's just a high school romance comedy. Sure, with good execution it can still be a good show, but the basic narrative idea behind the show does place some limitations on it. Quote:
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If you're going to make an argument like this, the absolute least you can do is provide a couple supporting examples for your argument. Well, please put them out there. Let's see just how similar this "a lot of similar fiction" really is... Quote:
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2012-10-21, 19:18 | Link #62 | |
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@Triple_R
The way how you are presenting star trek with it's endless possibility depends on the execution, not on the concept itself. The reason why i am saying this is that the original premise of Star trek is so extremely broad and maybe even vague, that you can actually expand it with infinite possibilities due to the abilities of the person who writes the stories. Quote:
Viewer ratings doesn't mean that much , seeing that kids shows will always be more popular than otaku shows. It doesn't help that most animes intended for otakus are broadcasted at midnight. |
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2012-10-21, 19:27 | Link #63 | |
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Not all shows are trying to be giant sci-fi/fantasy universes that can spawn and support hundreds of different stories/worlds/characters and so on. If your whole point is that some concepts are broader in scope than others... well, no kidding. But "execution" is about managing and exceeding expectations within your scope. So I don't really understand the purpose of your "not all narrative concepts are created equal" argument. Isn't that obvious? The scope and scale are completely different. But, any narrative concept can be conveyed effectively and meaningfully to its target audience with the help of strong execution, and I think that was the argument of the thread OP. I don't think you can or should take any given show that comes back, look at its premise, and dismiss it because "that's no Star Trek!". You have to consider what each show is trying to do, and whether it delivers on what its premise promises.
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2012-10-21, 19:31 | Link #64 | |||
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Yes, the original premise of Star Trek is extremely broad and that is much of Star Trek's strength. Without such an extremely broad concept you never would have achieved five separate TV shows (three running for seven seasons each!), numerous movies, and a massive dedicated multi-generational fanbase. Some narrative concepts really do have more potential (as in there's more places that you can go with it) than most others do. Quote:
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I wouldn't dismiss a show just because it has a generic concept. I mean, I really liked Tari Tari and that has a pretty generic concept behind it.
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2012-10-21, 19:36 | Link #65 | |
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The new possibility (sometimes even paired with a genre switch) came from the execution. |
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2012-10-21, 19:38 | Link #66 | ||
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2012-10-21, 19:45 | Link #67 |
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Maybe an example for my previous post: Medaka box. The one shot and the first few chapters were entirely different from the current shounen battle manga, because it was no longer about helping the people in need but Medaka fighting stronger people.
Even the idea of the "box" was scrapped after 15 or so chapters. |
2012-10-21, 19:45 | Link #68 | |
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If a story is changing direction from its original concept then it is by necessity making use of a new concept. That's not a matter of execution, that's a matter of coming up with a brand new core concept for a show, or a manga. Edit: Also, aren't you basically saying that some concepts fail ? I mean, if a story is changing from its original concept then that kind of suggests that the concept failed, doesn't it? Especially if the story goes on to work perfectly fine with a different core concept, because that shows that the initial problem presumably wasn't with the characters or the writers (unless they also changed of course). And if some concepts fail while others succeed...
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2012-10-21, 19:51 | Link #69 | |
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2012-10-21, 19:53 | Link #70 | ||
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(Meanwhile, the rather pointless side-debate continues... You can just redefine "concept" and "execution" to mean whatever you want because the two go hand-in-hand.)
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2012-10-21, 19:55 | Link #71 |
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The smoothness of the transition from one concept to the next is indeed depended on execution, of course. But that transition is only a small part of the final work, of course - Nobody is going to evaluate the work on the transition period alone.
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2012-10-21, 20:06 | Link #72 |
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I probably use the word "concept" differently than you do, seeing how you are wording it. Because in my own words a concept is a general idea before you have written something. In others words a "first design" and the first thing what is needed before you can write a story.
Last edited by hyl; 2012-10-21 at 20:22. Reason: typo |
2012-10-21, 20:30 | Link #73 |
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Well there is always a dissonance between what critics and the general population will think of works, and here it is no different. A seasoned critic is more likely to enjoy or give more points to something that truly strives to be something more than run of the mill, while someone in a general audience might not care at all so long as they had a good time.
This is present in the west in Hollywood. Look at what typically wins the Oscars every year, and then go look what the best selling movies were of each year. They're almost never the same, but a select group of professionals valued certain titles more. Anime is no different of course. That is why works like Naruto Shippuden continue to be the most popular anime titles (And nothing against Naruto, I admittedly still enjoy it when it's not on fillers). However, if someone sits here trying to tell me that the execution of these top titles is spot on, I can only shake my head in disbelief. Yeah, execution can really make a somewhat banal premise very enjoyable, but sorry that isn't enough sometimes. I will never give the same credit to something like say last season's Tari Tari as I would to something like Legend of the Galactic Heroes. Or if you'd prefer a title in the genre not too far removed, take ~ef a tale of memories, which is considerably more imaginative, distinctive, and ambitious than Tari Tari in my eyes. I very much agree with the idea that not all premises are created equally in an artistic sense. In terms of enjoyment, well sure it doesn't mean anything. People might enjoy watching paint dry. But if we had a sort of anime oscars or something, I'd figure that wouldn't be a top choice .
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2012-10-21, 20:37 | Link #74 | ||
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edit: I liked last seasons Hyouka and Tari Tari for their execution. While theese 2 series have some similarities in their basic premise (both were essentially "coming of age" stories in a high school settings and it was mostly set in a club), but the way how the stories were told was very different. Last edited by hyl; 2012-10-21 at 20:58. |
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2012-10-21, 20:58 | Link #75 |
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Again, the initial assumption that LOGH deserves more credit than Tari Tari just based on the scope of their story is something I can't agree with. Both are trying to present different themes and the nuances that come with their genre and context make the titles incomparable.
It's just a matter of personal philosophy at this level. I don't put the seriousness or amount of layers of a work in a pedestal. I simply look for that in fiction that aims for that, and don't care for it on fiction that doesn't even try to reach a huge level of complexity. Another argument I hold is that proper storytelling and good audiovisual execution can generate meaning by themselves. Someone was talking earlier about Jintai's colour palette and how it tied with some ideas the show was forwarding to the audience. That's something achieved by the person(s) who designed and directed the art of the anime, and it managed to become a significant visual symbol because it took into account the sarcastic tone of the show and the setting. I don't see that as part of the "premise", "story" or whatever. It's a decision purely concerned with the storytelling, and it still gives "the story" more substance. |
2012-10-21, 21:01 | Link #76 |
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My opinion
Premises are very much needed for a story, but i don't think that it's more important than the execution. While we are still talking about hollywood, the biggest example are the remakes. They actually follow the same concept and premise, but yet people don't think they are the same due to some differences in execution. Remakes tend to do worse than the original, eventhough there are some exceptions. |
2012-10-21, 21:05 | Link #77 |
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I don't know what to say: I guess it depends on how it's done and whatever your taste is.
For example, I'm not a huge fan of ecchi/harem type stuff....the last harem anime I seriously really liked was Love Hina and that was ages ago. However, I like Sakurasou no Pet even though it's basically an R Rated version of Honey and Clover(which I love). I love mystery anime; everyone keeps telling me how great Hyouka is but I watched on episode and couldn't get even thru it. Yet, Un Go is one of my favorite series from last year and no one knows what I"m talking about... |
2012-10-21, 21:15 | Link #78 |
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At the end of the day, basically, a promise of "good execution" may be enough to help people overcome their misgivings about a show's initial premise. Perhaps sort of like "I don't usually like shows about <x>, but I have to admit this one was really well done." And even for people who do like a certain genre or concept already, "good execution" may cause an already-enjoyable show to become one that is cherished or often re-watched. Outside of this sort of internal fandom war where every show is in competition with each other ("There can be only one!"), what it really comes down to is: "Am I likely to enjoy this show?" So I think that's really what this so-called "execution effect" is all about: it can elevate a premise beyond its pre-conceived constraints.
Incidentally, as a sort of side topic, one of the risks that an anime has is having its premise misjudged based on what is shown in the early episodes. And once that perceived establishing of the premise occurs, people will be judging the execution of the show based on that perception of the premise. While there are certain objective qualities that may define shows with "good execution", so much of it is still subjective as it relates to the viewer's perception of the premise. So, shows where the premise evolves (or the central theme wasn't totally clear from the get-go) tend to provoke a lot of controversy, because they can tend to attract a lot of unmet expectations.
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2012-10-21, 21:17 | Link #79 |
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Did someone compare Tari Tari to LOGH? imo, that's comparing apples to oranges. You really can't say Inception was a better movie than, say, Hot Tub Time Machine because they're of completely different genres. If you want to compare two series you really have to compare between genres.
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2012-10-21, 21:39 | Link #80 | ||||
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And interesting you brought up Hyouka because to me that is shining example to me recently of being able to break the mold of school setting shows. Tari Tari definitely isn't IMO. And it's not just execution, it's their very premises that are different too. Hyouka set itself up to be a more methodical show with more interesting and complex characters than Tari Tari, and for that reason it manages to elevate past it. Quote:
And no you're not even understanding what I said. I never talked about scope. I am merely referring to the ability of a production to break free from myriad of extremely banal premises out there and do something creative, new, distinctive. The first thing I look for in most works is what its personal merits are that not many other shows out there have. If it has none, how could I ever really call it that great? This has nothing to do with complexity necessarily. Some of the best works in anime or art in general are fairly simplistic. Look at a film like Grave of the Fireflies which is an all time classic, the story is simple as hell but sure packs a punch. Yeah a good work by default requires strong execution. What makes a good work great though? I am saying that lies in the very essence of its story, which something like Tari Tari could never hope to achieve due to the limits it placed on itself through its premise. Quote:
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