[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[Smeckledorf]

Originally Posted by Renall

I still think the Beatrice didn't commit the murders in order to... thing is still wordplay to indicate she didn't commit any murders, and I'm thoroughly unconvinced the true culprit in any way claims to be Beatrice herself. Thus, anyone we're assuming is Beatrice just isn't likely to be the person ultimately culpable, even if her actions are responsible (by giving the killer the idea or opportunity).

I agree and disagree. I can see the red meaning that, but I would have to think Beatrice is involved in the murders involving the magic circles.

Off topic, did any of the characters Will questioned mention Battler, at all? I can't quite remember.

[Renall]

He was mentioned, but wasn't present (at the chapel anyway, he is present in a Claire scene).

[Smeckledorf]

Originally Posted by Renall

He was mentioned, but wasn't present (at the chapel anyway, he is present in a Claire scene).

Well, I know meta-world Battler was present in the chapel. Just to make sure, you mean to say that someone on the island, not a meta-world character, mentioned Battler--correct?

[estdesoda]

Originally Posted by Smeckledorf

Well, I know meta-world Battler was present in the chapel. Just to make sure, you mean to say that someone on the island, not a meta-world character, mentioned Battler--correct?

I think Leon (or it might have been Jessica) told Will that Battler is not on the island, and Will replied in some fashion like "too bad I want to see him".

So yeah, somebody mentioned Battler's name.

You suspect that Battler does not exist in Leon's world?

[Renall]

It's pretty clear he does, but it seems that his departure from the family is an independent event that happens no matter what. This could be a hint, perhaps.

[Used Can]

I think Lion falling from a cliff has nothing to do with Asumu dying. So, Battler not being there is only natural I guess.

Of course, it'd be weird if it is 1986 and Battler is not there.

Anyway, you guys probably already know, but the popularity poll for EP7 has already started.

[littlegal100]

Originally Posted by Used Can

Anyway, you guys probably already know, but the popularity poll for EP7 has already started.

Battler doesn't have much votes for him from what I see. How sad

[Used Can]

Well, the poll has barely started. Anyway, Battler has won all the polls so far. I think it'd be interesting to have someone else in 1st place for a change. That, and Battler wasn't particularly cool in EP6 (regardless the whole thing was actually planned by him or not), and in EP7 he barely even showed up.

[alviam099]

Agreed Batora-kun always 1st at polls ..,, want a new one

BTW I can't read can someone tell me who's leading ??

I can't say anything more since I never red EP7 in the first place

[Smeckledorf]

Originally Posted by estdesoda

You suspect that Battler does not exist in Leon's world?

Something like that. I still think Battler is the child from 19 years ago and not Yasu.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Renall

It's pretty clear he does, but it seems that his departure from the family is an independent event that happens no matter what. This could be a hint, perhaps.

The reason he leaves the family is because Asumu died and Rudolf remarried. This is something that happens if Leon exists or not.

However, when Leon exists Battler doesn't come to the conference. Now that's a rather strange development.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Marion

The reason he leaves the family is because Asumu died and Rudolf remarried. This is something that happens if Leon exists or not.

However, when Leon exists Battler doesn't come to the conference. Now that's a rather strange development.

Well, it's not entirely impossible to believe that there could be some correlation when you start zipping 19 years into the past to change things. At that point, Rudolf and Asumu/Kyrie having Battler seems a certainty, if the story as Kyrie relates it is true. The fact that it doesn't change with Lion existing means it probably is (if Battler were Lion, for instance, something ought to change, though we aren't so sure it hasn't).

There are really a lot of things Lion existing ought to change significantly. Jessica's personality has the potential to be completely different in such a world. She seems to act differently when grilled by Will, but not entirely so. Battler is absent again, so Lion either couldn't convince him to come back (actively or passively by merely being the heir) or agrees with his decision and wants to let him work it out (which might not be out of character). And Will is able to find cracks in the testimony generally as well. This could be due to the melding of the two worlds at the chapel, or it could be that the person constructing the Lion scenario didn't do their homework and can't answer critical questions about the differences.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Renall

There are really a lot of things Lion existing ought to change significantly. Jessica's personality has the potential to be completely different in such a world. She seems to act differently when grilled by Will, but not entirely so. Battler is absent again, so Lion either couldn't convince him to come back (actively or passively by merely being the heir) or agrees with his decision and wants to let him work it out (which might not be out of character). And Will is able to find cracks in the testimony generally as well. This could be due to the melding of the two worlds at the chapel, or it could be that the person constructing the Lion scenario didn't do their homework and can't answer critical questions about the differences.

Sorry if you guys have been through this before, but:

I did see a few differences with Lion existing. Like you said, Battler being born under strange circumstances seem to be consistent in either world, but like Will said, the difference is that without Lion, no one fetches Battler back.

That whole idea of the Epitaph Game from EP6 and prior seems to be dormant with Lion, and I guess this means that it is Yasu's doing. I wonder if Kinzo is dead then GENSAWAJO automatically recognizes Yasu as the heir by default?

Also, with Lion, it's plausible to me that Kinzo is still alive. He's less depressed, doesn't drink absinthe that much, perhaps, and can survive a handful of years more than the constantly depressed version of himself.


But yah, perhaps it's the rough patching/unknowing author that patches in the other characters (like the siblings/cousins) from the world of Yasu instead...

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Renall

Well, it's not entirely impossible to believe that there could be some correlation when you start zipping 19 years into the past to change things. At that point, Rudolf and Asumu/Kyrie having Battler seems a certainty, if the story as Kyrie relates it is true. The fact that it doesn't change with Lion existing means it probably is (if Battler were Lion, for instance, something ought to change, though we aren't so sure it hasn't).

There are really a lot of things Lion existing ought to change significantly. Jessica's personality has the potential to be completely different in such a world. She seems to act differently when grilled by Will, but not entirely so. Battler is absent again, so Lion either couldn't convince him to come back (actively or passively by merely being the heir) or agrees with his decision and wants to let him work it out (which might not be out of character). And Will is able to find cracks in the testimony generally as well. This could be due to the melding of the two worlds at the chapel, or it could be that the person constructing the Lion scenario didn't do their homework and can't answer critical questions about the differences.

Here's the issue we're missing:

Why does Lion's existence prevent Battler's return? Thats honestly critical. There's a condition to Battler's return that isn't met due to Lion's presence, rather than Yasu's.

When the entire situation is the same (from Battler's perspective), with the only real exception being Lion, then why does that matter?

Is Yasu the reason that Battler came to the conference in 1986? Does Lion being there rather than Yasu mean that Battler has no reason to return, even with Rudolph's pleading? It seems there's a lot of backstory revealed in Episode 7, but Battler never explains why he returned to Rokkenjimma in 1986. We know that Rudolph begged Battler to return when Asumu's parents died. But Battler never said he came back because of that.

There is a considerable number of hints that Battler didn't forget the promise he made to Yasu. The interaction between "Shannon"/Yasu and Battler on Rokkenjimma Prime is probably central.

If we subscribe to an author theory variant like the one that Renall proposed (which I think makes no sense if we consider the episodes complete stories themselves), then there are a number of facts which simply don't add up with regards to the information conveyed. A lot of wasted foreshadowing, and simply foggy leaps of logic. Moreover, it also completely sidelines the promise until the end of Episode 5.

I don't know. It just seems incredibly odd.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

Also, with Lion, it's plausible to me that Kinzo is still alive. He's less depressed, doesn't drink absinthe that much, perhaps, and can survive a handful of years more than the constantly depressed version of himself.

It's not just plausible. In EP 7 we see Kinzo being actively around the family at the chapel. Of course if you read through the past scenes of Yasu's life on Rokkenjima you see how Kinzo died. Considering that Lion exists that scene would never happen.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by TehChron

There is a considerable number of hints that Battler didn't forget the promise he made to Yasu. The interaction between "Shannon"/Yasu and Battler on Rokkenjimma Prime is probably central.

If the promise wasn't forgotten, why would someone writing it think that it was? I wonder if that could mean something. After all, if the belief is "forgotten promise -> everyone dies," that's shaken to the core if the premise is challenged. If it wasn't forgotten, and the incident still happened, then what was the cause?

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Renall

If the promise wasn't forgotten, why would someone writing it think that it was? I wonder if that could mean something. After all, if the belief is "forgotten promise -> everyone dies," that's shaken to the core if the premise is challenged. If it wasn't forgotten, and the incident still happened, then what was the cause?

Because Yasu was given a false impression by someone that wanted her to think that way, or something?

After all, we're given evidence that "Lion existing = Battler doesn't return", and the only thing that Lion changes from Battler's perspective is the existence of Yasu, and specifically that promise he made to her. Apparently.

Therefore, "Yasu exists -> Battler Returns -> Everyone dies".
"Lion exists -> Yasu doesn't -> Battler does not return"

The only possible influence that Yasu can have on whether or not Battler returns is the promise, as far as I know.

As far as what the real cause was, I really have no clue....Takano, maybe?

[Smeckledorf]

Originally Posted by TehChron

"Yasu exists -> Battler Returns -> Everyone dies".
"Lion exists -> Yasu doesn't -> Battler does not return"

But you are saying Yasu is the cause of the tragedy, but I am not convinced of that. Leon dies even if Battler is not on the island and no epitaph exists, which may be a hint of the tragedy happening even in that kakera. Even more perplexing would be that a reality exists where Battler is not caught up in it? I don't buy it.

Originally Posted by TehChron

There is a considerable number of hints that Battler didn't forget the promise he made to Yasu. The interaction between "Shannon"/Yasu and Battler on Rokkenjimma Prime is probably central.

Which interaction? The one where he tried to grope her? I don't know about that. the biggest evidence against this is Battler's test in episode 4. He should remember that he didn't come back to Shanon, but instead he doesn't mention it. Then there are about 3,000,000 quips Beatrice makes about broken promises and Battler still doesn't make any connections. Also, didn't Shanon repeat his quote from his promise to him in episode 1? He mentions nothing about mysteries to her ever. I just don't see him remembering, unless he wants to keep it a secret from the one other person the promise matters too?

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Smeckledorf

But you are saying Yasu is the cause of the tragedy, but I am not convinced of that. Leon dies even if Battler is not on the island and no epitaph exists, which may be a hint of the tragedy happening even in that kakera. Even more perplexing would be that a reality exists where Battler is not caught up in it? I don't buy it.

No, what Im implying is that while Battler's return to Rokkenjimma hangs on his promise with Yasu, that ultimately has nothing to do with the murders.

So how do we reconcile that with the red "Because of Battler's sin, people died"? We've just been shown evidence that the only major difference Lion's existence causes versus Yasu's is the presence of Battler on the island.

Not a crime taking place in the first place. That still happens. How does that work?

Which interaction? The one where he tried to grope her? I don't know about that. the biggest evidence against this is Battler's test in episode 4. He should remember that he didn't come back to Shanon, but instead he doesn't mention it. Then there are about 3,000,000 quips Beatrice makes about broken promises and Battler still doesn't make any connections. Also, didn't Shanon repeat his quote from his promise to him in episode 1? He mentions nothing about mysteries to her ever. I just don't see him remembering, unless he wants to keep it a secret from the one other person the promise matters too?

Episode 1 is a fiction. Thats indicated by the bottle epilogue, and the fact that it's always referred to as "the first game" from there on out in Meta-context.

If all the episodes are written by individuals who are not Battler, then it's logical for them to consider Battler forgetting the promise to be a central part of the story being told. But that's an assumption on the part of the reader/author. We still havn't seen the inside of the cat box.

And, once again, in Episode 3 once the promise itself is mentioned, we get Battler leaning back and deciding to not get in the way of George and Shannon's relationship.

One of the main themes throughout the series has been the relationship between Beatrice and Battler. Logically, it is also probably central to the mystery itself in context of the Prime Account of what happened on the Island during those two days.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Marion

It's not just plausible. In EP 7 we see Kinzo being actively around the family at the chapel. Of course if you read through the past scenes of Yasu's life on Rokkenjima you see how Kinzo died. Considering that Lion exists that scene would never happen.

At the beginning with Lion there, I was hoping that the game would show what would happen on Rokkenjima with Lion there and the whole Epitaph murders and Beatrice legends turned off. Basically anything that STILL happens with those things off would be the primary reason why people die, I thought.

I guess if the story is portraying Lion entering the events of Yasu's world then... nevermind. Sigh.

I have yet to get past Chapter 6 of 9 of Bernadus' story though... ugh... someone tell me the Tea Party is awesome so I have some Will power to get through to that...