Madoka Magica - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[kk2extreme]

So Homura is stagging up weapons for each of her time trip, she should go military viehcles (planes, tanks) next time, if that doesn't do, go for a nuke.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by orion

What if Homura prevented WN from becoming a magical girl? If there's no WN, then there's no need for Madoka to become a MG.

Walpurgis is an anomaly among Witches. First, she has no lair (that we've seen), she arrives or appears in a particular spot. Second, she's stupidly strong. This could allude to Madoka being the "end of the line" of progressively stronger and stronger MG's and Witches, the Walpurgis could have simply been the last most powerful MG turned Witch. She's clearly destructive, so that raises the question of why she isn't just roaming around constantly killing everything in her path. I was a bit bothered that the reason she exists was not explained or at least inferred, especially since Mami and Kyouko are both aware of the Walpurgis coming soon.

The other thing that bothers me is that people keep making assumptions that the only way to defeat the system is to destroy it. This is a paradox. Homura is stuck in the system and has to use the system to save Madoka. Even if she manages to save Madoka past the Walpurgis's defeat, the SYSTEM STILL REMAINS. This was the point of showing that even defeating the Witch still ends up in Homura losing Madoka.

The reason why I outlined why Homura's only way to beat the system is to discover a loophole that meets certain conditions is because this episode clearly outlined the reasons why every attempt that Homura has made to save Madoka has failed and why QB always wins in the end due to his Xanatos Gambit. Seeing people insist that merely wishing it all away is the solution is frustrating. Kyubey won't do anything to endanger his sweet setup. The only reason Homura has a chance of finding a way to a good end is because of the same single mindset that he has - Madoka is the central goal for both of their missions. His, to take Madoka's energy after she turns into a Witch. Homura's, to prevent Madoka's death or Madoka becoming a Witch.

There is no way to resolve this under the current system. Homura needs a Third Option.

[Edict]

For me, good and evil have no merit when you realize the people who support and condemn things in their name tend to be bloody hypocrites.

you are criticising them for the same justification

[Elestia]

At least until the next quota comes around, then QB is screwed. THEN SUDDENLY ENTROPY THOUSANDS OF THEM!!!!. The universe never stood a chance.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

but he meet his quota that is the important thing, getting his sale manager off his back

That one "energy quota" line by Kyubey is a bit strange.

I can't shake this image that the real bad guy of this anime is basically the alien version of George W. Bush, and Kyubey is akin to a Haliburton operative exploiting the locals in order to get the oil.

[Shinndou]

Originally Posted by Kismet-chan

The only way I can see things working out now is if:

- Homura somehow is magically able to defeat Walpurgis on her own this time (but even then, that doesn't necessarily put an end to the threat of witches like someone was earlier suggesting).

- The other MGs come back from the dead through the power of love and friendship! YEAH! (Um, no.)

- New MGs appear to help Homura (all this time I've been wondering if Homu, Saya, Kyo, and Mami were the ONLY MGs in the ENTIRE world or not).

- Homura does another reset.

I've been reflecting on the last lines Homura says at the end of the episode, saying "there's only one way"... what if ironically the only "certain" way to prevent all the events that occur would be to simply kill Madoka?

As absurd as it may sound, having tried countless times to save Madoka she might soon reach that conclusion.

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by Elestia

Yes, but good salesmen have repeat customer. And... you know.... Earth gets destroyed.... yeah....

Well not if you made a sale that allowed you to retire

Example, if i sold ovens on a commission basis, making a few thousand dollars from less than a hundred sales and some guy came came and bought 10 million for use as the standard oven for his entire country, i could then retire with 100 million in the bank.

Of course if i knew the ovens were badly made and would poison everyone in the country in 10 months, killing 10 million, why should i care? I made more than enough and i'm apparently not evil too

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

Maybe it's because of how Madoka was honest with her on how she thinks of herself as worthless and a coward?
All right, you have me here. I'm rather grasping at straws now. Well, it was a fun theory to run with.

I am also curious. I haven't figured out a good theory yet to encompass all aspects, but I did notice these inconsistencies. That is what discussion is for, isn't it?

Also, to saying QB is evil: Is Homura not doing the same thing? For the sake of Madoka, she is willing to sacrifice entire timelines of people.

For you to say that she is not "evil" means that "evil" is quantifiable in human lives. Just want to make sure you realize the gravity of your argument.

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

Well not if you made a sale that allowed you to retire

Example, if i sold ovens on a commission basis, making a few thousand dollars from less than a hundred sales and some guy came came and bought 10 million for use as the standard oven for his entire country, i could then retire with 100 million in the bank.

Of course if i knew the ovens were badly made and would poison everyone in the country in 10 months, killing 10 million, why should i care? I made more than enough and i'm apparently not evil too

Not an accurate comparison. For your comparison to work, the money you made would go to saving the lives of 100 million elsewhere. Is it that easy to compare now?

What if you had a guarantee that if you killed ten million individuals, you would save ten times that in return?

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Shinndou

I've been reflecting on the last lines Homura says at the end of the episode, saying "there's only one way"... what if ironically the only "certain" way to prevent all the events that occur would be to simply kill Madoka?

As absurd as it may sound, having tried countless times to save Madoka she might soon reach that conclusion.

Homura already killed Madoka at the end of Timeline 3 and prevented her from turning into a Witch. That was still not acceptable for her.

[kk2extreme]

Suzumiya's E8 is so much easier to break in comparison. I think this is how it would end the system taken from Inuyasha,

Spoiler for Inuyasha:

make a wish to destroy the entire system of wishing

[Leo_Otaku]

Like a few people I got Higurashi vibes >.>

I really liked the other personality of Madoka instead of the one we have now XD. I wonder how the cat has to play into everything....

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Edict

you are criticising them for the same justification

Well, no one would willingly acknowledge their acts as evil, right? The ones that do tend to either suffer an immediate BSOD or turn manically destructive.
I guess I should've phrased that differently. For me, good and evil have no merit when you realize the people supporting good and condoning evil tend to be bloody hypocrites.

[Edict]

Originally Posted by Shindou

I've been reflecting on the last lines Homura says at the end of the episode, saying "there's only one way"... what if ironically the only "certain" way to prevent all the events that occur would be to simply kill Madoka?

that will obstruct the known series of events but would not undo the processes which generate these situations. And I would generally assume Homura's objective is to save Madoka, in some form or other.

[Shinndou]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Homura already killed Madoka at the end of Timeline 3 and prevented her from turning into a Witch. That was still not acceptable for her.

I am talking about killing her before contracting, before the Walpurgis Night occurs. Though it is not acceptable, there is hardly an other clear way out unless something that can possibly alter the MG/Witch system is brought up (without looking like a deus-ex machina type of resolving).

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by kk2extreme

Suzumiya's E8 is so much easier to break in comparison. I think this is how it would end the system taken from Inuyasha,

Spoiler for Inuyasha:

make a wish to destroy the entire system of wishing

if you were QB would you grant that wish?

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by kk2extreme

Suzumiya's E8 is so much easier to break in comparison. I think this is how it would end the system taken from Inuyasha,

Spoiler for Inuyasha:

make a wish to destroy the entire system of wishing

Would not work. Kyubey would not grant it if it destroyed his Grief Seed harvest, just like he wouldn't turn Sayaka back to normal even though Madoka was willing to become a Puella Magi for it.

[Edict]

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

Well, no one would willingly acknowledge their acts as evil, right?

not everyone, but enough typically do.

For me, good and evil have no merit when you realize the people supporting good and condoning evil tend to be bloody hypocrites.

depends entirely on what you mean by "good and evil", if assuming the essential concepts they cannot be criticised as false on the basis of false justifications.

[Triple_R]

Homura's situation is pretty tricky when you think about it.


Kyubey = Can't be killed, can't get him to go away

Mami = Will completely snap if she learns the whole truth, seems to start out already a magical girl.

Madoka = Idealistic. Wants to be a magical girl (unless she sees one die first).

Sayaka = Won't believe you. Wants to be a magical girl. Has a great wish motive.

Kyoko = Starts out only caring about herself.


Homura has quite the rubik's cube to solve here. Although I do agree that she might as well try to get her hands on a nuke, and see if that'll work.


I can think of some extreme ways that might work (kidnap Madoka on Day 1, drag her out of the country, hope the other magical girls can handle Walpurgis Night on their own), but anything more straightforward is tricky.

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by taofd

What if you had a guarantee that if you killed ten million individuals, you would save ten times that in return?

Well there goes another one who believes Kyubei's "one day you'll join us in space too!", "Its to your advantage too!" speech

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by taofd

Also, to saying QB is evil: Is Homura not doing the same thing? For the sake of Madoka, she is willing to sacrifice entire timelines of people.

For you to say that she is not "evil" means that "evil" is quantifiable in human lives. Just want to make sure you realize the gravity of your argument.

I didn't say that Homura is not evil either. In fact, I don't really consider anything evil. Or anything good, for that matter. Everyone has their reasons for doing something, and it's up to you to decide whether you agree with their reason or not. Evil and good are simply terms established by a society to describe things that clash with the general consensus of said society.

Besides, the Mahou Shoujo aren't technically human either. Is it really fair to label them as good or evil when they are no longer effected by the sway of humanity?