[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[Jan-Poo]

I always thought it smelled like a red herring, but after reading Ep4 I was able to understand what he was probably going to say.

In Ep1 he says he needs to have a "family talk", he needs to say something very important, to both Kyrie and Battler.

If it was that important why waiting until when it could have been too late? Well my opinion is that Rudolf though he would have been "killed" after having the family talk, and not before. Not by some strange murderer, but by Kyrie and Battler themselves.

Kyrie is a very sensitive person and she knows Rudolf well. After Rudolf said that thing, she didn't think he was talking seriously. She thought Rudolf was just afraid to tell what he was going to tell. Rudolf is the kind of man that would make such "jokes" after all, but I guess he was trying to get Battler's and Kyrie's sympathy before dropping the bomb.

And the bomb he was going to drop is: "Hey Battler, guess what? You are not Asumu's son!"

I guess you can well imagine the reaction. Also if you consider that Kyrie still thinks that Rudolf chose Asumu because she had a child, you can imagine why she would also be pretty pissed at him. It means that he used Battler as an excuse. He chose Asumu, period.
There is also the possibility that Battler is Rudolf's son, which means Rudolf impregnated a third woman. Who wouldn't kill him then?
And if Battler was Kyrie's son, then Kyrie would have even more reasons to rage. Because she definitely doesn't know. How would you react if they told you that your stillborn child was actually alive and was raised by your rival in love?

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I always thought it smelled like a red herring, but after reading Ep4 I was able to understand what he was probably going to say.

In Ep1 he says he needs to have a "family talk", he needs to say something very important, to both Kyrie and Battler.

If it was that important why waiting until when it could have been too late? Well my opinion is that Rudolf though he would have been "killed" after having the family talk, and not before. Not by some strange murderer, but by Kyrie and Battler themselves.

Kyrie is a very sensitive person and she knows Rudolf well. After Rudolf said that thing, she didn't think he was talking seriously. She thought Rudolf was just afraid to tell what he was going to tell. Rudolf is the kind of man that would make such "jokes" after all, but I guess he was trying to get Battler's and Kyrie's sympathy before dropping the bomb.

And the bomb he was going to drop is: "Hey Battler, guess what? You are not Asumu's son!"

I also think he was going to tell Battler that he was not Asumu's son. I understand that you say Rudolf had predicted what kind of reaction Kyrie and Battler would have if he told the truth, so he said he was going to be "killed" by Battler and Kyrie that night. It makes sense, except that why he needed to say this at that time. He has been hiding this from Battler and Kyrie for many years, so why not posponing saying this?

Normal people, if having been keeping a great secret from someone, would want to say this to that person if they think they don't have a chance to tell the truth. He was probably aware of something might happen to him around that time, so he was anxious to expose the secret to Battler. He thought he still have time after the talk, but no, he died that night. So Battler never knew it in EP1. But what about Kyrie? This was the interesting point.

[Jan-Poo]

That's the thing that bugs me, why he suddenly needs to tell them? I can only imagine there is a connection with the letter and Beatrice. At least in Ep1 he suddenly said he needed to talk right after Maria read that letter.

About Kyrie, who knows... we know that she tried to make Rudolf talk after he said that thing about being killed, however Battler wasn't there to witness how it ended.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

About Kyrie, who knows... we know that she tried to make Rudolf talk after he said that thing about being killed, however Battler wasn't there to witness how it ended.

I think Kyrie knew it in EP4, but not so from Ep1-3. That's why she said Battler has commited a sin in EP4. (Battler's sin: by forgoing the Ushiromiya surname and leaving the family, he destoryed the Rudolf's plan. Rudolf has exchanged Kyrie's baby with Asumu's so that Kyrie's son can inherit the Ushiromiya fortune. Rudolf never loved Asumu, but used the engagement to let Kyrie's son to bear Ushiromiya's name. And after Asumu's death, he immediately married Kyrie, and hoping the family can reunion from now on. Rudolf planned to disclose the truth at that time. But who knew Battler would abandon his name and leave the family. Kyrie still believed that Battler was Asumu's son until 4 th Oct, 1986. She planned to avenge on the whole Ushiromiya's family. She left her daughter outside the island (possibly making her sick). She planned all the killings. But after she executed most of the plan, she suddenly found that Battler was her own son. If Battler has not left the family, these all would not happen. Thus Battler has commited the sin six years ago, and led to the death of all people on Ushiromiya in EP4.

I finally have come up with a theory on what Battler's sin was. Yeah!

[Jan-Poo]

wait that doesn't make sense. If Rudolf really wanted that, why he didn't marry Kyrie in the first place? What good could he gain by marrying Asumu?
The fastest and more logical way to ensure Kyrie's son would become an Ushiromiya... was marrying Kyrie, no?

If you assume Kyrie's son wasn't a stillborn nor a miscarriage then the pregnancy excuse doesn't work anymore because both of them were in the same position and Rudolf could choose Kyrie in place of Asumu. It is quite clear by what Kyrie said in Ep3 that Rudolf and Asumu weren't married yet when both her and Kyrie got pregnant.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

wait that doesn't make sense. If Rudolf really wanted that, why he didn't marry Kyrie in the first place? What good could he gain by marrying Asumu?
The fastest and more logical way to ensure Kyrie's son would become an Ushiromiya... was marrying Kyrie, no?

If you assume Kyrie's son wasn't a stillborn nor a miscarriage then the pregnancy excuse doesn't work anymore because both of them were in the same position and Rudolf could choose Kyrie in place of Asumu. It is quite clear by what Kyrie said in Ep3 that Rudolf and Asumu weren't married yet when both her and Kyrie got pregnant.

In EP3, when the children were born, Rudolf and Asumu were already engaged, as told by Kyrie. I have just checked it. And I don't think Rudolf would break the engagement with Asumu to go marry Kyrie just after Asumu's son disceased, even though Battler thought his father as jackass.

I believe Kinzo has probably agreed Rudolf and Asumu's marriage than Kyrie. Though we don't know the background of Asumu's family.

[Vega Lyra]

Sorry to butt in XD

I am going through the EP4 tea party...and when Beatrice said in red; No matter what the disguise, they would not mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo! , I immediately remembered Rosa saying to the rest of the siblings that Maria said that she received an umbrella from Kinzo (EP 4). Did Maria say that she received an umbrella from Kinzo to the cousins, by any chance?

Now, we know that Kinzo is dead at the start of each of the games. It's curious...

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Vega Lyra

Sorry to butt in XD

I am going through the EP4 tea party...and when Beatrice said in red; No matter what the disguise, they would not mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo! , I immediately remembered Rosa saying to the rest of the siblings that Maria said that she received an umbrella from Kinzo (EP 4). Did Maria say that she received an umbrella from Kinzo to the cousins, by any chance?

Now, we know that Kinzo is dead at the start of each of the games. It's curious...

I have checked it previously. Not once. That was likely just Rosa's claim, if anyone asked Maria, she would probably say she received the umbrella from Beatrice, (or from Rosa).

[rogerpepitone]

@ijriims: Whatever Battler's sin is, it isn't related to his dropping the Ushiromiya name.

After Battler finishes describing how he was overreacting by cutting himself off from the family, Beatrice says:

"............That's not it. I have no interest in matters concerning your immediate family or your home. Where are we? Rokkenjima. The main residence of the Ushiromiya head family. ......Isn't there a sin you should remember, fitting for this place......?

[Chadauw]

Originally Posted by Vega Lyra

Sorry to butt in XD

I am going through the EP4 tea party...and when Beatrice said in red; No matter what the disguise, they would not mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo! , I immediately remembered Rosa saying to the rest of the siblings that Maria said that she received an umbrella from Kinzo (EP 4). Did Maria say that she received an umbrella from Kinzo to the cousins, by any chance?

Now, we know that Kinzo is dead at the start of each of the games. It's curious...

I though this red truth only applies to those who were in the room when Goldsmith appeared and killed people with bunnies.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by ijriims

In EP3, when the children were born, Rudolf and Asumu were already engaged, as told by Kyrie. I have just checked it. And I don't think Rudolf would break the engagement with Asumu to go marry Kyrie just after Asumu's son disceased, even though Battler thought his father as jackass.

I believe Kinzo has probably agreed Rudolf and Asumu's marriage than Kyrie. Though we don't know the background of Asumu's family.

Exactly they were engaged not married.
The question then is, why Rudolf was engaged with Asumu if he actually wanted to marry Kyrie? You get the picture by this that the pregnancy has absolutely nothing to do with this. Both Kyrie and Asumu were pregnant at the same time. And as you said Rudolf was already engaged to Asumu before Kyrie miscarried or had a stillborn (or when that lie was constructed) The story that Rudolf chose Asumu because she was pregnant is just Kyrie's delusion.

Now then the question is why Rudolf engaged Asumu. I don't think it was Kinzo who told him to do so. At any rate it seems a very weak reason.

And then again I think you all have been fooled by Kyrie's perspective. Rudolf was dating both girls, he impregnated both of them, he was a philanderer, there wasn't anyone pointing a gun at him and compelling him to do so. To me this is just the classic triangle situation. Even if someone forced Rudolf to marry Asumu for whatever reason there was nothing that could force Rudolf to have sex with her before marriage. He hasn't been raped.

My conclusion is that Rudolf loved them both, and he chose Asumu. Of course nothing prevented Rudolf from meeting Kyrie in the meantime. When Asumu died then he married Kirye. But no matter how you look at it, Kyrie looks like a second choice to me.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

@ijriims: Whatever Battler's sin is, it isn't related to his dropping the Ushiromiya name.

After Battler finishes describing how he was overreacting by cutting himself off from the family, Beatrice says:

"............That's not it. I have no interest in matters concerning your immediate family or your home. Where are we? Rokkenjima. The main residence of the Ushiromiya head family. ......Isn't there a sin you should remember, fitting for this place......?

The complete passage is (translated by myself, I do not read Witchhunt's version):

Beatrice: ...I am Ushiromiya family counselor alchemist. Golden witch, as well as infinite witch. Beatrice.... I will judge on you, whether you deserve the title of head of Ushiromiya family and the succession of my gold... Give me your name.

Battler: Battler, Ushiromiya.

Beatrice: Good. Battler Ushiromiya... Still, you had forsaken the surname of Ushiromiya for six years. Why?

Battler:...Because I had been completely disappointed by my father.

Beatrice: I see. You felt that the remarriage of father was a disrepect for your beloved mother. And your step-mother has no blood linkage with you. I can understand your reluctance to accept the step-mother. Still, whoever your father has married again, you and your father's blood linkage cannot be changed, can it?

Battler: What do you want to say?

Beatrice: Regarding your immature desire to make your father your own and the subsequent rejection of the remarriage, I can understand. However, wasn't the abandonment of Ushiromiya's name due to this kind of reason, already a disgrace to the Ushiromiya family and your bloodline? You were born in Ushiromiya family, raised by it. Do you have the right to disregard this debt of gratitude, to abandon Ushiromiya's name?

Battler: It has nothing to deal with you. It was only the problem between me and my father.

Beatrice: Ushiromiya's name does not belong to you and your father only. To abandon the name because you could not tolerate some woman taking your father was merely an immature act... Your abandonment of the surname Ushiromiya for six years was a long time of disgrace to Ushiromiya family. You have to realize the depth of this sin.

Battler:..... I was immature. Sorry for that....

Beatrice: Nevertheless. Although it was just because of the death of your grandparents, you still have taken back the surname of Ushiromiya. Therefore, I now give you a chance to redeem the sin. This is the moment for you to confess for the sin you have made six years ago. Come. Think about it. Think about the sin you have commited, confess and repent..... This is the test I give you.

.......(after Battler retold his feeling of Rudolf's remarriage)

Beatrice: ......................................just these?

Battler: What?........? What do you mean by just these? I have already told you everything. Isn't that enough?

Beatrice: The repentence is not enough.

Battler: Repentence?....What's up? You want me to kneel on my feet just like my father?

Beatrice: Wrong. I have no interest in your family's matter. Where is this place? Rokkenjima it is. The home of Ushiromiya family...... Shouldn't you realized your sin, which is comparable to this place?

--------------------------------

I must say Battler's sin was definitely related to his dropping of Ushiromiya's name, maybe not due to exactly what I have described (maybe it concerned not only Rudolf, but also other family members, as you have listed the biggest rebuke to my theory), Battler's sin must be related to Ushiromiya's family as a whole, not just some particular family members.

I am re-adjusting my theory. Any idea on how Battler somehow made the whole family suffer?

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

My conclusion is that Rudolf loved them both, and he chose Asumu. Of course nothing prevented Rudolf from meeting Kyrie in the meantime. When Asumu died then he married Kirye. But no matter how you look at it, Kyrie looks like a second choice to me.

In this case, you should be thinking that Battler was not Kyrie's son or my theory would be mostly correct. Then who was Battler's mother in your opinion?

[Marion]

Honestly people say "Oh well Kyrie being Battler's mom is too obvious and anticlimactic" but really, what other choices are there?

1) Asumu - can't be due to red
2) Kyrie
or
3) Mysterious 3rd woman that Rudolf was sleeping with at the same time he was sleeping with the other two women.

And I mean that's getting a little out of hand

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Exactly they were engaged not married.
The question then is, why Rudolf was engaged with Asumu if he actually wanted to marry Kyrie? You get the picture by this that the pregnancy has absolutely nothing to do with this. Both Kyrie and Asumu were pregnant at the same time. And as you said Rudolf was already engaged to Asumu before Kyrie miscarried or had a stillborn (or when that lie was constructed) The story that Rudolf chose Asumu because she was pregnant is just Kyrie's delusion.

Now then the question is why Rudolf engaged Asumu. I don't think it was Kinzo who told him to do so. At any rate it seems a very weak reason.

And then again I think you all have been fooled by Kyrie's perspective. Rudolf was dating both girls, he impregnated both of them, he was a philanderer, there wasn't anyone pointing a gun at him and compelling him to do so. To me this is just the classic triangle situation. Even if someone forced Rudolf to marry Asumu for whatever reason there was nothing that could force Rudolf to have sex with her before marriage. He hasn't been raped.

My conclusion is that Rudolf loved them both, and he chose Asumu. Of course nothing prevented Rudolf from meeting Kyrie in the meantime. When Asumu died then he married Kirye. But no matter how you look at it, Kyrie looks like a second choice to me.

But why would he marry Asumu but have an affair with Kyrie at the same time, and you're still calling it 'second choice'.

I think he loved Asumu, but more in a friendly way (like you love someone but it isn't romantic) and he loved Kyrie in a romantic way. Asumu gives birth and Kyrie doesn't give birth. If he didn't marry Asumu then there would be troubles. For starters, let's forget about force.

What about Battler? He's not just going to leave his son without a father figure and Asumu isn't very rich either so she can't support Battler alone. It's not that he marries Asumu out of love or out of force (as Kyrie implies) but rather he does it to take care of his son and give Battler a family. That's why he has an affair with Kyrie in the mean time - because he has romantic feelings for her and doesn't want to leave her straggling.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Marion

Honestly people say "Oh well Kyrie being Battler's mom is too obvious and anticlimactic" but really, what other choices are there?

1) Asumu - can't be due to red
2) Kyrie
or
3) Mysterious 3rd woman that Rudolf was sleeping with at the same time he was sleeping with the other two women.

And I mean that's getting a little out of hand

There are still Natsuhi, cliff-falling Beatrice (please refer to my passage about in vitro fertilization in previous page), or whoever women who are capable of reproducing in 1968 (including Eva, Rosa, Kumasawa(!), Kasumi Sumadera, etc), as long as we see this women from EP1-Ep4.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by ijriims

There are still Natsuhi, cliff-falling Beatrice (please refer to my passage about in vitro fertilization in previous page), or whoever women who are capable of reproducing in 1968 (including Eva, Rosa, Kumasawa(!), Kasumi Sumadera, etc), as long as we see this women from EP1-Ep4.

Natsuhi has Krauss and she has enough troubles getting pregnant. Let's not put her in the mix.
Cliff falling Beatrice...meh I don't like that theory it sounds too far-fetched.
Eva, Rosa, Kumasawa...c'mon, two are his sisters and one is a maid. Rudolf is a pimp but I don't think he would stoop to incest and people who work for his family.
Kasumi is also very far-fetched as well.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Marion

Natsuhi has Krauss and she has enough troubles getting pregnant. Let's not put her in the mix.
Cliff falling Beatrice...meh I don't like that theory it sounds too far-fetched.
Eva, Rosa, Kumasawa...c'mon, two are his sisters and one is a maid. Rudolf is a pimp but I don't think he would stoop to incest and people who work for his family.
Kasumi is also very far-fetched as well.

That's why I always think Kyrie was Battler's mother. Natsuhi...someone did made a case about her, and this someone was important.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Marion

Honestly people say "Oh well Kyrie being Battler's mom is too obvious and anticlimactic" but really, what other choices are there?

1) Asumu - can't be due to red
2) Kyrie
or
3) Mysterious 3rd woman that Rudolf was sleeping with at the same time he was sleeping with the other two women.

And I mean that's getting a little out of hand

You know if it wasn't for the anime messing up with definitions, Battler being Kyrie's son was pretty much ruled out as impossible. Ask Klashikari, he's been telling that a hundred of times.

To think that Battler is Kyrie's son you'd need to think that the Novel was wrong and the anime is right. Kyrie is not the kind of person that would make such a mistake.

Anyway it looks like you don't like the idea that Battler is an hypotethical son of the Beatrice who died 1967, but in my case I don't like the idea that Battler is Kyrie's son.

There is also the possibility that Battler isn't Rudolf's son either.

Originally Posted by Marion

But why would he marry Asumu but have an affair with Kyrie at the same time, and you're still calling it 'second choice'.

That's sadly pretty common. A man likes two women, can't make up his mind, he marries one and make the other his mistress. This way he can still have both. Maybe It isn't necessary that the favorite becomes the wife, but the one that becomes the wife is probably the one that is seen as better fit for that role.

Now Kyrie is a very rational person, but seeing as how she narrated the story of Asumu and Rudolf, it looks like her rationality fails when it comes to love. A smart woman would have kicked Rudolf in the balls and moved to someone more deserving. Instead she have been waiting him for six years brooding and envying Asumu. She even justifies Rudolf's actions even though he's a known philanderer.
And then when Asumu dies Rudolf goes to her and say: "All right now I can marry you!" Excuse me? What about divorce? It was really necessary for Asumu to die for Rudolf to marry Kyrie.

Originally Posted by Marion

What about Battler? He's not just going to leave his son without a father figure and Asumu isn't very rich either so she can't support Battler alone. It's not that he marries Asumu out of love or out of force (as Kyrie implies) but rather he does it to take care of his son and give Battler a family. That's why he has an affair with Kyrie in the mean time - because he has romantic feelings for her and doesn't want to leave her straggling.

Aren't you saying that Battler is Kyrie's son? If that was the case Rudolf should have left Asumu when Battler was still a kid and then there was no reason for him to be in Asumu's care at all.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

You know if it wasn't for the anime messing up with definitions, Battler being Kyrie's son was pretty much ruled out as impossible. Ask Klashikari, he's been telling that a hundred of times.

To think that Battler is Kyrie's son you'd need to think that the Novel was wrong and the anime is right. Kyrie is not the kind of person that would make such a mistake.

I haven't watched the anime so I don't know what you mean by anime is right and novel was wrong.......

Who is Klashikari? What mistakes are you talking about?

Anyway, to make cliff-falling Beatrice as Battler's mother entails Battler was born before that Beatrice fell from the cliff. Or there was just what I have mentioned, in vitro fertilization taking place. Both cases can make Battler as Kinzo's grandson if the cliff-falling Beatrice was secret-lover Beatrice (Beatrice in 1953) and Kinzo's daughter.

INCEST is that popular in Japan? I don't know. Or you could say Rudolf or one of Kinzo's son raped and impregnated the cliff-falling Beatrice to make Battler Kinzo's grandson... (When did Umineko become so disgusting?)