Fate/Zero - Episode 23 Discussion / Poll

[Kaiba]

Welp I have to hand it to ufoTABLE, they tried their absolute best to make a lame, ridiculously overpowered and trivializing character like Gilgamesh and his battle with Rider interesting and to make both look gar, but the fact still stands that Gilgamesh is just about the worst thing about this otherwise wrinkled, ponderous and complex franchise. He's not interesting or complex to any degree (especially compared to his master), and it just makes everything else that happens feel so utterly pointless when despite all the other heroic, fascinating and oft depressing stories we have this lame one note character whose whole schtick is "I was first king therefore win!". Hell he didn't even have to move against one of the more powerful characters we've seen in this prequel so far and to me that's just a bit of a joke.

To me he diminishes the whole idea of the Holy Grail War and all it's behind the scenes machinations, strategy sessions and backstabbings to the complexity of a poker match every time he gets involved in the story. Should you happen to draw Gilgamesh it's like just happening to luck into a royal flush, you're opponent can still try to bluff you, they can try to outwit you a bit and throw you off what they have in their hand, but the only question left to be answered when all the cards come down on the table is how much you stand to win. Tokiomi even admits as much in the first season when during the summoning he proclaims nonchantly that they've won the grail war.

And Tokiomi sure ended up in a great situation and breezed through the war thanks to his Gilgamesh summon.

Gilgamesh is by far the most powerful Heroic Spirit because he's the oldest, and that's well, how Nasu magic works. But he's by far the most difficult heroic spirit to control because of his power.

Not to mention just because he's one of the most powerful characters doesn't mean he can't be complex. I find Gilgamesh heck of a lot more interesting than Saber, for example.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

And Tokiomi sure ended up in a great situation and breezed through the war thanks to his Gilgamesh summon.

Gilgamesh is by far the most powerful Heroic Spirit because he's the oldest, and that's well, how Nasu magic works. But he's by far the most difficult heroic spirit to control because of his power.

Not to mention just because he's one of the most powerful characters doesn't mean he can't be complex. I find Gilgamesh heck of a lot more interesting than Saber, for example.

I find Saber interesting because there's plenty of room for growth in her character and for the conflicts that she has to go through, which I don't really see for Gilgamesh since he's already at the pinnacle the moment he's introduced and there's not real conflict or emotion in any of his scenes. About the most interesting thing I can say for him is that he seems to have some respect for Rider following their battle, although I'm not sure why since the battle was a total farce and easy win. I guess it's the fact that they have similar ambitions, but Rider is far from a worthy rival for Gilgamesh so I don't get it.

However, that is a good point about Kotomine and actually managing to control Gilgamesh (again I distinguish a lot between the one note character that is Gilgamesh and the complex one that wields him), but I still find Gilgamesh himself incredibly lame for the afformentioned reasons foremost among which is that the narrative, stakes and results of the grail war always feels weaker, lamer and more simplistic with him involved than I feel it would be without.

[Polarpew]

I shed a lot of tears this episode, the most moving episode yet in terms of the atmosphere, music, and setting. Props to UFOtable for executing such a wonderful scene from the novels.

[Polarpew]

Also the countless webs we see when Gil uses the key to the Gate of Babylon to unleash Ea shows as the threads that originated from the key into the sky symbolizes the countless possibilities and depicts the creation of the world. Then you see it all surge back to they key which symbolizes that all the possibilities of the world originated from the source, as you can see Ea coming out. This means that Ea is the source and beginning of everything, hence the Sword of Rupture. The attack is Enuma Elish: The Star of Creation that Split Heaven and Earth. There's an Anti-World NP for ya

[Klashikari]

Yeh, the "grid" itself looks like the vast amount of possibilities, that converge to a single and confonded "truth": destruction, which matches quite well the nature of Ea.

[Methuselah]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Gil's respect went even farther than that:
-The drink before the fight
-Not "punishing" Iskandar on the spot for his suggestion
-"hinting" some comparison with Enkidu, his only true friend (implying Iskandar could potentially be his friend if it wasn't for Enkidu)
-Deployment of Ea
-Unleashing that many NP (despite he wouldn't even do that for such threat like Caster monster, and did that against Berserker out of wrath or enjoyment)
-Deployment of Enkidu (his most precious NP, even more than Ea), and the death blow with Ea, his greatest weapon.
-kept calling him "征服王" (King of Conquest) to the very end, with a very subtle "そなた" (for "you") instead of something more rude like "お前" ("omae", used at the start of battle) or "貴様" ("kisama").

Factoring as well his promise about the world etc, you can guess Iskandar is probably one of the only few that Gil ever considered as "worthy".

-Do not forget that during Alexander's death, Gilgamesh told him that "he is a king and his garden is beautiful till the end of time. You'll never get bored."

Gilgamesh accepted him with fullest respect and is willing to metaphorically say that he'll share his pocessions with him to delight his dreams of conquest. This means ALOT given to how Gilgamesh always loves for people to "entertain him," but now he clearly wants to gift Alexander.

[serenade_beta]

The whole Gil and Rider thing was pretty moving, but it is unfortunate that Rider couldn't even do a bit of damage to Gil and his HentaiRoy thing's soldiers all died like the grunts of grunts.

[Phoenix6000]

Best episode to date and that's saying a lot for such a superb series. It took a while, but the build up was well worth the wait. You can feel Saber's angst as she's now forced to confront the embodiment of her failed kingship. Berserker's big reveal made me cheer. =D

And despite Waver's clingyness, Gil vs. Rider was equally as spectacular to watch. 5/5

[Kaiba]

About the most interesting thing I can say for him is that he seems to have some respect for Rider following their battle, although I'm not sure why since the battle was a total farce and easy win. I guess it's the fact that they have similar ambitions, but Rider is far from a worthy rival for Gilgamesh so I don't get it.

Episode 12. Gilgamesh states that he respects people whose pride means that they'll pretty much attempt the impossible. And Rider IS a king. If you're just going to determine rivals by "whose power level is closest to me", then Gilgamesh will never have a rival. But as a proud figure who has the will to challenge Gilgamesh, Rider is a worthy adversary.

However, that is a good point about Kotomine and actually managing to control Gilgamesh (again I distinguish a lot between the one note character that is Gilgamesh and the complex one that wields him), but I still find Gilgamesh himself incredibly lame for the afformentioned reasons foremost among which is that the narrative, stakes and results of the grail war always feels weaker, lamer and more simplistic with him involved than I feel it would be without.

Except I don't see it, because having Gilgamesh is not an "I win" card like you seem to think it was. Otherwise, Gilgamesh would have won in all three FSN routes, and Tokiomi would still be alive. Heck, if Tokiomi had summoned a mediocre but loyal servant like Diarmuid, he would have lasted longer than he actually did.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Phoenix6000

Best episode to date and that's saying a lot for such a superb series. It took a while, but the build up was well worth the wait. You can feel Saber's angst as she's now forced to confront the embodiment of her failed kingship.

And despite Waver's clingyness, Gil vs. Rider was equally as spectacular to watch. 5/5



I needed a good laugh. Kudos.

Like Gilgamesh you trivialize my post, but that's okay, like I don't expect to understand why people find this character anything other than a pox on a show with otherwise fascinating character, I don't expect them to understand why I feel just that way. Also I know we're in a type/moon thread so I fully expect all the hostilities that an opinion such as mine could beget.

I'm just glad that unlike the Fate/Stay Night adaptation I don't feel that Gilgamesh's being on the scene has totally destroyed my enjoyment of the show, because it did exactly that there. Rather as I continue to mention I greatly look forward to next week. We'll all be on a similar page again soon enough I'm sure.

Originally Posted by Kaiba

Episode 12. Gilgamesh states that he respects people whose pride means that they'll pretty much attempt the impossible. And Rider IS a king. If you're just going to determine rivals by "whose power level is closest to me", then Gilgamesh will never have a rival. But as a proud figure who has the will to challenge Gilgamesh, Rider is a worthy adversary.

I guess the character sees it that way, but frankly I don't. Though when you're as broken a character as Gilgamesh is I suppose you have to lower your expectations and seek challenge somewhere. Again just another way in which Gilgamesh elements trivialize the achievements and desires of other characters. I see what they're trying to do with Gilgamesh here and it's why I still say that Fate/Zero has handled this character better than Fate/Stay Night ever did, but frankly I still get nothing from it because it all rings hollow in the end for obvious reasons.

Except I don't see it, because having Gilgamesh is not an "I win" card like you seem to think it was. Otherwise, Gilgamesh would have won in all three FSN routes, and Tokiomi would still be alive. Heck, if Tokiomi had summoned a mediocre but loyal servant like Diarmuid, he would have lasted longer than he actually did.

I've seen the entirety of one Fate/Stay Night route and that is the one from the TV show. No I've never played the game and for all I know he could be that much better a character in it, I'm just going based on what I have to go on and that is the anime. Anime Gilgamesh is a lame character to me that trivializes the others by proximity, as for the game one...I'll just have to take peoples word for it.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

-kept calling him "征服王" (King of Conquest) to the very end, with a very subtle "そなた" (for "you") instead of something more rude like "お前" ("omae", used at the start of battle) or "貴様" ("kisama").

Omae isn't exactly very rude. Kisama is rude, though, but Sonata is more polite.

[Klashikari]

Plainly speaking, お前 isn't something you would use, considering it basically similar to "hey you, in front of me". From a perspective of anime etc, it is "casual", but in reality, you would definitely not use that. While it isn't inherently offensive, it -is- rude in a general sense (save people knowing each other at times), but in the context of FZ, it is more or less trivial considering every single one of them.
そなた keeps a certain "higher position" for the speaker towards who they are talking to so you can't exactly say it is polite (hence why it is a "subtle" difference), although the person is at least addressed, unlike being "just there" with お前.
Meanwhile, 貴様 is downright insulting so.

[Kirarakim]

I am actually not a big fan of Gilgamesh either. Arrogant all poweful characters aren't really my thing. That being said he is voiced by Seki Tomokazu who has been one of my favorite seiyuu since forever so I do enjoy his performance of Gilgamesh very much.


As for the end of Rider...I knew it was coming and yes I cried my eyes out during his final scenes with Waver. Personally I am satisfied. I highly doubt any of the characters will have as good of an end as Waver & Rider. Waver actually gained something positive from his grail experience. Rider inspired him and made him into a better person. Although Waver called Rider his King, I think he is more than that I think he was his friend. Okay crying again.

As for the Berserker reveal, it was a good one that I feel I should have seen coming. But I hope they explain more in depth why he became like that, because right now he is my least favorite rendition of Lancelot. And the Arthurian legend has always been one of my favorites.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

As for the Berserker reveal, it was a good one that I feel I should have seen coming. But I hope they explain more in depth why he became like that, because right now he is my least favorite rendition of Lancelot. And the Arthurian legend has always been one of my favorites.

the answer is kinda obvious.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

the answer is kinda obvious.

Well maybe I am dumb because it is not obvious to me.

Based on the original story I would think it would be Arthur who might have went Berserk.

Although Fate Zero's rendition of Arthur is a bit loose from the original & not just because Arthur is a woman.

Edit: Spoiled myself...I guess that explanation works.

[wandering-dreamer]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Also, I definitely nod at their decision to displace Gil's comment about Enkindu before (which made some people worried, not without right reason), as it suits the timing much better here. Particularly satisfied they manage to keep the core of Gil and Iskandar dynamics, and again this episode really gives much more subtle details and points for Gil, compared to other format.

From what I've read, Enkindu is the name of the chains Gil used right? But I feel like I've seen Enkidu as a Servant before, or am I confusing that with Fate/Strange Fake?

Anyway, I actually found the Rider/Archer fight a bit underwhelming and sadly I was spoiled on Berserker months ago so the reveal wasn't quite a dramatic for me. Oh well, can't wait for the final episodes!

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by wandering-dreamer

From what I've read, Enkindu is the name of the chains Gil used right? But I feel like I've seen Enkidu as a Servant before, or am I confusing that with Fate/Strange Fake?

Anyway, I actually found the Rider/Archer fight a bit underwhelming and sadly I was spoiled on Berserker months ago so the reveal wasn't quite a dramatic for me. Oh well, can't wait for the final episodes!

In the actual Babylonian myth, Enkidu is Gilgamesh's best and only friend. The chains are also named Enkidu, and he is a servant in Fate/Strange Fake.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by wandering-dreamer

From what I've read, Enkindu is the name of the chains Gil used right? But I feel like I've seen Enkidu as a Servant before, or am I confusing that with Fate/Strange Fake?

Anyway, I actually found the Rider/Archer fight a bit underwhelming and sadly I was spoiled on Berserker months ago so the reveal wasn't quite a dramatic for me. Oh well, can't wait for the final episodes!

Originally Posted by Kaiba

In the actual Babylonian myth, Enkidu is Gilgamesh's best and only friend. The chains are also named Enkidu, and he is a servant in Fate/Strange Fake.

the Chain is also call the Chain of Heaven, it is a Anti-God Weapon. The more divinity the opponent has the stronger the Chain. It was used by Gil and Enkidu to bind the Bull of Heaven.

[zRyuu]

Rider: divinity C :l.

[Awrya]

I just lol'd when Waver followed Rider's war cry
Kind of sad how Rider decided to save Ionioi Hetairoi for Gilgamesh, which was blown away while charging. But Gilgamesh did have a change of heart, he acknowledged Rider and Waver's resolve .

How did Berserker get firearms in Japan? provided by Zoken or stolen from somewhere?