Shakugan no Shana II - Episode 4 Discussion / Poll

[IMSabbel]

Watched the episode.
Waste of time.
Nothing at all happend.
They could have made an 5 second insert "shana is jealous", which would have served the identical purpose.

Special notes:

-there is moe, and there is outright retardation (which isnt moe at all). Braindead girls to stupid to walk fall in the second category.
-another shounen hero who NEVER watched TV or read manga (otherwise he would realize shana is jealous, because whats happening is one of the cheapest soap plots).

[Guido]

Analyzing deeply the episode I sincerely believe for myself that it has been misjudged and underrated. Well, that's for my part, since in no way I'm trying to impose my view upon anybody else.

The episode itself was an exploration upon the inner turmoil that Shana has been feeling, as well as Kazumi growing jealousy over Yuuji.

On the previous season we got to see how Shana snapped upon Yuuji when she demanded him to forget about Kazumi on the night that Bal Masqué attacked at the festival.

The difference IMO from back then with the current circumstance concerned that with Kazumi she and Yuuji met for a long time, so I can consider that by the end of the first season she and Shana became friendly love rivals for Yuuji's affection.

But the harmony established back then has been disrupted with Konoe's arrival. She's a complete stranger who innately and instinctively took a liking and literally clinging towards Yuuji.

Yuuji's a boy so he can't help it to be careless about figuring out by himself that his recent inclination to worry and have sympathy for Konoe is provoking anxiety and jealousy on both Shana and Kazumi.

It feels terrible for those two, and with Konoe actively clinging more and more it dawns closer and closer upon me that she's Hecate after all.

Spoiler:

If you ask me the most climatic scene happened at the park when Kazumi witnessed how close Yuuji and Konoe were close to each other, as if she could perceive a powerful chemistry revolving around those two.

[4as]

Originally Posted by holyman282

The name Hecate derives from the goddess of wilderness and child birth.. I really don't see how she so deserves her name, are you implying that Hecate sounds a bit like hate?

I was think about Hecate from Macbeth.
She was a witch striving to doom the Macbeth.

[Mentar]

I had no complaints about this ep. "Melancholy Girls" - that's what they depicted, and they did it fairly well. So what's all the bitching about?

That Yuji doesn't get that Shana is jealous, even though he clearly picks up that she's angry? Keep in mind here that for Yuji, Shana is still a Flame Haze and not really all that human. Except for the "Yuji ga suki", which they killed in ep1, Shana has been consistently in all-tsun mode with him in interpersonal matters. He should indeed pick up that Konoe is the reason for her irritation (and I think he did), and it's indeed a bit out of character for him not to follow up on it - but not so much that I'd call it a "plot hole" or anything.

Well, seeing the favorite characters gradually crumble and fall apart isn't everybody's favorite pastime, so I guess some negative ratings were to be expected. A solid 8 from me, for good gradual storytelling.

[Kiyoru]

Aw noes, I still haven't seen this episode ;___;

[outcast_within]

i said it at ep 3 and i'll see it for this ep
this show is pretty good for a harem show

[tabun]

Originally Posted by Kiyoru

Aw noes, I still haven't seen this episode ;___;

Would it then not be unwise to come into this episode's discussion thread?

[Davidj]

Originally Posted by serenade_beta

Eh? She's in high school.

Yup. Pretty impressive for someone who I figure came into existence out of the humanity that Hecate took from Yuji.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Davidj

Yup. Pretty impressive for someone who I figure came into existence out of the humanity that Hecate took from Yuji.

lets not jump ahead of ourselves here.

Konoe could be all sorts of things. But until the anime actually states who and what she is, those are all mere hypotheticals.

[stormy001_M1A2]

I guess this episode discussion shows how impatient most general viewing public is. They all want non stop panty showing action and less "blabber".

I prefer the reason to be build up before the conflict was shown. No cause, no effect.

[Guido]

Originally Posted by stormy001_M1A2

I guess this episode discussion shows how impatient most general viewing public is. They all want non stop panty showing action and less "blabber".

I prefer the reason to be build up before the conflict was shown. No cause, no effect.

I second the motion. Although the pace for this episode made me ocassionally drowsy at certain times, it paid off rather nicely since Shana has turned conflicted upon perceiving that Yuuji pays more attention to Konoe, and poor Kasumi is as well feeling that she's interfering like a nuisance between those two.

[minhtam1638]

Just finished watching the subs, and I would have given my input, but grey moon and holyman282 summed it up perfectly... whichever one complied with mine. Off topic, but the debate between those two kind of reminded me of the Kanon 2006 final episode discussion.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Mentar

That Yuji doesn't get that Shana is jealous, even though he clearly picks up that she's angry? Keep in mind here that for Yuji, Shana is still a Flame Haze and not really all that human.

What about all that you are Shana stuff the writers kept shoving down our throats in S1? What about the I am Yuji and not just a torch? Yuji of all the people should understand Shana the most, more then Alastor, more then Maid-san. The reason why? He created Shana. It was his actions during S1 which gave birth to the Shana we know now. If Shana was still the Flame Haze, Yuji would be just plain dead and the Reiji Maigo would be safely tucked away in some really lucky torch.

Personally I have no problem with Shana and Yuji's relationship having a turn for the worst if it was written well. This epi imho can only be considered well written if S1 didn't exist.

[Aquifina]

Obviously a lot of how one views this episode depends on whether or not you think Yuuji's denseness *plausible*. In order to avoid rehashing things, I'd rather comment on a few other things:

1. The eating ramen contest was fun, because it was the first time I think we've seen Yuuji act as a competitive teenage guy--"I don't really understand it, but I won't lose!" was as priceless an expression of male competitiveness for the sake of competitiveness as I can think of. And it was neat seeing it come from, of all people, Yuuji. Although Yuuji's no coward, he rarely acts like "one of the boys," and I liked seeing him show some testosterone.

2. I'm of the opinion that Konoe really is Hecate, but obviously a version that's been sealed or something, who is also completely unaware of who she actually is. Or maybe the doll theory some of you have bandied about is what's going on. But I think the two are somehow related. My own speculation is that this is a trap of some kind for Yuuji, which he will walk into, partly because Shana won't be around to protect him, because she's been avoiding him.

Spoiler for Web spoiler of Ep. 5:

From the preview, the next ep. is supposed to about a family dinner of some kind, presumably with Chigusa and Wilhelmina. Post 19 has a spoiler about Yuuji going to Konoe's mansion. My guess is that at the dinner, things will be sorted out by Chigusa, but as that resolves itself, Yuuji will be walking into the Bal Masque trap at Konoe's place, probably at the end of the episode. Getting out of the trap will be ep. 6

Continuing my speculation, after Yuuji walks into the trap, some combination of the following will occur:

1. Shana will have to mount a rescue op. of Yuuji

2. Yuuji himself will show of some of his new powers

3. If Konoe is Hecate, she will become herself again, and out of loyalty to Yuuji for all his help, will help him escape. The same thing will occur if Konoe is some kind of surrogate or doll separate and apart from Hecate, but connected to the latter in some way.

4. The crisis will help sort things out between Shana and Yuuji. Konoe will conveniently disappear as part of the resolution, whatever it might be.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Aquifina

1. The eating ramen contest was fun, because it was the first time I think we've seen Yuuji act as a competitive teenage guy--"I don't really understand it, but I won't lose!" was as priceless an expression of male competitiveness for the sake of competitiveness as I can think of. And it was neat seeing it come from, of all people, Yuuji. Although Yuuji's no coward, he rarely acts like "one of the boys," and I liked seeing him show some testosterone.

Hee hee the thing I liked was how Shana beat them both without trying. I think she was on her 3rd desert by the time they finished

[holyman282]

Originally Posted by Mentar

I had no complaints about this ep. "Melancholy Girls" - that's what they depicted, and they did it fairly well. So what's all the bitching about?

I couldn't agree with you more, this ep was true to it's word and if by melancholy people thought, happy shana waltzing around with Yuji while they kiss, they obviously don't pay much attention to the ep title.

I honestly don't see anything to complain about.

That Yuji doesn't get that Shana is jealous, even though he clearly picks up that she's angry? Keep in mind here that for Yuji, Shana is still a Flame Haze and not really all that human. Except for the "Yuji ga suki", which they killed in ep1, Shana has been consistently in all-tsun mode with him in interpersonal matters. He should indeed pick up that Konoe is the reason for her irritation (and I think he did), and it's indeed a bit out of character for him not to follow up on it - but not so much that I'd call it a "plot hole" or anything.

Even were he to pick up on Shana's irritation with Konoe, I don't why he should just forget about her, especially when she dissapeared while they were eating and knowing that she could possibly fall of a cliff if she wasn't watched. I'll reiterate once again and that is that Yuji sees Konoe as a little sister which he must look after (that's what is seems to me). Hence Shana's actions and retorts were uncalled for and hence his inability to understand why she's angry. He was pretty perceptive when both Yoshida and Shana gave me food, knowing that he can't leave one more uneaten then the other. On this occasion he is unable to perceive the cause of Shana's anger as to him, he's merely looking after a little sister who was placed in his care.

If anything else I think Shana is being unreasonable by telling to forget her ect.

Originally Posted by stormy001_M1A2

I guess this episode discussion shows how impatient most general viewing public is. They all want non stop panty showing action and less "blabber".

I prefer the reason to be build up before the conflict was shown. No cause, no effect.

That's what I thought too. That most people's dislike of this ep stemmed from one of their favourite characters being hurt.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by holyman282

That's what I thought too. That most people's dislike of this ep stemmed from one of their favourite characters being hurt.

Personally I read a few people's dislike of the this episode is that they didn't like the inconsistent way Yuji is being displayed.

[holyman282]

Yes but no matter how you look at their complaint, it always has something to do with konoe or Yuji, who just happens to hurt Shana.... You matter how you look at it, it just seems like people don't like Shana getting hurt.

[serenade_beta]

Originally Posted by Aquifina

3. If Konoe is Hecate, she will become herself again, and out of loyalty to Yuuji for all his help, will help him escape. The same thing will occur if Konoe is some kind of surrogate or doll separate and apart from Hecate, but connected to the latter in some way.

I really hope this doesn't happen.

There are too many times where the bad guy spends time with the person they are supposed to kill/etc. and ends up being touched and saves them in the end.

We need more pure villains. Like Spaghetti!

[minhtam1638]

Originally Posted by holyman282

Yes but no matter how you look at their complaint, it always has something to do with konoe or Yuji, who just happens to hurt Shana.... You matter how you look at it, it just seems like people don't like Shana getting hurt.

Well, you can definitely tell that fans absolutely love Shana. She's on route to winning the Korean Best Moe tourney. This goes back to the "When Shana is sad, the world is sad" deal when fans tend to get upset at the circumstances surrounding Shana. They feel that someone has to take the blame. Whether it is Fumina or Yuji makes no difference, but someone has to take responsibliity for Shana's unwanted feelings.