AnimeSuki Forums

hamazura · 2013-07-16, 09:50

i just happen to saw some person in my country forum rant like "ahh i think theree are many gamer-in-disguise in this thread, i hate those type so much. its impossible to guess who the culprit by just seeing the anime!"

should i respect his opinion? Or should i laugh?

I mean 11037 its too damn obvious

just want to share my story

DiabloCthulhu · 2013-07-16, 10:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klashikari

It actually depend if they will bother showing Kirigiri checking thoroughly the bodies in general.

Well, even if they will bother to show that, wounds on the legs still shouldn't be an issue, simply because Kirigiri wasn't present during the investigation in chapter 5 (her own quick investigation happened off-screen).

AC-Phoenix · 2013-07-16, 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by hamazura

i just happen to saw some person in my country forum rant like "ahh i think theree are many gamer-in-disguise in this thread, i hate those type so much. its impossible to guess who the culprit by just seeing the anime!"

should i respect his opinion? Or should i laugh?

I mean 11037 its too damn obvious

just want to share my story

Well if one is from a country using latin letters its a lot more obvious than for someone from countries like japan where they use kanji.

It really depends a lot on whether you see the N if its 11037 or Leon.

**Klashikari** · 2013-07-16, 16:06

Sayaka could potentially write her message in Katakana, but I assume the chance of making a mistake would be much higher considering she wrote with her left hand without looking (Leon would be レオン).

The thing regarding the first case however is the fact that you need a tad more clues to figure what happened, instead of just "whodunnit". And even so, having 11037 only is a bit flimsy, exactly because there is no hard evidence that Sayaka wrote it herself. For all people know, it could be the culprit trying to frame someone, and realizing that writing from behind would lead to a 180° shift.

What is actually necessary is the mention of the slash mark on the scabbard and the gild leaves (to solidify the assumption that the culprit had to defend themselves), the janitor issue (otherwise, you could involve even idiot like Yasuhiro in the equation) and the incinerator being turn off prior the murder (linking the crystal ball shards with the activation of the incinerator).

Sure, claiming Leon did it with the dying message alone is within anyone's reach (provided you don't doubt it), but the howdunnit become a bit trickier (at least, the anime made it more obvious that Sayaka invited the culprit with Sayaka's being dead serious and Kyouko noticing the notepad).
Either way, the first case is a cake walk, but I'm a bit concerned about case 2, considering the amount of information necessary is much bigger than that.

hamazura · 2013-07-16, 16:36

maybe
Ep. 4 moar interaction + murder ending
Ep. 5 full invetigation (i hope, because its packed with interaction with togami)
Ep. 6 trial

im just hoping thatbthe reason theybshorten the investigation scene in case 1 its because it will be too easy if all clue mentioned and make the anime trial less interesting...
that means they have no reason to shorten inv case 2 because its too damn tricky even with full clue (because of random information of electroid weakness is only mentioned in trial and togamii is a dick)
just hoping man... make it reality...

**Klashikari** · 2013-07-16, 17:02

Case 2 has more than that:

1) Actual characterization for Chihiro
2) Contest between Kyotaka and Mondo in the sauna
3) Kyotaka and Mondo acting like brothers (extremely important for Alter Ego part)
4) Mondo verbal ticks
5) Genocide Shou file discovered by Makoto (this is even more important since they skipped the first mention of Genocide Shou by Chihiro back in the cafeteria before case 1)
6) Electronic Student Handbook used for unlocking the changing rooms
7) Investigation: Crime Scene, Electronic Student Handbook of those who already died, Sakura's testimony about Chihiro's wish to become stronger, Celes' testimony, Touko's issues (obvious signs of Genocide Shou persona emerging + her trying to keep it in check in her room)
8) Trial

That's really a lot to pack in, and imho, it really need 3 episodes in order to have the strict minimum.

Dengar · 2013-07-16, 17:06

Technically, the bloody message and the switched name plates is enough to figure out what happened inside the room. Which by itself is not enough to actually -incriminate- Kuwata, but it's enough for a viewer to know what happened.

Note that even in the game, it doesn't become apparent until early in the trial that it was Maizono who took the knife from the kitchen.

AC-Phoenix · 2013-07-16, 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Case 2 has more than that:

1) Actual characterization for Chihiro
2) Contest between Kyotaka and Mondo in the sauna
3) Kyotaka and Mondo acting like brothers (extremely important for Alter Ego part)
4) Mondo verbal ticks
5) Genocide Shou file discovered by Makoto (this is even more important since they skipped the first mention of Genocide Shou by Chihiro back in the cafeteria before case 1)
6) Electronic Student Handbook used for unlocking the changing rooms
7) Investigation: Crime Scene, Electronic Student Handbook of those who already died, Sakura's testimony about Chihiro's wish to become stronger, Celes' testimony
8) Trial

That's really a lot to pack in, and imho, it really need 3 episodes in order to have the strict minimum.

Mondo's calling girls chick and boys kid will probably be one of the facts only a few people will realize in the first place, as he has yet to get enough text for anyone to see the difference.

Dengar · 2013-07-16, 17:21

So? Don't tell me you knew who the culprit was during case 2?

AC-Phoenix · 2013-07-16, 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dengar

So? Don't tell me you knew who the culprit was during case 2?

I didn't know, but I had a hunch originating from the same dialogue Kyouko picked up that he started referring to chihiro as 'kid'.
What made me supspicious about him was his rueful way of saying stuff, as well as the sprites used during that scene.
It was all in all completely different from when Maizono died.

That and I probably also subconciously got that something was wrong with his way of talking, I didn't really realize it was his way of referring to people though.

Chihiro being a boy was kinda obvious in my opinion. The entire being weak complex stuff was just one of the few things giving him away.
That was btw also the reason I didn't want to blutly tell people Sakura was female back then - cause she serves as a good distraction for chihiro

.

Sadly, Togami and his crime scene messing made me believe it was him afterwards, and it took me until the trial to realize again that my first suspicion correct.
Figuring out that Fukawa didn't have anything to do with Chihiro's death was obvious too, that would have made things too easy.

So yeah I kinda suspected Mondo, but Togami managed to get me off the right track for a bit until I managed to return there.

Dengar · 2013-07-16, 17:54

It's ok to suspect someone based on a gut feeling. But judging from your story you just had a feeling, not really anything to go on.

AC-Phoenix · 2013-07-16, 18:16

As I saidthe whodunit it was just a feeling.
May it have been me subconciously seing the 'chick - kid' - trick or something else, I don't know.
Other than that I didn't really have anything to go with until the point I realized Togami had to have messed with the crime scene in one way or another.
If not for togami placing that red hering everything would have fell together neatly.

DiabloCthulhu · 2013-07-18, 10:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klashikari

The thing regarding the first case however is the fact that you need a tad more clues to figure what happened, instead of just "whodunnit".

What is actually necessary is the mention of the slash mark on the scabbard and the gild leaves (to solidify the assumption that the culprit had to defend themselves), the janitor issue (otherwise, you could involve even idiot like Yasuhiro in the equation) and the incinerator being turn off prior the murder (linking the crystal ball shards with the activation of the incinerator).

It's really not necessary though. With these clues you just getting a bit more clear picture of howdunnit, you don't need them to figure out what happened, you can do that with anime-only clues just fine, it's just a little bit trickier (which is a good thing, considering how easy the first case is). I mean, regarding the slash mark on the scabbard - state of the room and the fact that there's painted in gold sword and Maizono's wrist is fractured and has gold leaf on it is already making the assumption about self-defence solid enough. Regarding gold leaf - not only they showed her hand with gold leaf on the wrist right before Naegi said that Maizono's wrist was hit and appears to be fractured, but they also showed painted in gold sword during Naegi's sentence about fracture (and you can even see that the paint came off in some places); basically, during these several seconds show is literally saying "her wrist has gold leaf because culprit hit it with this painted in gold sword that he was using to defend himself", just not aloud. Regarding the janitor issue - they showed that incinerator room can only be opened with the key and all other possibilities other than "culprit didn't had a key, so he throwed glass ball to activate the incinerator and then throwed his shirt into the incinerator" don't really make sense. And regarding the incinerator being turn off prior the murder - you can easily link the crystal ball shards with the activation of the incinerator by taking into consideration other clues.

**Klashikari** · 2013-07-18, 11:06

The thing with the janitor duty isn't as simple as you make it sound: there is absolutely nothing that state in the anime that the key is kept by only 1 person (because in some other setup, the keys are kept in a safe that is avaiable to everyone or so). Hifumi being there could be because Kyotaka was busy with his own investigation as well.
You don't know if there is another set of that key either. You need the assumption that the students made is sure so the trash room isn't freely available. Otherwise, you could involve anyone entering in the trash room without any impunity.

The crystal ball could also be a red herring assuming you don't know if the button switch are on a console, on a wall or something (they are visible the moment Makoto and Hifumi opened the shutter, but they also look like just light indicators). Heck, people didn't know Yasuhiro lost his crystal ball beforehand. Of course, this "hint" is rather unusual because if Yasuhiro was the culprit, he would realize already that he broke his ball unless he was in a hurry with the key.
And since the anime didn't show that the incinerator was still active, there is no reason to think that the culprit didn't turn if off afterwards, the rest of the evidence (mainly the shirt piece) could be attributed to the culprit carelness (which was true for Sayaka's dying message to begin with).

As for the gold leaf, I disagree simply because the impact with the sword was strong enough to break her wrist. So you can't exactly conclude "oh, so you simply touch it, it is enough to have gold on your skin".
To supplement this issue: the anime left the -hilt- intact despite the blade lost some of its gilding, which could also infer the assumption that only strong impact (against Sayaka wrist and the walls) could remove the gilding. Of course, this is a mistake of their part.
With such assumption, you could actually imagine a situation where it is actually Sayaka trying to defend herself with the sword, the culprit picking the scabbard to break her wrist (since a scabbard would be more practical to disarm someone than just a knife) and then finish her off with the knife.

The case is easy as it is, but the clues are not decisive to have your anime only conclusion with full confidence on it with 100% accuracy. Rather, you can bet on it for like 70%, because of the crystal ball, the janitor issue, the gold sword being skipped.

AC-Phoenix · 2013-07-18, 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klashikari

The case is easy as it is, but the clues are not decisive to have your anime only conclusion with full confidence on it with 100% accuracy. Rather, you can bet on it for like 70%, because of the crystal ball, the janitor issue, the gold sword being skipped.

I agree. This is why i thought some people read the lets play or watched spoilers before posting in the speculation thread.
If you don't know Maizono took the knife, you can as well assume she was the one defending herself with it and got it stolen away ín the process.
In my opinion its the hilt that gives Maizono away, not the door plates.

Dengar · 2013-07-18, 15:55

Maybe they hadn't thought about the crystal ball at all? Maybe they just went with the fact that the name plates were switched, coupled with Maizono's face before the incident. Oh, and the obvious bloody message.

AC-Phoenix · 2013-07-18, 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dengar

Maybe they hadn't thought about the crystal ball at all? Maybe they just went with the fact that the name plates were switched, coupled with Maizono's face before the incident. Oh, and the obvious bloody message.

Which would support my point, because then it would be more likely to think that Sayaka had the sword, the scabbard only proofs that the holder of the sword was the one who got attacked.
If the hilt is undamaged though, it could have as well been held by Sayaka, since you never get to the question if she could have washed her hands.

Dengar · 2013-07-18, 16:13

What does it matter who had the sword?

**Klashikari** · 2013-07-18, 16:16

It does matter in term of understanding the situation and how it come to it.
Like stated previously, finding the culprit isn't hard, but that's not exactly rewarding if you can't even figure how it happened (and again, the dying message is "so obvious" it isn't, because it is an evidence that is often tempered).

That's why a mystery fiction always involve whodunnit, howdunnit and whydunnit, although the motive in DR is de facto known, save exceptions.

Dengar · 2013-07-18, 16:17

Oh I'll admit that finding out -exactly- what happened is difficult albeit not impossible, there are only two clues needed to figure out "Maizono tried to kill Kuwata but she failed and got killed instead".

2013-07-16, 09:50	Link #81
hamazura whatever Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: wherever	i just happen to saw some person in my country forum rant like "ahh i think theree are many gamer-in-disguise in this thread, i hate those type so much. its impossible to guess who the culprit by just seeing the anime!" should i respect his opinion? Or should i laugh? I mean 11037 its too damn obvious just want to share my story __________________

2013-07-16, 16:06	Link #84
Klashikari 阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180 Graphic Designer Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Belgium, Brussels Age: 37	Sayaka could potentially write her message in Katakana, but I assume the chance of making a mistake would be much higher considering she wrote with her left hand without looking (Leon would be レオン). The thing regarding the first case however is the fact that you need a tad more clues to figure what happened, instead of just "whodunnit". And even so, having 11037 only is a bit flimsy, exactly because there is no hard evidence that Sayaka wrote it herself. For all people know, it could be the culprit trying to frame someone, and realizing that writing from behind would lead to a 180° shift. What is actually necessary is the mention of the slash mark on the scabbard and the gild leaves (to solidify the assumption that the culprit had to defend themselves), the janitor issue (otherwise, you could involve even idiot like Yasuhiro in the equation) and the incinerator being turn off prior the murder (linking the crystal ball shards with the activation of the incinerator). Sure, claiming Leon did it with the dying message alone is within anyone's reach (provided you don't doubt it), but the howdunnit become a bit trickier (at least, the anime made it more obvious that Sayaka invited the culprit with Sayaka's being dead serious and Kyouko noticing the notepad). Either way, the first case is a cake walk, but I'm a bit concerned about case 2, considering the amount of information necessary is much bigger than that. __________________ [Sig art: Kagura Yuu, Nunukko, Maku Rako & Mishima Kurone] / [Twitter] Last edited by Klashikari; 2013-07-16 at 16:25.

2013-07-16, 16:36	Link #85
hamazura whatever Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: wherever	maybe Ep. 4 moar interaction + murder ending Ep. 5 full invetigation (i hope, because its packed with interaction with togami) Ep. 6 trial im just hoping thatbthe reason theybshorten the investigation scene in case 1 its because it will be too easy if all clue mentioned and make the anime trial less interesting... that means they have no reason to shorten inv case 2 because its too damn tricky even with full clue (because of random information of electroid weakness is only mentioned in trial and togamii is a dick) just hoping man... make it reality... __________________

2013-07-16, 17:02	Link #86
Klashikari 阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180 Graphic Designer Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Belgium, Brussels Age: 37	Case 2 has more than that: 1) Actual characterization for Chihiro 2) Contest between Kyotaka and Mondo in the sauna 3) Kyotaka and Mondo acting like brothers (extremely important for Alter Ego part) 4) Mondo verbal ticks 5) Genocide Shou file discovered by Makoto (this is even more important since they skipped the first mention of Genocide Shou by Chihiro back in the cafeteria before case 1) 6) Electronic Student Handbook used for unlocking the changing rooms 7) Investigation: Crime Scene, Electronic Student Handbook of those who already died, Sakura's testimony about Chihiro's wish to become stronger, Celes' testimony, Touko's issues (obvious signs of Genocide Shou persona emerging + her trying to keep it in check in her room) 8) Trial That's really a lot to pack in, and imho, it really need 3 episodes in order to have the strict minimum. __________________ [Sig art: Kagura Yuu, Nunukko, Maku Rako & Mishima Kurone] / [Twitter] Last edited by Klashikari; 2013-07-16 at 17:19.

2013-07-16, 18:16	Link #92
AC-Phoenix Detective Join Date: Aug 2010 Age: 36	As I saidthe whodunit it was just a feeling. May it have been me subconciously seing the 'chick - kid' - trick or something else, I don't know. Other than that I didn't really have anything to go with until the point I realized Togami had to have messed with the crime scene in one way or another. If not for togami placing that red hering everything would have fell together neatly. __________________ Those who forget about the past are condemned to repeat it - Santayana Sidenote: I'm seemingly too dumb for my current keyboard, so if you see the same character twice in a row, when it doesn't belong there just ignore it.

2013-07-16, 17:06	Link #87
Dengar Kamen Rider Muppeteer Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Unknown Age: 39	Technically, the bloody message and the switched name plates is enough to figure out what happened inside the room. Which by itself is not enough to actually -incriminate- Kuwata, but it's enough for a viewer to know what happened. Note that even in the game, it doesn't become apparent until early in the trial that it was Maizono who took the knife from the kitchen.

2013-07-16, 17:21	Link #89
Dengar Kamen Rider Muppeteer Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Unknown Age: 39	So? Don't tell me you knew who the culprit was during case 2?

2013-07-16, 17:54	Link #91
Dengar Kamen Rider Muppeteer Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Unknown Age: 39	It's ok to suspect someone based on a gut feeling. But judging from your story you just had a feeling, not really anything to go on.

2013-07-18, 11:06	Link #94
Klashikari 阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180 Graphic Designer Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Belgium, Brussels Age: 37	The thing with the janitor duty isn't as simple as you make it sound: there is absolutely nothing that state in the anime that the key is kept by only 1 person (because in some other setup, the keys are kept in a safe that is avaiable to everyone or so). Hifumi being there could be because Kyotaka was busy with his own investigation as well. You don't know if there is another set of that key either. You need the assumption that the students made is sure so the trash room isn't freely available. Otherwise, you could involve anyone entering in the trash room without any impunity. The crystal ball could also be a red herring assuming you don't know if the button switch are on a console, on a wall or something (they are visible the moment Makoto and Hifumi opened the shutter, but they also look like just light indicators). Heck, people didn't know Yasuhiro lost his crystal ball beforehand. Of course, this "hint" is rather unusual because if Yasuhiro was the culprit, he would realize already that he broke his ball unless he was in a hurry with the key. And since the anime didn't show that the incinerator was still active, there is no reason to think that the culprit didn't turn if off afterwards, the rest of the evidence (mainly the shirt piece) could be attributed to the culprit carelness (which was true for Sayaka's dying message to begin with). As for the gold leaf, I disagree simply because the impact with the sword was strong enough to break her wrist. So you can't exactly conclude "oh, so you simply touch it, it is enough to have gold on your skin". To supplement this issue: the anime left the -hilt- intact despite the blade lost some of its gilding, which could also infer the assumption that only strong impact (against Sayaka wrist and the walls) could remove the gilding. Of course, this is a mistake of their part. With such assumption, you could actually imagine a situation where it is actually Sayaka trying to defend herself with the sword, the culprit picking the scabbard to break her wrist (since a scabbard would be more practical to disarm someone than just a knife) and then finish her off with the knife. The case is easy as it is, but the clues are not decisive to have your anime only conclusion with full confidence on it with 100% accuracy. Rather, you can bet on it for like 70%, because of the crystal ball, the janitor issue, the gold sword being skipped. __________________ [Sig art: Kagura Yuu, Nunukko, Maku Rako & Mishima Kurone] / [Twitter] Last edited by Klashikari; 2013-07-18 at 11:33.

2013-07-18, 15:55	Link #96
Dengar Kamen Rider Muppeteer Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Unknown Age: 39	Maybe they hadn't thought about the crystal ball at all? Maybe they just went with the fact that the name plates were switched, coupled with Maizono's face before the incident. Oh, and the obvious bloody message.

2013-07-18, 16:13	Link #98
Dengar Kamen Rider Muppeteer Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Unknown Age: 39	What does it matter who had the sword?

2013-07-18, 16:16	Link #99
Klashikari 阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180 Graphic Designer Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Belgium, Brussels Age: 37	It does matter in term of understanding the situation and how it come to it. Like stated previously, finding the culprit isn't hard, but that's not exactly rewarding if you can't even figure how it happened (and again, the dying message is "so obvious" it isn't, because it is an evidence that is often tempered). That's why a mystery fiction always involve whodunnit, howdunnit and whydunnit, although the motive in DR is de facto known, save exceptions. __________________ [Sig art: Kagura Yuu, Nunukko, Maku Rako & Mishima Kurone] / [Twitter]

2013-07-18, 16:17	Link #100
Dengar Kamen Rider Muppeteer Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Unknown Age: 39	Oh I'll admit that finding out -exactly- what happened is difficult albeit not impossible, there are only two clues needed to figure out "Maizono tried to kill Kuwata but she failed and got killed instead".