Toradora! Generic discussion thread

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by frivolity

Kinda off-topic, but of Rie's 5 main tsundere characters, only Yuuhi did not truly end up with the male lead, but even then it was a harem ending. Perhaps it's because the change in a tsundere's character is almost always a major part of her development, and substantial content has to be devoted to it. Barring character death, there would be no point in transforming the character in such a way only for her not to end up with the male lead.

By the old usage of the term "tsundere", yeah. Now it means something along the lines of "almost bipolar".

[Vexx]

My definition these days is "crunchy on the outside, creamy nougat inside" ...

In other words, they retain their crusty exterior for most, but at the end of the day for a particular someone, its cuddle time.

[Argent]

Originally Posted by npal

You mean you actually don't expect it to end the cliched way? :P Too bad, cause the way I see it, that's exactly how it's gonna end.

Yeah, actually, because it's the least interesting way to let it play out. Plus, the author decided to break two characters to make it happen that way.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Argent

Yeah, actually, because it's the least interesting way to let it play out. Plus, the author decided to break two characters to make it happen that way.

I love how you keep complaining like you should have the right to decide how the story ends and what the characters do.

"Interesting" is subjective, to start with, and the story belongs to the author and it's her decision on how to end it.

I'm sorry that you don't like it, but...

[puppygod]

Originally Posted by Argent

Yeah, actually, because it's the least interesting way to let it play out. Plus, the author decided to break two characters to make it happen that way.

There is limited number of possible ending for romance story. They do end together, or the don't. Oh, there is also inconclusive ending, but that's just cope out. What kind of ending was you expecting?

Also, what do you mean by "breaking two characters"?

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Argent

Yeah, actually, because it's the least interesting way (in my opinion) to let it play out. Plus, the author decided to break two characters (in my opinion) to make it happen that way.

There, fixed for you.
Well... considering all the other anime I've seen where a romance doesn't "play out" this way, this is actually somewhat unusual - *particularly* in how the storyline evolved. I'll concede that romance stories that center on one couple do tend to end with the couple together in some fashion but its the process rather than the ending that makes it interesting.

I see no evidence that two characters were "broken". You'll have to provide some support for that assertion. If you mean Minori and Ami - both seemed quite consistent and believable. Minori has goals that a relationship would interfere with and feels strongly that Taiga's happiness makes her happy. Ami just had the bad fortune of arriving late and getting off on the wrong foot - real life works that way too.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Vexx

I see no evidence that two characters were "broken". You'll have to provide some support for that assertion. If you mean Minori and Ami - both seemed quite consistent and believable. Minori has goals that a relationship would interfere with and feels strongly that Taiga's happiness makes her happy. Ami just had the bad fortune of arriving late and getting off on the wrong foot - real life works that way too.

He's referring to Ryuuji and Taiga, as he doesn't seem to believe that they could ever fall in love.

[SageGaiGar]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

He's referring to Ryuuji and Taiga, as he doesn't seem to believe that they could ever fall in love.

Under their circumstances though, how could they not?

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

He's referring to Ryuuji and Taiga, as he doesn't seem to believe that they could ever fall in love.

Okay, that makes even less sense... gonna have to work pretty hard to support *that* assertion, since they spend most of the series deeply bonded and supportive of each other with only the facade of crushes on "other targets" blinding them.

[MeoTwister5]

I'd like to point out some of my previous posts about Ryuuji's and Taiga's characters'personalities to show just how broken they are, but those posts are like 3 weeks old and I can't find them anymore, so I'll rewrite them after I go to the gym or if I gather enough mental juices to do it again.

[npal]

Actually, anyone who thinks Shana doesn't end up with Yuuji hasn't been paying attention to the anime ending. We can't speculate, it's painfully obvious. Rewatch the last scenes please.

Naru's not tsundere? O_o Some of my tsundere-loving friends would be pulling their hair at that remark right now.

Anyway, regarding the issue, it's still a novel approach, that's why it's ok. I do understand the broken character notion though. Ryuuji and Taiga both had their eyes set for a long time on two specific people. Considering that their feelings were genuine for all that time ( I refuse to disregard it as pure delusions or facade, there's hardly any basis for that if we discount the uncalled for shift in priorities) and they actually teamed up with that purpose in mind, and considering they were almost there, the ease by which those romantic feelings got transformed into feelings for one another almost in the blink of an eye, while plausible enough not to disregard completely as BS, feels a bit forced to me. The gradual process of building such a close friendship between the characters was undeniably great, but the sudden shift wasn't really. All I saw is Ami remarking on something that just didn't seem to be there, everything was progressing normally, and then Taiga goes into emo-mode, followed some weeks later by Ryuuji suddenly accepting Taiga's feelings. Sure, it does happen between close friends, but I was kinda hoping that the characters were mature enough in that aspect to avoid "the easy way out" (aka I get one rejection and all of a sudden my close, cute friend doesn't seem like a bad choice anymore), and I had little reason to suspect they weren't. The process was fun indeed, but I'm really hoping for the twist I'm not gonna get, and that ruins any rewatch value for me, as I consider such an ending inferior to how I perceived the rest of the series. Each with his own poison I suppose.

I also need to remind the one who brought up Akaneiro, that Akaneiro is a VISUAL novel adaptation (meaning multiple paths). The visual novel adaptations I have seen so far don't end up with tsundere from what I recall, and even so, there is a difference between an established route (manga, novel) and multiple arcs (visual novel, h-game).

Spoiler for Other anime info:

I haven't seen Hayate so I can't comment on that. SnS, ZnT, Toradora, LH all have characters relationships as an important part though, and in all (ok, besides Toradora for now, since I don't know its conclusion yet), the main tsundere girl gets the main guy.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by SageGaiGar

Under their circumstances though, how could they not?

Hmm.

Well, they were originally attracted to other people, and I guess some viewers didn't see that their closeness and emotional connection would eventually lead to a romantic relationship?

Originally Posted by npal

Actually, anyone who thinks Shana doesn't end up with Yuuji hasn't been paying attention to the anime ending. We can't speculate, it's painfully obvious. Rewatch the last scenes please.

Uh. What.

Are you referring to the first or second season?

Originally Posted by npal

Ryuuji and Taiga both had their eyes set for a long time on two specific people. Considering that their feelings were genuine for all that time ( I refuse to disregard it as pure delusions or facade, there's hardly any basis for that if we discount the uncalled for shift in priorities)

See, there's your sign.

Ryuuji really really cares about Taiga, and, if forced to choose between the two, he would choose Taiga.

Taiga, in turn, became close to Ryuuji from the very first couple of episodes, and really really cares about him, though she has an odd way of showing it, heh.


And when both Taiga and Ryuuji realize how unrealistic and impossible their chances with their respective crushes are, their emotions turn to the person they've been the closest to all along.

Originally Posted by npal

Sure, it does happen between close friends, but I was kinda hoping that the characters were mature enough in that aspect to avoid "the easy way out" (aka I get one rejection and all of a sudden my close, cute friend doesn't seem like a bad choice anymore), and I had little reason to suspect they weren't.

They're teenagers. You expect them to make smart decisions?

Originally Posted by npal

The process was fun indeed, but I'm really hoping for the twist I'm not gonna get, and that ruins any rewatch value for me, as I consider such an ending inferior to how I perceived the rest of the series. Each with his own poison I suppose.

This ought to be good. What twist are you hoping for now?

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

I'd like to point out some of my previous posts about Ryuuji's and Taiga's characters'personalities to show just how broken they are, but those posts are like 3 weeks old and I can't find them anymore, so I'll rewrite them after I go to the gym or if I gather enough mental juices to do it again.

He means broken as in out-of-character.

[MeoTwister5]

Ah snap. Oh well. Where the hell is episode 23?

[npal]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Hmm.

Well, they were originally attracted to other people, and I guess some viewers didn't see that their closeness and emotional connection would eventually lead to a romantic relationship?

They could but time between situation A (bonded friends really liking other people) to situation B (falling for each other) is too little

Uh. What.

Are you referring to the first or second season?

Second


See, there's your sign.

Ryuuji really really cares about Taiga, and, if forced to choose between the two, he would choose Taiga.

Taiga, in turn, became close to Ryuuji from the very first couple of episodes, and really really cares about him, though she has an odd way of showing it, heh.

And when both Taiga and Ryuuji realize how unrealistic and impossible their chances with their respective crushes are, their emotions turn to the person they've been the closest to all along.

They're teenagers. You expect them to make smart decisions?

Considering they were pretty decent and smart characters in the series, yes, I guess either the writers didn't communicate their inability to make smart decisions or I was expecting too much out of them

This ought to be good. What twist are you hoping for now?

Taiga NOT ending up with Ryuuji

He means broken as in out-of-character.

For me it's borderline in character only considering that a number of your usual teens would, in fact, seek romantic comfort from their closest opposite sex friend. Otherwise, no, I had Taiga and Ryuuji on a higher pedestal that THAT

Answers are in bold

[SageGaiGar]

Originally Posted by npal

Answers are in bold

#1.

They already had that hints of affinity back towards beginning (Not before they met but as they hanged out.)

Spoiler for Taiga/Kitamura:

Notice how Taiga when asked by Kitamura 'did not hate Ryuuji'. No affinity would've been "who him?"

but they were more focused on their respective crushes (or atleast pretending/distracting themselves).

#2. Bah they never really work it out much. It's an afterthought, secondary to everything else. They are connected but in a 'meh' kind of way. Plus they always pull the semi-reset in the seasons.

#3. Or maybe they couldn't put everything from the novels into this series.

#4. We all got our opinions. They end up together? Forced.. maybe. But with her character, not getting together with Ryuuji would force her into the background much like what's happening with Minorin. And it'd be too deus ex machina for some other love interest to pop up... These are first loves for all I'm pretty certain too.

#5. It's not like they decided this, they fell into it.

These are of course open for discussion

[Tyabann]

Being intelligent =/= ability to make rational decisions.

The next three episodes should REALLY illustrate this, if they follow the books.

Also, as said by many people, Taiga and Ryuuji have been really really close since the beginning, and if it weren't for a combination of tunnel vision, bad circumstances, and selflessness, they would already be dating.

[Fran~]

Probably not... i came to this conclusion: this is a history when 2 youngs, who loves their respectives friends, start to trust in each other to fulfill the objective, but that common fight made them so close each other, they could see the best and the worst of the other and live with that... all that bricks became a great bridge who linked their lives.

Taiga and Ryuuji history is quite fast, how months had past since they meet each other?... 10 months?... maybe less.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Fran~

Probably not... i came to this conclusion: this is a history when 2 youngs, who loves their respectives friends, start to trust in each other to fulfill the objective, but that common fight made them so close each other, they could see the best and the worst of the other and live with that... all that bricks became a great bridge who linked their lives.

Taiga and Ryuuji history is quite fast, how months had past since they meet each other?... 10 months?... maybe less.

About 10 months, yeah.

They met in April, it's nearly February now.

[(o^^)-o*(x_x)*]

I've met people who've fallen in love in less time than that. I myself always hung out with my current girlfriend for almost a year before we decided to start dating.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Also, as said by many people, Taiga and Ryuuji have been really really close since the beginning, and if it weren't for a combination of tunnel vision, bad circumstances, and selflessness, they would already be dating.

The anime's sort of "rationale" for this was already provided at the very beginning of the show in the form of a sort of riddle:

Originally Posted by Episode 1 Opening Narration

There's something in this world that no one has ever seen.
It's something kind and very sweet.
If people could see it, they would probably want it.
That's why the world hit it;
So that it wouldn't be so easy to find.
But someday, someone will definitely find it.
The one who is supposed to find it, will be the one to find it.
That's just how it is.

All one basically needs to do is solve the riddle. What is this "something"? It was pretty easy to guess at the beginning of the show, but should be pretty obvious to everyone by now, I think...