Madoka Magica - Episode 05 Discussion / Poll

[Solace]

Look the simple facts about Kyubey are two things:

1. He wants magical girls, the more powerful the better
2. He'll use any situation, regardless if he orchestrated it or not, to create an excuse for a contract

That's it. Everything outside of these two facts is speculation, plain and simple. Personally I think he's amoral. He doesn't care about ANYTHING BUT making magical girls. We cannot pass judgments on his methods because we've never seen him do anything but suggest at "coincidental" moments to contract. That's hardly evil...maybe suspicious, but he's got a job to do. He hasn't broken any free will and there's no evidence to suggest that he is coercing them either.

We know nothing about the witches, but we're led to believe they are fallen magical girls. Fair enough. The problem is that we have no idea how they get from girl to witch outside of losing magical power. So we have no idea if Kyubey has any influence on the witch side of the equation. Perhaps he is solely responsible for recruiting girls, and there is someone else making witches?

Point is, he's creepy looking and suspicious as all get out but he has not demonstrated good or evil motives. All he's done is his job: contract magical girls. And frankly, I'm not expecting a "Muahahahaha!" *mustache twirl and adjust monocle* moment from him anytime soon.

It's especially apparent that he is not omnipotent and that things can be out of his control when it is stated that he is unaware of Homura's origins, and Homura infers that the dead cannot be brought back to life. Kyubey has remained neutral in every fight...he has demonstrated no special powers except to grant wishes, contracts, and telepathy I guess.

What makes Kyubey so interesting to read about in everyone's discussions is that we have two camps. One thinks he's innocent until proven guilty, the other thinks he is guilty until proven innocent. The speculation one way or another is insightful.

[Gimpy]

I just got done watching this and it is a good series, but why is everyone so hung up on their theories? I can't see anything that proves anything. Kyube looks like a normal magical animal to me. And time travel seems too confusing to make sense, although I think Homura might have known Madoka before. I have seen too many fandoms where there is always someone who insists they are right on everything and I do not want to see it here.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Solace

Look the simple facts about Kyubey are two things:

1. He wants magical girls, the more powerful the better
2. He'll use any situation, regardless if he orchestrated it or not, to create an excuse for a contract

That's it. Everything outside of these two facts is speculation, plain and simple. Personally I think he's amoral. He doesn't care about ANYTHING BUT making magical girls. We cannot pass judgments on his methods because we've never seen him do anything but suggest at "coincidental" moments to contract. That's hardly evil...maybe suspicious, but he's got a job to do. He hasn't broken any free will and there's no evidence to suggest that he is coercing them either.

We know nothing about the witches, but we're led to believe they are fallen magical girls. Fair enough. The problem is that we have no idea how they get from girl to witch outside of losing magical power. So we have no idea if Kyubey has any influence on the witch side of the equation. Perhaps he is solely responsible for recruiting girls, and there is someone else making witches?

Point is, he's creepy looking and suspicious as all get out but he has not demonstrated good or evil motives. All he's done is his job: contract magical girls. And frankly, I'm not expecting a "Muahahahaha!" *mustache twirl and adjust monocle* moment from him anytime soon.

It's especially apparent that he is not omnipotent and that things can be out of his control when it is stated that he is unaware of Homura's origins, and Homura infers that the dead cannot be brought back to life. Kyubey has remained neutral in every fight...he has demonstrated no special powers except to grant wishes, contracts, and telepathy I guess.

What makes Kyubey so interesting to read about in everyone's discussions is that we have two camps. One thinks he's innocent until proven guilty, the other thinks he is guilty until proven innocent. The speculation one way or another is insightful.

Thank you!^^ Yes, I'd have to say I'm in the innocent until guilty camp, though I'll certainly judge him as guilty if evidence comes along, heh.

[Makender]

Anyone else notice that (rather freaky) line of cars as Kyuube was spewing his devil whispers? Got all his ducks lined up in a row...

[Dark Wing]

Something else crossed my mind during this episode and as small as it may be I have to point it out. It would seem that all MG's have a mark on the right middle finger. Any reason given for this I would guess to hied their soul gem?

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

Something else crossed my mind during this episode and as small as it may be I have to point it out. It would seem that all MG's have a mark on the right middle finger. Any reason given for this I would guess to hied their soul gem?

It seems to be the "symbol" of each MG. The soul gem turns into the ring they're wearing (and vice versa)

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by fukarming

The writer/ director of the show can easily use the rest of the episodes to make Kyubei good if he chooses to be.

Except that it has to be consistent, plot twists without sufficient groundwork done for it will seem out of place and stupid.

An example: K-ON Season 2. I throw a plot twist at the end of episode 24 where Yui is an insane murderer ala Higurashi and kills everyone after the concert.

I could come up with any sort of reason to support this but it would fail because there was no foreshadowing for it.

Currently with 5 episodes gone, the window of opportunity to set the the groundwork to support homura=evil, kyubei =good is going fast.

You would need to explain away with support why Kyubei never explains anything on the negative side (Mami did) and pressures you to sign up for mahou shojoness (Until Mami stopped him). If he was a salesman, he would have been hauled to court for misrepresentation and consumer protection laws.

Additionally explainations would be required for why he never gets attacked other than by Homura, why he showed up to Mami at the point she was desperate, why he never warns Sayaka, why he appeared to Sayaka when he already said bye to them.

[Raiga]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

Something else crossed my mind during this episode and as small as it may be I have to point it out. It would seem that all MG's have a mark on the right middle finger. Any reason given for this I would guess to hied their soul gem?

Probably just imagery; it's the same finger they wear the soul gem ring on, and the emblem is also incorporated into their costumes.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by fukarming

I don't understand why Mentar and Kaijo arguing about something that cannot be argued

Afterall, so far Kyubei has not committed a single "evil" act. (indifferent maybe, but so far Kyubei did not do anything bad)

If you want an answer to your question, then look at your later statement. That's what a lot of us feel, that Kyube hasn't done anything evil yet. But be careful stating something like that; you'll get a couple of people jumping down your neck, wondering how you can possibly think that way.

[Slick_rick]

Well Kyubbi is certainly very manipulative at best and downright evil at worst. Either not the sort of person that should be giving advice to impressionable young girls. He seems especially manipulative when talking to Madoka about knowing she'd want to protect to Sayaka and calling her "the ace in the hole" knowing very well and even saying so, that Sayaka wouldn't approve of Madoka becoming a MG either.

I also quite enjoyed the opening scenes. It definitely instead of giving a more normal becoming a MG sequence it gave a quite dark and foreboding sequence. I love how Sayaka feel over with her hands to her chest when she landed it certainly looked like a corpse resting in its coffin. I'm no fan of Shaft, in fact I think they rarely have an meaningful depth to their imaginary usually just throwing out effects at random, but I thought this was especially well done.

Though the most interesting part of this episode was to me the conversation between Madoka and Homura. When she said it be as useless as wishing the dead back it made me think that she'd attempted it. If Kyubbi wishes didn't allow her to wish Madoka back then maybe she did go back in time. And if she did want to save Madoka according to her she have to do it before she became a MG. This seems a very interesting possibility for Homura's reasoning so far.

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

That's what a lot of us feel

Total speculation. Prove that a LOT of people feel this way or add IMO in front of it


Hey i'm getting the hang of just using "Total speculation" LOL!

[Dark Wing]

Like it or not Kyubei hasn't been shown to be out right evil...I'm constantly flopping back and forth on this one because while he comes of a manipulative the witches seem fare worse...

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

Like it or not Kyubei hasn't been shown to be out right evil...I'm constantly flopping back and forth on this one because while he comes of a manipulative the witches seem fare worse...

Well, what we're not knowing at the moment is "what's his gain"? Why does QB hound the girls for contracts?

People who believe that he's doing it for altruism and love and justice, please raise your hands.

[estdesoda]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

Though the most interesting part of this episode was to me the conversation between Madoka and Homura. When she said it be as useless as wishing the dead back it made me think that she'd attempted it. If Kyubbi wishes didn't allow her to wish Madoka back then maybe she did go back in time. And if she did want to save Madoka according to her she have to do it before she became a MG. This seems a very interesting possibility for Homura's reasoning so far.

Actually, Homura never said anything that directly links the concept of "wish" and "bringing dead back" together. She only said that becoming a MG is as irreversable as having someone dead.

I heard this from raw:

「あの子は契約すべきじゃなかった。確かに私のミスよ。あなただけでなく、彼女もきちんと関心 しておくべき だったら。」
「なら…！」
「でも、責任にを認めて言わせてもらうわ。今と何でも、どうやっても償い切れないミスなの。死 んでしまった 人がかえて来ないと同じこと。一度魔法少女になってしまったら、もうの救われる望みなんでない 。あの契約は 、ただひとつの希望と引き換えに、すべてを諦めるでことだから。」

I do agree that she might be implying that you can neither wish for reviving dead people nor wish for someone to not be a MG anymore, through.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Well, what we're not knowing at the moment is "what's his gain"? Why does QB hound the girls for contracts?

Because there are witches to be killed?

People who believe that he's doing it for altruism and love and justice, please raise your hands.

I wouldn't raise mine. But then again, I'm one of the silly ones that thinks Kyube is amoral, no more evil than a robot with a programmed subroutine.

[Makender]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Well, what we're not knowing at the moment is "what's his gain"? Why does QB hound the girls for contracts?

People who believe that he's doing it for altruism and love and justice, please raise your hands.

Clearly he's in it to expand his stable of magical hoes.

I'm sure when Mami died, behind those lifeless eyes Kyuube shed bitter tears of regret for losing his best earner.

[Dark Wing]

On another note the imagery in this episode was glorious! the part where Sayaka and Madoka are talking by the windmills while the dark buildings sat in the background really spoke of something ominous on the herizion. Also Homura twisting the top off her drink while she talked of Mami's death laying down the cold hard truth just gave me chills...

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by estdesoda

Actually, Homura never said anything that directly links the concept of "wish" and "bringing dead back" together. She only said that becoming a MG is as irreversable as having someone dead.

I heard this from raw:

「あの子は契約すべきじゃなかった。確かに私のミスよ。あなただけでなく、彼女もきちんと関心 しておくべき だったら。」
「なら…！」
「でも、責任にを認めて言わせてもらうわ。今と何でも、どうやっても償い切れないミスなの。死 んでしまった 人がかえて来ないと同じこと。一度魔法少女になってしまったら、もうの救われる望みなんでない 。あの契約は 、ただひとつの希望と引き換えに、すべてを諦めるでことだから。」

I do agree that she might be implying that you can neither wish for reviving dead people nor wish for someone to not be a MG anymore, through.

Yes, that what I was getting at. While she doesn't outright say it using that type of analogy could very well be because that she had attempted it before and that's why she knows it impossible. It far from certain but certainly an interesting possibility given that you know she mostly likely had a wish granted before she became a MG so she might know more limits of it than we do right now.

[fukarming]

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

Except that it has to be consistent, plot twists without sufficient groundwork done for it will seem out of place and stupid.

An example: K-ON Season 2. I throw a plot twist at the end of episode 24 where Yui is an insane murderer ala Higurashi and kills everyone after the concert.

I could come up with any sort of reason to support this but it would fail because there was no foreshadowing for it.



Currently with 5 episodes gone, the window of opportunity to set the the groundwork to support homura=evil, kyubei =good is going fast.

Glass half empty or half full? You said the window of opportunity is going fast, I said the window of opportunity is still open

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

You would need to explain away with support why Kyubei never explains anything on the negative side (Mami did) and pressures you to sign up for mahou shojoness (Until Mami stopped him). If he was a salesman, he would have been hauled to court for misrepresentation and consumer protection laws.

Additionally explainations would be required for why he never gets attacked other than by Homura, why he showed up to Mami at the point she was desperate, why he never warns Sayaka, why he appeared to Sayaka when he already said bye to them.

Kyubei don't care, but that doesn't make him evil. I completely disagree that if Kyubei were a salesman, he would be in court.

For example, a computer salesperson probably know what is the best computer for you after 30 sec talking to you, but if you insist on buying something way more powerful than you need, he will be happy to sell that to you and I don't think the salesperson break any rule. For a salesperson to be in court he needs to blatantly die or mislead the customer. I haven't seen Kyubei doing that yet.

Contracting MG is his job. As long as he don't cheat to get his way, you cannot say he is evil.

Kyubei is walking a fine line but he hasn't cross it yet.

I don't see why it needs to explain why only Homura attack Kyubei. Rather, why would Kyubei attacked by other MG?

Warn Sayaka about what? about Kyoko? either he choose not to (kyubei=evil), or he don't care (indifferent), or he has no power to stop Kyoko (Kyubei=good).

Kyubei probably sense Sayaka has a burning desire to become MG. Afterall it is a MG show, if telepathy is possible, Kyubei sensing emotion is not way out of line.

[estdesoda]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Well, what we're not knowing at the moment is "what's his gain"? Why does QB hound the girls for contracts?

People who believe that he's doing it for altruism and love and justice, please raise your hands.

It depends on your definition of "altruism, love and justice"

Look at Bokurano, and how many people have died in that anime, and how the ultimate goal was actually to prevent the destruction of universe, which cannot be achieved without that many of deaths.

Nope. I don't like Kyube. I would like to see Kyube Barbequed, and I think he is evil; but nevertheless, the possiblities are out there and around.