2012-12-01, 04:40 | Link #31261 |
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@chronotrig: Doesn't the very fact that several people basically figured it out after EP4 prove that it was adequately hinted?
I mean, Shkanon and pony theory were both being discussed soon after EP4 was released. Put those together and you pretty much have the answer. If there are hints that Shannon and Kanon are the same person, and hints that Shannon is the culprit, it's certainly possible to come to the conclusion of Shkanontrice by EP4. And I don't think most people would dispute that plenty of hints to both of those things do exist in the question arcs. |
2012-12-01, 10:58 | Link #31262 |
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I hate to admit it but I got into the series by watching the anime. At the end of the anime I was fairly certain Kanon was the culprit. When I went back through the novels I found some things that both supported Kanon but also rejected Kanon and after EP2 I did read some ideas from people who were discussing Shkanon after finishing EP2 and looked at the story that way and everything did seem to fit together nicely. Although after I read EP5 I just ignored that theory entirely and EP6-7 got me to think that it was Shannon and George with Kanon as somewhat of an accomplice.
However if Shkanon is false then looking back I could only accept Kanon as the culprit. If EP1 is done by anyone other than Kanon then it's a pretty cheap move on Ryukishi's part as that makes it so 6 people have an equal opportunity to be the culprit. Shannon would still be the best one of those 6 though as her body was never really seen. One thing that people might consider to be a hint though. In EP3 when Battler starts theorizing about one of the servants is the culprit Beatrice acts really childish with her retaliations and Battler even mentions she looks like she's getting really worried. Later Shannon and Kanon both seem to revive with Beatrice's revival which is a bit symbolic. I also found Battler considering alternate personalities to be another hint. Or course these are all really meta hints. I've been meaning to look back through EP1 and EP2 looking for Shkanon hints I just haven't had the time. In Short if it's not Shkanon then it has to be either Shannon or Kanon. |
2012-12-01, 11:19 | Link #31263 | |||
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I figured that Ryukishi did not have Erika focus too much on the two as it would give away too much rather that Erika goes after a false culprit or rather after Battler. Besides it seemed more like Bernkastel just wanted to screw around rather than try to find out the truth, so I see little reason why Erika could act against Bernkastel's wishes. Quote:
I figured that Erika focused on everyone in the parlor hence why she wanted the red to confirm that everyone is there with the world "everyone". Also Erika only focused on Natsuhi later on when she wanted to corner her. Quote:
In first four games, I figured that the motive of carrying out the epitaph to gain the prizes of the golden land was the motive that was consistently hinted at. Maria who was the closest to Beatrice also shared the belief that Beatrice was going to bring them all to the Golden Land. I do not think another motive has been hinted at that much. Besides in EP3 it is implied that Beatrice could so cruelly carry out the murders since they would revive anyway. Sure it requires Shannon/Kannon to be incredibly delusional but at least I could understand why they could put on such a cruel murder plot against the people they love. Last edited by goldendust; 2012-12-01 at 11:33. |
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2012-12-01, 12:02 | Link #31264 | |||
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So either that whole mechanism was absolutely pointless (in terms of dealing with red; of course it plays into the topic of "hidden/second personalities") or it served as a hint towards semantic cheating. Something that none of the other characters have, maybe aside Battler (from the perspective of EP4, since his identity had become somewhat questionable back then). Quote:
Basically, does Yasu turn into Beatrice whenever both of her "human" personas die (the famous "18<X<19") or is she literally "empty"? Doesn't really matter in terms of red, but it interests me concerning her portrayed personality. Personally I'd go for the former but maybe I've overlooked something. Quote:
a) EP1, Kanon's first appearance, at the end of his encounter with Battler. Something along the lines of 'he says something he couldn't hear himself' or 'wasn't directed at himself'. Of course this hint for Shkanon only makes sense once you consciously look for Shkanon, otherwise it's Kanon just having very faint feelings/emotions/thoughts. b) EP2 prologue, the obvious choice. c) the golden butterflies back in EP1 appeared after Shannon received the ring and at Kanon's 'rebellion' (and Shkanontrice's big entrance at the end of course); there are none for the other killings. Does it mean anything? Beats me, but Ryukishi could've easily shown them for the other killings as well, but then it wouldn't be possible for the reader to get the idea that maybe, possibly, Shkanon needs to be present for the 'magic' to happen; of course, towards the end of the game all bets are off anyway. My memory might lie to me though and the butterflies appeared even without Kanons and Shannons presence in EP1. d) Shkanon having knowledge of previous Gameboards in both EP3 and EP4, and that they generally hold a special role (even in EP2, nobody interacts as much with Beatrice). e) heck, once you start looking for them, even really small things come up... it's odd how only Shannon and Kanon are just quietly standing in the corner during Kinzo's Last Supper up until the end (and then there's Genji being himself... with the slight difference that he 'dies' in the scene anyway), especially considering Kanons rebellious nature... as if they were "puppets". Overall I find it hard to differentiate when something becomes a hint or just fits post-hoc into our Shkanon solution. Aside the pony-promise there were few strong leads. |
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2012-12-01, 12:12 | Link #31265 | |
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The Shkanon theory explains several things, but since it started 3 years before and was supported by many servants and probably Kinzo, it must have some cause unrelated to the crime. By itself, it can't be used as direct evidence that Yasu killed anyone. Parts of the pony theory explain Shannon's feelings for Battler and are almost undeniable in retrospect. But at this moment, we're having trouble truly understanding why those feelings would lead her to suddenly ritualistically murder most of the people she knows and loves. Even at its best, it does little to prove that Yasu killed anyone, but only raises the possibility. What we need is more than a hint, but some actual events on the gameboard linking Yasu to the murders. As Battler said in EP2, just being suspicious doesn't make you guilty.
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2012-12-01, 12:23 | Link #31266 | ||
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And again, if they had known about Shkanon in EP5, it would trivialized the wedding duel scene. All Erika would need to say is "Oh you just did that Shkanon thing in the closet didnt you? You are full of shit btw!" And Beatrice would have been blown to bits. The topic was beaten to death before and yeah everyone has their own pet theory. In my opinion, Kanon exists in that game as a separate individual. You could probably say that he exists in all the other episodes up till ep6 as well, do to the quantum nature of the catbox. It wasnt till the end of EP6, where Battler and Beatrice force Kanon to be part of someone else. You can explain the whole "number of people" in the island using ranges instead of a single number. The only problem with the interpretation is that its kinda unfair to force the number in EP5 to be 17 and then retroactively force every previous game to be 16. But thats probably part of the catbox's nature. It would kinda explain Erika's last reds as well. |
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2012-12-01, 12:49 | Link #31267 | |
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For Beatrice, I look to Maria. Now, in Legend and Turn we never see Beatrice harm Maria (there's still the issue of the explosion, but let's overlook that for now). In Legend it does appear that she killed her mother, but let's assume she believed that to be justifiable due to the way Rosa was treating her (which we can reasonably assume she did know about from info in ep4). In Alliance, Maria seems to be given a mercy killing of sorts. Maybe, maybe if you stretch for the "insane, but in a way that makes sense to them" argument, you can say that with everyone else dead it was necessary to poison Maria to go to the Golden Land (why, exactly, I don't know, but let's pretend). The problem the Shkanontrice culprit theory runs up against, assuming that like Will you seem to be trying to blame everything on a single culprit, is Banquet. Maria is killed early and in a brutal, primal manner, via strangulation. Why in the world is that happening? It doesn't fit at all. What would suddenly cause Beatrice to not only lay hands on Maria that early in her murder spree, but to kill her so brutally? And similar arguments can be made for nearly every character. Might Kyrie kill someone? Possibly. Would Kyrie kill everyone? No. What about Eva, or Rosa, or George? Again, maybe someone, but certainly not everyone. It runs up against the notion that there were multiple killers... but once you start going down that rabbit hole, things get way too difficult to prove. Which kill was which? Was there a fake murder game going on? Who was the real killer? How'd they get away with it? We can't just accept an Erika-style "oh yeah nobody moved while I was subduing them and cutting their heads off" argument.
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2012-12-01, 13:04 | Link #31268 | |
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2012-12-01, 13:12 | Link #31269 |
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Well doing a bit of logical thinking about the gameboards.
I'm going to try to ignore the red as much as possible and just look at physically possible. I'm also going to assume there was one murderer. Episode 1: The chain room could only have been done by 7 people. Rudolf, Kyrie, Krauss, Shannon, Gohda, Rosa and Kanon considering everyone else has an alibi for it. Those 7 people are actually constant themes of being the only 7 that could really do any of the murders. Well actually using the KNM's explanation Battler didn't examine Gohda, Rosa or Shannon so let's say it's only possible for 4 people. Episode 2: Natsuhi's room could only have been done by 5 people. Shannon, George, Gohda, Rosa and Kanon. George couldn't have caused the murders in the first game so let's remove him. So now we are left with 4 people to be the culprits still. Episode 3: Dr. Nanjo's murder. All of the dead were witnessed by battler except for the 5 servants and Kinzo so logically speaking any one of them could have committed the crime. That leaves 3 people left: Gohda, Kanon and Shannon. Episode 4: Gohda and Kumasawa's murder. From the position they were found in it would be extremely awkward for them to commit suicide. Now we are left with 2 people: Shannon and Kanon Then if you put red into play you suddenly wind up with only Kanon can do some things and only Shannon can do others and you are left with no one. Unless of course they happen to be the same person. I am of course ignoring all statements in red that say people are dead and I am only considering someone to be dead when Battler see's that they are dead. Also I notice something Will says after Claire states that's what it means to abandon ones self to fate. "......And that's the roulette you were talking about." I'm surprised I missed that before. But basically the solution Will found is confirmed to involve Kanon as the culprit of the first game. |
2012-12-01, 13:42 | Link #31270 | |||
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If topic was beaten to death before, I will digress but I thought it was an interesting observation and wondered if anyone else noticed. |
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2012-12-01, 14:08 | Link #31271 | |
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2012-12-01, 15:09 | Link #31273 | ||
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Its no really comparable either way. Had Bern/Erika known about Shkanon then they have would have probably acted differently. Would have taken precautions so that it was a non issue if it came up. I think Bern/Erika did figure it out eventually, as evidenced by Erika trying to force the number of people in the island to be 18 with her. It was just too late and Battler/Beatrice had wiped Kanon from existence by then. |
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2012-12-01, 16:22 | Link #31274 |
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I agree that the motive for any character killing everybody is weak and that there is no evidence on the gameboards that Yasu actually committed the crimes. If there was as much as a single hint towards who did them, we would solve it too easily.
But that's not to say there aren't hints about WHO Beatrice is. I think that this was never meant to be solvable entirely by looking at the gameboards or the Red Truth. The hints towards Shkannontrice are very, very plentiful in the EP1-4 meta scenes. "Ignoring the heart" doesn't just mean ignoring the motive, but it also covers ignoring the stuff that doesn't directly pertain to the murders... the 'heart' of the story. You couldn't treat this like a normal mystery in order to arrive at the answer confidently. "Without love, it can't be seen" --- you had to study Beatrice's character and actions in the meta scenes to reach this answer confidently. EP2, while one of the more unexciting ones, held a lot of secrets. Especially considering Beatrice's reaction to Kanon's & Shannon's statements of love during their death scenes. I know that doesn't help with the issue that Shkanon can't be directly tied into the murders on the gameboard but this is how I think we were supposed to study Umineko. |
2012-12-01, 22:22 | Link #31275 |
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Well on the subject of Shkanon clues I did go back and look through EP1 (skimm'd it mostly) and I did find a couple of interesting things that could hint towards Shkanon.
The first one is what was stated before the part where Kanon talks to himself and says "Even I." Alone that statement doesn't seem very significant but for some reason the Manga actually makes a huge deal out of that. If you read it as Shkanon this scene might suggest the Beatrice persona having feels for Battler still. The second notable scene is when Battler interrogates Kanon, Genji and Kumasawa. This scene is really weird in itself because the three do a complete 180 and Genji is really out of character. The VN didn't say how much of the conversation Battler heard but the Manga suggest that he heard all of it. Most of what Battler hears is about Kanon complaining that Shannon died. However as soon as Battler enters the three get taken completely off guard and Kanon refuses to look Battler in the eye. Then Kumasawa and Genji start talking for him and then both go all freaky like which is rather out of character for them all. (Maybe not Kumasawa). Now if we were to assume Kanon was the culprit then this scene doesn't make much sense. Why would Kanon be talking in private about how he hates how Beatrice killed Shannon if Kanon is the culprit? This scene however could be suggesting Kanon does have multiple personalities. As far as making Kanon the culprit of that gameboard. Lambdadelta at the end of EP4 suggests that Beatrice disproved that someone was hiding under the bed. True there are ways to work around the red but Lambda knows the solution and was pretty convinced that Battler's theory was disproven. So the only other way I see that locked room being done is with Kanon. It makes no sense for Lambda to be lying there. In short, EP1 seems to suggest that Kanon has multiple personalities. Also Shannon does say something kinda interesting when they are on the beach. She says that a young servant told her about scorpions repelling magic. Yasu anyone? |
2012-12-01, 22:59 | Link #31276 | |||
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2012-12-01, 23:45 | Link #31277 | |
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2012-12-02, 12:35 | Link #31279 | |
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#1: Ignoring the other heart The gameboards represent about half of the time spent on the Question Arcs. If it's ignoring the heart to skim over the meta scenes, isn't it also ignoring the heart to say there are no clues in the mystery scenes? After all, Yasu apparently enjoyed writing mysteries even more than she enjoyed the purely magic side she shared with Maria. Meta-scenes are definitely necessary, but can they really be our only clues to the answer? #2: What Beatrice is As I understand it, Beatrice represents the rule saying "the most plausible explanation presented wins". The witch theory "wins" only when people accept it, and they'd only accept magic if no other complete theory can (or will) be presented. For the meta-world, this is trivial, but on the gameboard, it's a pretty important point. Since the human Yasu can't actually jump out in front of everyone and do magic, she has to "present" her explanation of what Beatrice is indirectly. She can only control Beatrice by leaving clues pointing to parts of Beatrice's personality and powers. The point here is that accidents or the actions of entirely unrelated people can change "Beatrice's" personality. More importantly, since meta-Beatrice is obligated to show meta-Battler an explanation for everything with herself as the culprit, she also has to pretend everything that happens is according to her plan, or else the plan of someone with the power to oppose a witch. So we have to be very wary of what we learn about Beatrice in meta scenes.
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