2008-10-05, 09:43 | Link #1841 | |
Zero Requiem
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Join Date: Oct 2008
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2008-10-05, 09:50 | Link #1842 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2008
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Lelouch wanted two things from the beginning, right? you probably know this as well: A gentle world for Nunnally, and the identity of her mother's assassin. Correct me if I'm wrong though. |
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2008-10-05, 10:34 | Link #1844 | |
Unashamed Kalulu fan
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: NJ
Age: 45
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(Seriously, still when I watch the last few episodes, I'm thinking, 'Was there some assigned reading I was supposed to do before watching the end of the series?' )
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2008-10-05, 11:43 | Link #1845 | |||
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Join Date: Aug 2008
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"See, he was allegedly inserted to appeal to this demographic in the first place and Taniguchi didn't even originally like the character for several drafts of the same story. It just feels shallow and like for the most part he was placed in for that purpose." "I will NOT stand by and let you insult homosexuals!" "...what." This has nothing to do with him being involved in yaoi stuff, it has plenty to do with that being seemingly his only purpose before he needed to progress the plot. If Taniguchi didn't even think him to be that necessary for most of the product and only gave him a purpose later in the last 4 episodes, why the hell should we suddenly accept it because of a good death scene with some beautiful Hitomi music? That's a good death scene, not a good character. |
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2008-10-05, 13:50 | Link #1846 | |||
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Join Date: Nov 2006
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As for the significance of Rolo's contributions, who else sacrificed himself or herself to defend Lelouch at his most vulnerable moment? Kallen? (nearly, but she did not trust Lelouch enough to understand that he lied to protect her) Suzaku? Euphemia? Nunnally? How about none of the above? Rolo's act of sacrifice is significant because it was a sacrifice signifying his wishes to be personally accepted as a real brother, and he went the furthest among all the characters in CG in search of happiness- he gave up his whole life for 3 seconds of bliss. There are not many characters in CG who would go that far. The closest character who would go that far would be Shirley. However, the difference between Rolo and Shirley is that Rolo attempted to rescue Lelouch knowing that he would die in the process; while Shirley attempted to aid Lelouch not knowing that she would die. That itself made Rolo's sacrifice more noble, in that he accepted the price of having to give up his life for happiness. So no, there are not 'plenty' of characters in CG whose contributions are impactful enough to sway Lelouch from vengence to buiding a better tomorrow. To be impactful a contribution has to fulfil two criteria: it has to be personally meaningful to Lelouch, and it has to illustrate that a human would go really really far for happiness. Rolo's sacrifice did fulfil these criteria, so did Shirley's. But to say that these type of sacrifices are 'common' and 'dispensable' would be a disgrace to the word 'sacrifice'. And wow, Sol actually said there were dozens of them. Lists them. All 12 of them. Quote:
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Ah, and I think I saw your stagnant reasoning of 'because a fictional character is dispensable, his/her contributions do not add to the plot' nonsense again. Well guess what, batman's contributions to the plot in Dark Knight is meaningless too since he can be replaced by Superman! Last edited by Rydrallen; 2008-10-05 at 14:02. |
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2008-10-05, 14:49 | Link #1847 | ||||||
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Join Date: Aug 2008
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Comparing characters who died vs. who knew they were going to die is just plain idiotic. At a moments notice half the characters in the show could've died but they all served their cause for their own purposes. Lelouch isn't blind to that: that's why he acknowledges everyone when he thinks back on it. Not just people who served him. Quote:
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Listen to yourself: Rolo was meaningful because he died? So if I had a red-shirt nameless goon take a bullet for Lelouch, would that net him his own thread and 5 minute death scene too? Quote:
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You just basically said Rolo is the main character going by that line of logic. |
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2008-10-05, 23:38 | Link #1848 | |
Spontaneous Retirement.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: United States
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I agree with what you said there, but I don't know much about the rest.. I read the top, skimmed the middle, and read the bottom. Anyways, can we call it a cease-fire for the time being? I really don't like coming on here and checking the forums and looking at 'recently posted' and seeing Rolo's thread and expecting a huge fight to be on there. It was entertaining for a while, but come on.. Enough is enough. ('Probably said that one before too..) It's really not hard to stop a huge debate, so, both of you need to just give a post full of your thoughts and reasons and explanations, then nicely critque both of them without starting something again. If you do, just take it to PM. Or, just come up with a good peace treaty because this thread needs to die already. Rolo isn't a 'main' character (Whatever that means anymore. Appearently people who didn't even do much are 'main characters' now..)And he's been dead for a while. Drop it. Now, unless someone finds something geniunely interesting/new about him, we really shouldn't be talking on here, should we? I mean, yeah, it's your right to keep talking and you can still do that, but seriously, isn't it kind of stressful knowing when you get home you'll have to reply to some huge argument? Oh well. If you enjoy it, by all means continue. /Offtopic.
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2008-10-05, 23:57 | Link #1849 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2008
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Quote wars might be a rough method to sift the best points of an argument. But occasionally, you can find a gold nugget of insight that leads both sides closer to the truth . Occasionally... |
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2008-10-06, 00:46 | Link #1850 | |||
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Join Date: Nov 2006
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There are many who put their lives on the line. All the black knights in season 1 did that in R1. Funny how all their sacrifices on the battle field did not sway Lelouch one bit? His fights remained revolving around Nunnally until R2, when he realized the future that humanity wanted. Why? Because the demise of soldier P1, P9, or P3 meant little for Lelouch as they were individuals who sacrificed themselves for their own cause (liberating Japan), and these were never personally meaningful to Lelouch to warrant any reflection on his part. Your attempt to generalize every sacrifices in the whole world to trivialize the impact of Rolo's personal sacrifice is futile at best. Quote:
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Before the demise of Rolo, Lelouch was too engrossed in his own hatred for Rolo that he never see the driving force behind all of Rolo's actions- that is, to seek happiness through his acceptance as a family member; Rolo's demise as a result of him protecting Lelouch in his weakest moment dissipated those hatred and allowed Lelouch to finally see 'how far a human can go in search of happiness'. There may be others who sacrificed their lives for a better tomorrow prior to Rolo, but those sacrifices were never personally impactful enough to change Lelouch's personal judgement on humanity. |
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2008-10-06, 01:08 | Link #1851 | ||||||||
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Join Date: Aug 2008
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Let me start off by saying, Worrior, that I agree with you completely: it's why I stopped arguing with Krimzon. Who I rather like. But Ry is just saying flat out WRONG and patronizing things at this point and it's irritating to the extent that I'm almost convinced they're trolling.
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This was a decision they came to together towards humanity as a whole, not just people they were on a first name basis with. For example, Lelouch's primary concern with Damocles is that it will turn humanity into a symbol, not that it will police his friends in particular. They're part of the major whole that he cares about. Lelouch stops caring about individual people so much as he does the aggregate. Quote:
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2008-10-06, 05:26 | Link #1852 | ||||||
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Join Date: Nov 2006
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It was through the personal sacrifices of Rolo that enabled Lelouch to see the wants of humanity as a whole. He wouldn't have cared about the world if all he saw were people whom he did not even know or cared for sacrificing themselves for their own causes. Quote:
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Why do you think Lelouch suddenly cared for the collective wants of humanity that he was indifferent to for so long? Because Rolo's sacrifice provided him with the perfect example of how hard a human would strive to acquire bliss. And the key word is Rolo is someone who can relates to Lelouch personally, and that itself made the impact all the more significant for Lelouch. There are thousands of sacrifices made by unknown humans every day for their own causes or for their loved ones, however all of these would merely be statistics in the eyes of an observer. Observing these sacrifices from a distance would hardly drive Lelouch towards comprehending the struggles of humanity in search of happiness. On the other hand, getting personally involved in it would, as in the case of Rolo's sacrifice. Last edited by Rydrallen; 2008-10-06 at 06:00. |
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2008-10-06, 11:11 | Link #1853 | |||||||
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Join Date: Aug 2008
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But since we're repeating our points because one can't convince the other in the first place, how about we wrap things up? |
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