2009-09-23, 11:57 | Link #1941 | ||
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Join Date: Jul 2009
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2009-09-23, 12:15 | Link #1942 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
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I'm quite certain that I have heard the word used for the same position before, I think they use it. |
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2009-09-23, 12:48 | Link #1943 | ||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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As I've said, disbelief is easy. You simply choose not to believe. It requires zero effort. Wholehearted belief, on the other hand, is immensely difficult, requiring a level of commitment that few members here seem to appreciate. We are unfortunate in this forum because we are yet to have someone of faith come up to explain why he believes. We are yet to have someone who has studied his religion closely come up to tell us why his beliefs are not trivial. Thus we have this imbalance, where it seems as though an atheist outlook is the only reasonable way to approach life. Live long enough, meet enough people, and you begin to realise that is a load of bullshit. Anyone who is worth meeting and learning from believes something. It is what motivates him, an idealism born either from religious faith or secular ideology. It doesn't matter where he stands in the spectrum. What matters is the conviction that drives him. What I especially dislike is this tendency to deny religion simply because it appears "cool" to do so. It smacks of misplaced pride because it doesn't take much to show that many of these so-called "atheists" have not carefully considered what it means to lead an existence without a grand purpose. Do they fully understand what such a position entails? Do they realise that it means taking full responsibility for each and every one of their actions? That, if they make mistake, there is no one to blame but themselves? There is no God. There is no excuse. What does it mean to take full responsibility for your thought and actions? I see little of such commitment coming from the self-professed atheists of this board. It's one thing to call people of faith deluded. It's quite another thing to find a productive alternative to that delusion, especially if we already start from the premise that there are things that we would never know. Anything we choose to believe is already potentially a delusion, but so what? It is better to have a delusion that motivates us to be more than we can be, than to have none at all. Quote:
Camus' views on existentialism is particularly interesting, especially his argument for the meaning of life in the absence of God: Camus is interested in Sisyphus' thoughts when marching down the mountain, to start anew. This is the truly tragic moment, when the hero becomes conscious of his wretched condition. He does not have hope, but "[t]here is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn". Acknowledging the truth will conquer it; Sisyphus, just like the absurd man, keeps pushing.In his view, life is absurd. We have no hope of salvation, and yet we continue pushing. And ironically enough, it is through that struggle that we find meaning. That, in short, is the tragedy of the human condition. That, in short, also describes the nobility of the human spirit. We insist on trying even when there is little prospect of success. Consider any scientific endeavour that starts from a bare-bones hypothesis. At this point, we don't even know if the hypothesis will hold, or whether the subsequent experiments we doggedly conduct will prove anything useful. And yet we persist. Why? Because the act of questioning is in itself a worthwhile pursuit. The pursuit of knowledge is an end in itself, the very definition of what it means to be human: the need to know. Therefore, to go through life with apathy is, to me, simply unacceptable. Such individuals is a waste of space and resources, a waste of the precious gift of life. Even the lowest man yearns to be something more, and yet we have perfectly capable people choosing apathy instead? A travesty! Everyone believes something. It's only a matter of whether he is able to articulate it and, more importantly, whether he is willing to make the effort to commit to his beliefs. ======= My personal ethics, on the other hand, are heavily influenced by Confucian thought, starting very simply from the golden rule of reciprocity: "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." But Confucian ethics is more than just a moral guide. Understood completely, it describes an entire way of life. It stems from the basic understanding that we all owe a duty to one another: to yourself, to your family, to your state and ultimately to the "Way". A leader is responsible for his people as much as his people are responsible to their leader. Before you can govern a country, you must first govern a family. Before you can govern a family, you must first govern yourself. To govern yourself, study. Learn from the examples of others, learn from history. Identify your bad habits and take active steps to eliminate them. Why is any of this important? Confucius was, quite possibly, China's first agnostic thinker. He doesn't outright deny the possibility of a higher power, but hinted that its existence (or non-existence) is irrelevant to the concerns of our present lives. We have enough problems, as it were, to occupy us for our entire lifetimes — let's think about the problems of the next life, if there is one, when we come to it. What is the "Way" as Confucius understood it? This he never elaborated, but it can be extrapolated. It's about living in harmony with your community, with your environment. It's about giving back as much as you are given. It is a way of life that requires total commitment, to be beholden to others as much as they are beholden to you. In short, it is not an easy life to lead. It requires effort. But anything that is worth doing is worth doing well. If it doesn't take effort then, quite simply, it's not a worthwhile achievement. |
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2009-09-23, 13:05 | Link #1944 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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Hmmmm, atheism does NOT require "zero effort" any more than being part of any spiritual faith. Its a false assertion to say disbelief is easy. It took me decades of study and thinking to arrive at the position I'm in now. It would have been much easier to just splash around in my safety pen of the religion I was raised in.
I agree that far too many people don't *really* think about their location on the religious/philosophical map and why they're there. Part of the purpose of this thread is to get people thinking about WHY they believe what they do. Does your religion explain the universe to you or does it just give you a checklist on how to live daily life? Or both? On a separate note: altruism has been shown to be a survival trait -- its enlightened self-interest. You do something for the community and the odds are they'll help you when you need it. A number of species that depend on social groups exhibit this trait. Some aspects of religion are universal in that each documents or encodes this altruism. Other aspects of religion concern trying to make sense of a universe in a pre-science mode (wow... something really powerful must make that lightning bolt. Anything that moves must have intent because I have intent, etc). Hierarchical aspects of some religions seem to spring from some humans wanting to have a "special channel to the gods" so they can direct daily life. Each aspect is really separate but it gets difficult discussing religion because all have been conflated into a big ball of Katamari. For me... at the present time - science explains my universe and how it works, I can change my working model as new data arrives but the methodology has proven utterly sound. zen buddhism helps inform me on how to live daily life though its interlaced with a code of chivalry (how to treat other people). Animism (e.g. in the form of Shinto or Keltic folk beliefs) provide a colorful descriptive way of recognizing and respecting the motive forces in the universe. I don't actually think dust devils are "alive" or "sentient", for example, but they're an example of complexity arising from simplicity. I don't actually believe in "blue smoke", pixies, or goblins but they're an evocative way of describing various phenomena. I'm an example of complexity arising from simplicity myself - as transient as the dust devils in some ways.
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Last edited by Vexx; 2009-09-23 at 13:17. |
2009-09-23, 13:11 | Link #1945 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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If atheism merely involved not believing in supernatural powers, then it's hardly a worthwhile philosophical position to take. Having rejected the God hypothesis, what is the alternative? If one cannot provide an alternative, then why reject God? That, I argue, is the first question that any aspiring atheist should ask. Rejection is easy. But what comes after the rejection? That is for each and every non-believer to ask himself. The answer can come only from within and not from others. |
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2009-09-23, 13:21 | Link #1946 | |
Knowledge is the solution
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 39
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Because when we think back to it, such a conclusion is just a rationalisation of our most basic gregarious instincts. It's just that we as intelligent beings like to make a fuzz (read: religion) out of something so simple.
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2009-09-23, 13:26 | Link #1947 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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Confucius is most certainly not the first to adopt such an agnostic position, but he is the thinker who speaks most directly to my heart, because I come from the same culture. That is, quite simply, the way it is — an accident of birth. By this, I mean no disrespect to early Greek philosophers and all the Western thinkers who have continued that tradition of thought. I simply do not relate to them the way I do with my own heritage, that's all. |
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2009-09-23, 13:40 | Link #1949 |
Socially Inept
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Retracing my steps.....
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I've spent a long time thinking about this over the course of my life to simply come to the conclusion that I'm an "Agnostic Deist". I believe there is some kind of watchmaker out there (god/allah/insert diety) but that he/she doesn't move the hands of said watch. I'm content to find out just who this watchmaker is after I die.
I don't actively practice any religion anymore but I do feel that I live a pretty spiritual existence, I just don't feel the need to do so within a structured group. My favorite way of putting it is that I try my best to tend to my own garden.
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2009-09-23, 13:48 | Link #1950 |
Banned
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I find it ridiculous for people to expect the creator to interfere with their lives all the time. This can make God only two things. Someone who burges in our lives even when we don't want too or someone we all worship because we are too stupid to solve our problems by ourselves. If God exists, he runs the universe. He doesn't mess with the rules he made himself.
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2009-09-23, 16:13 | Link #1951 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 42
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2009-09-23, 16:25 | Link #1952 |
Knowledge is the solution
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 39
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... to be truthful I guess I am included there given that all of my family is atheist and only assisted to religious rites because of social image. Then again my parents always encouraged self introspection on me so I guess its compensated. Yay secular environments.
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2009-09-23, 17:10 | Link #1953 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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2009-09-23, 17:26 | Link #1954 | |
カカシ
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Except it has a logic to it, and it's more sensible than believing in supernatural powers. For me it's more like acceptance. It would be nice if there was a God, humans were his children, in turn giving us a grand purpose in life. But in the end we will probably have to settle with merely "being". |
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2009-09-23, 21:12 | Link #1955 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
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2009-09-23, 22:06 | Link #1957 |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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And?...
TLR and Vexx make very good points. The choice is not as important as the reason. It is silly to believe in something mindlessly, or to profess that you believe in something without ever giving thought to it. Coming in here and stating your affiliation does little to serve any point of conversation.
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2009-09-23, 22:17 | Link #1958 | |
廉頗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 34
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I'm not sure it has anything to do with age, as has been brought up multiple times. I'm 20 but at the age of 17 I had already read Polkinghorne, Nietzsche, Camus, Dawkins, Jung, O'Malley, etc. I had an understanding of the anthropic principle, Ockham's Razor, and had a fairly high-end Catholic education and the knowledge of Christianity that goes with it. I can respect a thinking theist who objectively weighs the evidence and have no respect for blind atheists. What more will my age bring? What revelations are to come that could somehow shake this stance? And, most importantly, why must there be reason behind life? I simply do not understand this viewpoint. Is the vast, beautiful world we live on, not enough by itself? |
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2009-09-23, 22:32 | Link #1959 | ||||||||||
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Last edited by Cipher; 2009-09-23 at 23:09. |
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not a debate, philosophy, religion |
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