Magic and Technology of MGLN

[felix]

Aero-chan I still don't get what's the point.

[Aaron008R]

Originally Posted by Cats

Aero-chan I still don't get what's the point.

It's a little awkward addressing males with the suffix, -chan. And I think Chaos was pretty traumatized by Erio, another forum member calling him that.

EDIT: W-wait, who's Aero-chan? A and K are pretty much on opposite sides of the keyboard. That can't possibly be me can it?

[Kha]

Originally Posted by Aaron008R

You were calling Keroko Kero-chan a few posts back.

Now that makes Chaos, Kha and Keroko the three forum memberswho were addressed with -chan.

UH... No. Kero-chan was a char from CCS, and was the Cardcaptor's tsukaima...

But honestly Chaos, WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?!

[raidou]

You were calling Keroko Kero-chan a few posts back.

Now that makes Chaos, Kha and Keroko the three forum memberswho were addressed with -chan.

......wait , so you saying someone addressed Kha with '-chan' before ?
I loled at the sound of that although the spelling is not right

[felix]

Aaron ~ I'm just playing with you.
_______
Back on topic, why don't familiars or Yuuno materialise weapons or barrier-vests. Or is Yuuno's ferret-form his barier defence.
(well he does look invincible when munching Ayu's fish-biscuit food)

And back in season 1 he when Nanoha and Fate blew the gem ~ around episode 6 I think.
The resulting explosion didn't seem to have any effect on Yuuno, even though he was basically naked.

[Aaron008R]

Originally Posted by Cats

Aaron ~ I'm just playing with you.

Duly noted, Cats-san.

_______
Back on topic, why don't familiars or Yuuno materialise weapons or barrier-vests. Or is Yuuno's ferret-form his barier defence.
(well he does look invincible when munching Ayu's fish-biscuit food)

And back in season 1 he when Nanoha and Fate blew the gem ~ around episode 6 I think.
The resulting explosion didn't seem to have any effect on Yuuno, even though he was basically naked.

I'm going ahead with the assumption that he has a BJ that is worn and not henshined into using devices. TSAB also have a gamut of mages that simply wears their BJ's.

All in all, I'm not too sure. But as far as I know, the presence of a Barrier Jacket is not dependent upon a device, unless the variants Nanoha and some others are taken into consideration.

[raidou]

Originally Posted by Cats

Aaron ~ I'm just playing with you.
_______
Back on topic, why don't familiars or Yuuno materialise weapons or barrier-vests. Or is Yuuno's ferret-form his barier defence.
(well he does look invincible when munching Ayu's fish-biscuit food)

And back in season 1 he when Nanoha and Fate blew the gem ~ around episode 6 I think.
The resulting explosion didn't seem to have any effect on Yuuno, even though he was basically naked.

Yuuno is able to cast spell in his ferret form so I assumed that he might be able to switch into his BJ while in ferret form.

During that explosion it could be his BJ or he might casted barrier just not shown.Also i dont think device is really connected to the presence of BJ since Fate was wearing her BJ a few times in season 1 with Bardiche in mode form (or nanoha in this season)

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Wait... This just sink in...

KERO-CHAN?!

Yes... imagine my surprise when I saw this when I came back from the gym.

Speaking of which, dammit, Kha! Work on your timing! Starting to post just before I head to the gym... *grumble grumble*

Anyhoo, back to Chaos.

Originally Posted by Aaron008R

Three possible answers and two relative questions. You may take your pick.

I'll handle them all, of course.

Originally Posted by Aaron008R

I was under the impression that the clashing S-ranked attacks far surpassed the pre-set parameters of the training room and caused a major breakdown in the equipment, which leads to explosion.

Should that matter? If we follow your logic, they were using 'non-physical' attacks, which according to you, does not harm physical objects. Obviously, this wasn't so.

Originally Posted by Aaron008R

When did they say that physical damage are prohibited in the match? Hayate said non-lethal and not non-physical. Signum, Vita and the others wouldn't fit in, otherwise.

I thought using non-physical attacks were easier then pulling punches? Guess its easier to pull punches after all.

Originally Posted by Aaron008R

It was just a case of the producers not thinking as far ahead as us.

Or we're turning a fly into an ellephant.

Originally Posted by Aaron008R

We could always bring up the issue of why did the water gushed upward when Nanoha fired a purely magic damage Starlight Breaker on Fate during S1?

Cause it delivered physical damage?

Originally Posted by Aaron008R

Why wasn't there a scratch on Uminari City after Reinforce 1 fired off her Starlight Breaker?

So, in laymens terms, the only problem rests with the Starlight Breaker that Reinforce 1 fired, yes? Since all the other ones fired by Nanoha do seem to do physical damage (The wacky thing is that there still is a crapload of debris flying around even though all the buildings keep standing. God I hate the animators for doing that >_<).

Possible explanation? The barrier that te Lieze twins ut up witheld any damage from occuring. After the starlight breaker was fired, that field was destroyed, leaving only Reinforce's field, and the city was prone to damage.

Originally Posted by Kha

Actually, it was my idea, parallel'd from D&D's Non-lethal damage crossed with the "Mana Burn" spell from the Warcraft universe. Basically, what it means is "degree of exhaustion dealt to the mage by the amount of disruption made to the mana circuit as well as the overall reduction of the mage's mana pool." I admit magical damage was rather vague, so let's tighten it up: Non-lethal magic damage (assumed to be able to burn mana rather than flesh) and lethal magic damage (definitely burns flesh). Being able to switch in between the two to power one's spell is the magical equivalent to pulling one's punches, which also gives rise to Lethal physical damage and Non-lethal physical damage. There is too little to run on in canon to debate what kind of mana goes into non-lethal magical (NLM) damage, but we do know that it exhausts the mage's mana reserves, but leaves no bruises or scars, though it might burn or melt the barrier jacket or knight armor, which is magical.

This selective damage hints at what happens within the mage when hit by a non-lethal magical attack (NLMA), which will be covered now.

It was debated and settled earlier that an AMF does disrupt the mana circuit outside of the Linker Core. But we don't see Erio collapsing from it (The Nanohaverse OC Kha does, but that's because his Linker Core was different) for his mana store is within the dense Linker. Maybe there was a little discomfort as the extra-Core circuits lost power, but with adrenaline pumping, that small disturbance tends to be overlooked. Now let's say we shoot him with 1% of Nanoha's "rubber bullet" variation of Crossfire and we hit him at the spot where Teana was hit, smack at the heart. My expectation is he'll feel somewhat breathless, with some pain. Medically called "Phantom Pain", this pain arises as the body tells him that his magic circuit was under attack. We know that the NLMA attacks magical creations selectively over physical bodies, and so my link is here is that, like how NLMA destroys BJ/KA, it 'destroys' the magical circuit of a Mage.

Hit him with the full attack now. What happens? I expect Erio to feel so much pain that he passes out from it, his magic circuit is in total disarray, but his body remains visibly unharmed.

I prefer to call it 'non-physical' rather then 'non-lethal', as I can deliver a hefty amount of non-lethal damage on people using just two hands, but they'll definetely feel it afterwards. See it, too.

But why bother with the non-physical damage at all (which is hardly suported by canon) instead of the barrier jacket protection theory I posted here which is A: a lot more suported by canon and B: explains most of the who's and why's.

Originally Posted by Kha

The "bruises" we see in the manga excerpt are really just dust from the collapsed training room. Contrast Teana after Nanoha's Crossfire attacks, and after the Signum punch (no sir ree, she HAD to prove she wasn't a submissive uke). Now that's a perfect example of the true effects of magical damage versus physical damage.

So how come the training room collapsed at all when the damage was supposed to be affecting only the mana? It has to have affected physical material, otherwise the training room wouldn't have collapsed. If it can break metal, it can hurt skin.

[Aaron008R]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Yes... imagine my surprise when I saw this when I came back from the gym.

Speaking of which, dammit, Kha! Work on your timing! Starting to post just before I head to the gym... *grumble grumble*

Anyhoo, back to Chaos.



I'll handle them all, of course.

Why, thank you.

Should that matter? If we follow your logic, they were using 'non-physical' attacks, which according to you, does not harm physical objects. Obviously, this wasn't so.

So how come the training room collapsed at all when the damage was supposed to be affecting only the mana? It has to have affected physical material, otherwise the training room wouldn't have collapsed. If it can break metal, it can hurt skin.

I meant that there's a pre-set parameters for the barrier around the interior of the training facility in order to keep both physical and magical damage strictly inside.

I thought using non-physical attacks were easier then pulling punches? Guess its easier to pull punches after all.

Yeah. I guess it was just a slip of your judgment that you suddenly said that physical attacks were forbidden.

Or we're turning a fly into an ellephant.

Nice analogy.

Cause it delivered physical damage?

I blame the animators for including the EPICness factor of the attack.

So, in laymens terms, the only problem rests with the Starlight Breaker that Reinforce 1 fired, yes? Since all the other ones fired by Nanoha do seem to do physical damage (The wacky thing is that there still is a crapload of debris flying around even though all the buildings keep standing. God I hate the animators for doing that >_<).

I'm betting that a producer would either be speechless or laughing his/her ass off at how we're trying to figure out their machinations.

But why bother with the non-physical damage at all (which is hardly suported by canon) instead of the barrier jacket protection theory I posted here which is A: a lot more suported by canon and B: explains most of the who's and why's.

It's much more complicated but fun if we include BOTH.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Yes... imagine my surprise when I saw this when I came back from the gym.

Speaking of which, dammit, Kha! Work on your timing! Starting to post just before I head to the gym... *grumble grumble*

Anyhoo, back to Chaos.

I don't wanna argue anymore

I've been doing for the whole afternoon

...Kha, you take over or something...

This is your speciality after all.

[Kha]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

I don't wanna argue anymore

I've been doing for the whole afternoon

...Kha, you take over or something...

This is your speciality after all.

(Shouts from OC Thread)

BUT IT'S MORE FUN OVER HERE-Here-here-here-here......

[Meophist]

Wow, it's a little hard believing you guys. Well, at the very least we've managed to transfer over the magic and tech discussion over here.

In any case, I do remember the magical and physical damage being brought up quite some time ago. Magical damage, if I remember correctly, does not cause injury but can cause alot of pain. Mages can change their spells for how much physical and magical damage, but how much change they can do depends on the amount of control they have over their spells.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Meophist

Wow, it's a little hard believing you guys. Well, at the very least we've managed to transfer over the magic and tech discussion over here.

In any case, I do remember the magical and physical damage being brought up quite some time ago. Magical damage, if I remember correctly, does not cause injury but can cause alot of pain. Mages can change their spells for how much physical and magical damage, but how much change they can do depends on the amount of control they have over their spells.

Must have missed that debate, or I would have tackled it then as I tackled it now. I still don't buy it.

Magical damage and physical damage have the same result: injury. I point at the drones once more, they can't feel pain, they're torn apart. The difference? Magical damage is brought from a source that is purely magical in nature, and therefore succeptible to AMF (such as Nanoha's attacks) while physical ones are created with the help of magic.

[Meophist]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Must have missed that debate, or I would have tackled it then as I tackled it now. I still don't buy it.

Magical damage and physical damage have the same result: injury. I point at the drones once more, they can't feel pain, they're torn apart. The difference? Magical damage is brought from a source that is purely magical in nature, and therefore succeptible to AMF (such as Nanoha's attacks) while physical ones are created with the help of magic.

It's rather different than that. Nanoha's magic deals both magical and physical damage, although she can control the extent of both. Regardless of the attack dealing magical or physical damage, they are both affected by AMF. Attacks that use physical components(Vita's ball attack) are less affected by AMF.

I'd say Divine Buster is about 50% magical and 50% physical normally. She will usually control this for it to deal more magical damage and less physical damage if she does not want to injure her opponent.

Fate's scythe/haken forms are probably more around 15% magical and 85% physical normally, and hence its tendancy to cause injury. A ratio like this would be harder to make mostly magical, although a very skilled mage should be able to do it.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Meophist

It's rather different than that. Nanoha's magic deals both magical and physical damage, although she can control the extent of both. Regardless of the attack dealing magical or physical damage, they are both affected by AMF. Attacks that use physical components(Vita's ball attack) are less affected by AMF.

I'd say Divine Buster is about 50% magical and 50% physical normally. She will usually control this for it to deal more magical damage and less physical damage if she does not want to injure her opponent.

Fate's scythe/haken forms are probably more around 15% magical and 85% physical normally, and hence its tendancy to cause injury. A ratio like this would be harder to make mostly magical, although a very skilled mage should be able to do it.

I disagree, but you misunderstood my meaning. When I say 'magical damage' I mean an attack like Nanoha's Divine Buster, Fate's Photon Lancer etc. etc. attacks that are purely a form of magical energy. The trouble however, and that is the misunderstanding, is that these attacks still deal physical damage. As in, they hurt, rupture the skin, can tear you apart.

So technically, whenever I say magical damage, I mean physical damage from a magical source.

Now onto what I disagree upon (and what I have been arguing these last few hours) is the entire 'magic damage does not have to cause wounds but still causes pain' Now, I'm going to be lazy and copy an earlier post of mine, which looks at the source of this discussion, and sheds a new light:

If I recall, this 'physical damage/soul damage' thing started after Teana survived two direct hits from Nanoha, seemingly without even single scrath on her body. This sparked discussion because there was absolutely no damage to be seen, this is also when people dragged up the other incidents where this happened and decided to explain it by going with the soul/spirit/linker whatever you want to call it damage. The only reason this started was to explain why people could survive direct hits without a scratch.

Everyone still with me so far? Good, let's continue.

Now, let me ask you, how much evidence do we have that this so called 'non-physical damage' exists? None. 'But Keroko, look at Fate! Look at Teana! They survived direct hits from powerfull beam blasts without a scratch! It can't be physical damage!' Why not? During A's Nanoha and Fate get tossed through buildings regularely, and get out without a scratch. Are you saying that getting tossed through a building is 'non-physical damage' as well? No, obviously that is physical damage, and yet both Nanoha and Fate get up, clutch a random body part in pain and get back to fighting, despite the fact that there is not a single surface wound.

So we've established that beams deliver physical damage, purely because there is no evidence stating otherwise. So how do we explain that people keep getting hit and comming out without a scratch? Well, instead of looking at the ofensive and start theorycrafting, let's look at it's direct oposite: Defense. There are many types of defense, and most are outwardly defending the blow before it hits the body. Shields, fields, barriers, we've been through them, and nobody used them during the incidents mentioned. But they still have one more layer of defense, one that is a lot less dramatic, yet we can't imagine our doom-girls without them: Barrier jackets. Is it not possible for a barrier jacket to nullify, or at least extremely reduce, the impact of a beam of destruction? We know they are defensive material, it has been mentioned multiple times. So why do we ignore them as if they don't exist? Why can't it be possible that it is not the beam, but the defense in question that makes sure people don't get a single scratch?

Think about it. It makes more sense, and has a lot less unproven theories in it.

[felix]

Originally Posted by raidou

During that explosion it could be his BJ or he might casted barrier just not shown.Also i dont think device is really connected to the presence of BJ since Fate was wearing her BJ a few times in season 1 with Bardiche in mode form (or nanoha in this season)

I just realised he's wearing fur.
It's pretty thick too~ Yuuno's nothing but skin and bones

And so are all the other familiars.

Originally Posted by Keroko

So how come the training room collapsed at all when the damage was supposed to be affecting only the mana? It has to have affected physical material, otherwise the training room wouldn't have collapsed. If it can break metal, it can hurt skin.

What training room.
If you mean the explosion in episode 8 then Teana was in mid air, in what should have been virtual-thin-air.

Originally Posted by Meophist

In any case, I do remember the magical and physical damage being brought up quite some time ago. Magical damage, if I remember correctly, does not cause injury but can cause alot of pain. Mages can change their spells for how much physical and magical damage, but how much change they can do depends on the amount of control they have over their spells.

Hmm.. this has been bugging me. But have we ever seen pure magic in a non-attack form?!
My guess is that magic in this show is more a term used to describe how they are able to manifest a seamlessly random unknown form of energy (call it mana what you will) to a physically recognizable form. Hence Yuuno's words that Nanoha should imagine the armor and weapon in season 1.

So in other words it's not magic as in spells as with RPG games but spacial-manipulation and manifestation.

Niven's Law
Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.

_________________________
Also,
Regarding the Yuuno, Familiars etc. can cast spells without devices.
-Theory to make the impossible possible-

I've been thinking, has Yuuno cast a spell without a magic circle?!
I'm not sure if he has but if he hasn't then we have a world of possibilities.

Presumably he's not casting without a device because he's creating a temporary device (the casting-circle)

Ability properties...
The ability to create a temporary device may be an inherited alien skill and something that can be familiars can be imbued with, not something that normal humans can do. Hence why Yuuno told Nanoha: "we'll be able to communicate as long as you have raging heart" in season 1 and didn't just teach her the trick. If we think about it he thought it to her but she still needed the device. (experience aside, Nanoha has way more potential then Yuuno)

Barrier Defence Circle Explanation...
If the barrier defence, where a circle is created, is added in then the explanation of it's working is: to repel a attack the mage creates a secondary device (the circle) and using the added math-potential (as was described for the linker core) calculates the opposition spell for the force applied by the enemy.

Super-Spells & Unique Circles Explanation...
If the Mega-Spells are added to the equation then the explanation for them is: to create hi-level spell spacial-manipulation/hi-density-cast the caster needs to first increase his own control level, by creating addition processing power thus (s)he creates specialized circles. The added processing power is used to create the large scale spell. Note the unique looking circles take longer to make, time in which you might get killed, and also some control-circles require the caster to stay still. ( note: Yuuno's )

I haven't thought much about it, namely at proof or counters but I think it explains more pieces in the show then the Linker-Core-Math theory~ So be gentle and flame and bash as hard as you can...

[Meophist]

The physical/magical talk happened long before that episode.

In any case, yes, the defense is powerful. The barrier jackets are strong enough to make terrain-based damage(getting hit into a wall or something) cause no actual injury. However, they are not strong enough to take strong direct attacks(Fate's scythe/haken blades or Signum's sword). The physical/magical bit is here to explain why some attacks cause no visible injury while other attacks do. I'd wager that Starlight Breaker is probably more powerful than Fate's scythe attack, and yet even when Fate took a direct hit there was no visible injury.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Cats

What training room.
If you mean the explosion in episode 8 then Teana was in mid air, in what should have been virtual-thin-air.

We were talking about the A's manga, actually.

Originally Posted by Cats

Hmm.. this has been bugging me. But have we ever seen pure magic in a non-attack form?!

Often, defensive spells, tracking spells, healing spells, absorbing spells, telleportation spells.

Originally Posted by Cats

My guess is that magic in this show is more a term used to describe how they are able to manifest a seamlessly random unknown form of energy (call it mana what you will) to a physically recognizable form. Hence Yuuno's words that Nanoha should imagine the armor and weapon in season 1.

So in other words it's not magic as in spells as with RPG games but spacial-manipulation and manifestation.

Isn't that exactly the same? Barring the spells that have you use a greater deity, most D&D magics are also spacial-manipulation and manifestation.

Originally Posted by Cats

Also,
Regarding the Yuuno, Familiars etc. can cast spells without devices.
-Theory to make the impossible possible-

I've been thinking, has Yuuno cast a spell without a magic circle?!
I'm not sure if he has but if he hasn't then we have a world of possibilities.

He has, he was casting a healing spell during A's without a circle. He also used archeology spells during his search for information of yami no Sho without circles. Though the circle theories isn't bad at all if we start talking more powerfull spells.

Originally Posted by Meophist

The physical/magical talk happened long before that episode.

In any case, yes, the defense is powerful. The barrier jackets are strong enough to make terrain-based damage(getting hit into a wall or something) cause no actual injury. However, they are not strong enough to take strong direct attacks(Fate's scythe/haken blades or Signum's sword). The physical/magical bit is here to explain why some attacks cause no visible injury while other attacks do. I'd wager that Starlight Breaker is probably more powerful than Fate's scythe attack, and yet even when Fate took a direct hit there was no visible injury.

Nor was there any injury when Fate and Nanoha were tossed trough buildings, and that was as physical as you can get. I favour the pulling the punch theory, as in Nanoha was using a lighter version of the Staight Breaker, which still packed a heavy punch, but wasn't enough to kill Fate (notice the splashing water, if the attack wasn't physical, why would there be splashing water?).

[Avatar_notADV]

A big part of the problem with analyzing attacks thrown in Nanoha is that, basically, the -vast- majority of them aren't intended to be lethal. Nanoha's generally trying to get people to sit still and listen, not waste them; for Fate, Nanoha was just in the way, not her actual target. The knights were specifically going around not actually killing people. We can't be -sure- that Reinforce 1 was actually going all-out - there's a big difference between "seal Fate in a world specifically designed to make her happy" and "kill them all". So far the drones, presumably lethal, haven't even singed anybody. So the number of confirmed, "I am trying to kill you" attacks against human personnel so far is -one-, whatever hit Nanoha back when, and we don't even really know that for sure. Hell, even Precia didn't kill anyone.

So frankly, we don't have any way to judge what a full-power you-gonna-die hit looks like, because we haven't seen any of them hit somebody. We might have if Vita didn't cover Subaru from Teana's stray shot - presumably Tea is going all-out to pop drones - but I'm just as glad that Subaru didn't provide live-fire tests for the jacket. ;p

We can safely conclude that the barrier jackets do provide significant defense against things which are purely physical damage (getting blown through a wall). We can conclude that they provide at least some level of magical defense against big-ass incoming (Nanoha's Starlight Breaker), though we don't know how well they'd fare on their own against a killer shot. We do know that it's possible to get injured through the jacket by a sufficiently powerful attack, even if the jacket isn't itself damaged. We do know that Nanoha got practically killed by an attack that left her jacket mostly intact, though we have reason to suspect that her magical problems may have interfered with its function. We also know that Fate's barrier jacket did her zero good against Precia, though it's always possible that Precia was just hitting Fate -that hard-.

We don't have enough data to conclude anything about "magical" or "physical" contents of attacks, save that some attacks have a definite "physical" component that can punch through an AMF easily (Vita's balls, Zafira's spears, Nanoha's Stardust Fall, Fate's lightning.) Assuming that the flying drones have some AMF, and that Nanoha can bust them without even turning off her barrier, we can imply that (a) Nanoha kicks that much ass, (b) she can do a Variable Shot-type effect, (c) that her bright and shiny attacks aren't purely magical, or (d) she's the title character and the writers aren't being consistent. Your call.

[felix]

Originally Posted by Keroko

We were talking about the A's manga, actually.

Upssy~

Originally Posted by Keroko

Often, defensive spells, tracking spells, healing spells, absorbing spells, telleportation spells.

How is that pure magic form. Those can't be as they manifest for one, and two, manifest differently.
I'm talking about RAW magic.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Isn't that exactly the same? Barring the spells that have you use a greater deity, most D&D magics are also spacial-manipulation and manifestation.

I'm talking about the cause not the effect.
My point, if it's spacial manipulation etc then there is no magic damage.
Since magic is just the ability to manifest a form and control it while it's manifested.

At least it sounds good when you think the source for magic is called a "linker-core" which sounds like something used to create something in a way.

Originally Posted by Keroko

He has, he was casting a healing spell during A's without a circle. He also used archeology spells during his search for information of yami no Sho without circles. Though the circle theories isn't bad at all if we start talking more powerfull spells.

If you mean the healing circle around Nanoha then that doesn't count, since he was making a circle who auto-casted a spell not casting the spell. Or at least the circle came before the spell, regardless of where it was (under him etc)

I'm not familiar with your second reference. Anime or manga?!