Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

I do wonder why Rider took Rin's form, though. Did Sakura (or Shinji) know that Shirou kind of sort of had a small crush on Rin in all three routes? Or did Rider just choose the most desirable girl in Shirou's school by chance?

She didn't. She provided the dream, but Shirou came up with the contents of the dream, hence why Sakura was somewhat upset when she learnt that he had dreamt of Rin (who is, after all, the girl who he has a crush on) rather than her (although I can't imagine she would have been overly pleased with Rider for fucking him in the first place...).

And, no, that's not evidence for Rin being the 'best girl' for Shirou (before anyone claims that it is), because it's just a crush. It shows nothing more than that Shirou finds Rin attractive (which is undeniably true), and that (at that point) he still thinks of Sakura as a "little sister" rather than as someone who he should be having sex with.

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

She didn't. She provided the dream, but Shirou came up with the contents of the dream, hence why Sakura was somewhat upset when she learnt that he had dreamt of Rin (who is, after all, the girl who he has a crush on) rather than her (although I can't imagine she would have been overly pleased with Rider for fucking him in the first place...).

And, no, that's not evidence for Rin being the 'best girl' for Shirou (before anyone claims that it is), because it's just a crush. It shows nothing more than that Shirou finds Rin attractive (which is undeniably true), and that (at that point) he still thinks of Sakura as a "little sister" rather than as someone who he should be having sex with.

Huh, well, that would explain why Rin appeared if Shirou controlled the contents of the dream. After all, he's a teenage guy, it would make sense for him to have that kind of dream about a girl he likes (though judging by his reaction, this seemed to be the first time he's had that kind of dream about her).

And really, CL, did you have to say that? No one even said anything about Rin being the 'best' for Shirou. There's no reason to really justify it, especially since it's a Sakura route; even if he dreams of Rin, we all know who he ends up with at the end (or at least, falls in love with, depending on which HF end you get).

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

Huh, well, that would explain why Rin appeared if Shirou controlled the contents of the dream. After all, he's a teenage guy, it would make sense for him to have that kind of dream about a girl he likes (though judging by his reaction, this seemed to be the first time he's had that kind of dream about her).

Well, I would imagine that Shirou doesn't usually have erotic dreams (which, admittedly, makes him a distinctly non-average teenage boy...), or at least doesn't remember having them. But, you're right that if Rider gave him one, it would make sense for it to be about the girl that he has a crush on, and at that point in the route neither Sakura (who he thinks of as being more like family) or Saber (who he barely knows) would fit that criterion.

And really, CL, did you have to say that? No one even said anything about Rin being the 'best' for Shirou.

I was simply pre-empting people who would say that (and, yes, they do exist). It's an obvious thing for someone to say given what happened in that dream, and there are plenty of anti-Sakura people who would attempt to use it to claim that Shirou "prefers" Rin.

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

I was simply pre-empting people who would say that (and, yes, they do exist). It's an obvious thing for someone to say given what happened in that dream, and there are plenty of anti-Sakura people who would attempt to use it to claim that Shirou "prefers" Rin.

Hm, well, I have to admit, I always saw it less as who was the "best girl" for Shirou all around, and more as "which girl is the best for Shirou in this given route". In Fate, Saber matched Shirou well because she was a strong presence who supported him and someone he managed to save, even if she didn't stay in his time. In UBW, Rin matched him well because she saw through his BS and acted as his partner and source of comfort, so he wouldn't become Archer. In HF Sakura matched him well because she became someone he could protect over his own ideals, and in protecting her he also matured and developed.

[Cherry_Lover]

Well, that's pretty reasonable (although personally I don't really agree so much with the Saber one, because it's debateable whether their relationship did him any real long-term good), but really it's more of a case that all three girls are reasonably well suited to him and, thus, he can be OK with any of them (although in Saber's case the fact that she can't remain makes her less suited, IMO) than it is a case of UBW Shirou being best with Rin or Fate Shirou being best with Saber.

So, I would say that it is perfectly valid to argue that one girl is better for him overall, although all three are clearly perfectly valid choices. Whilst there is some variation between the three Shirous (which does indeed tend to make them more suited for the girl whose route it is), with the exception of HF Shirou (who I struggle to see with anyone else due to the importance of his relationship with Sakura to his character development and to the plot as a whole) I could easily see Shirou ending up with a different girl (in particular, I could see Fate Shirou ending up with either Sakura or Rin at a later date, since Saber has gone).

[Moczo]

Okay, I have a question. I'm not sure, this might belong in the Q&A thread and I'll move it if I have to, but I would need to basically put the whole thing in spoiler tags, so I'd prefer to ask it here.

Heaven's Feel. True Assassin's summoning and Kuzuki's death... what the Hell happened, there?

The first time I read the scene, for some reason, I got the impression that some spell was used to call True Assassin from inside Assassin, and after eating his remains, TA stealthed his way into the temple, killed Kuzuki, and ate Caster after Saber killed her. This death brought the Shadow into being, since it was the first Servant to die and enter the Holy Grail.

But now I re-read the scene as research for a story I'm writing, and it really seems like Fake Assassin got gutted by the Shadow before True Assassin was summoned. But I'm wondering now: who killed Kuzuki? I think if it had been the Shadow, it wouldn't have left a corpse... but then, I also thought the Shadow wouldn't have existed until at least one Servant died. And why would it killing Assassin have allowed True Assassin to be summoned? I'd have thought it would just absorb him.

So I'm just generally confused as to what actually happened in these scenes.

[Cherry_Lover]

OK, according to Nasu, it was actually Caster, although he openly admitted that he'd never thought it out properly. It was in one of the side-material books. So, you're not supposed to be able to work it out from that scene, because Nasu himself never really bothered to think about it.

This link explains what he said.

Oh, and BTW, Caster's death never actually "brought the shadow into being", from what I can tell. I'm pretty sure that Caster was actually eaten by it. Fake Assassin, however, was not. Zouken used him as the 'catalyst' to summon True Assassin. He never went to the Grail at all.

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

OK, according to Nasu, it was actually Caster, although he openly admitted that he'd never thought it out properly. It was in one of the side-material books. So, you're not supposed to be able to work it out from that scene, because Nasu himself never really bothered to think about it.

This link explains what he said.

... But that is the least sensible option! Caster even basically says it wasn't her!

Caster: Hah----I killed my Master? I killed Souichirou-sama? Fuh----- haha, hahahahahahaha! That is funny! Perhaps I should have done so, if it was going to turn out like this...!

Y'know what? Screw Word of God, I'm just going with 'True Assassin killed him'. It makes more sense. Frickin' Nasu.

Oh, and BTW, Caster's death never actually "brought the shadow into being", from what I can tell. I'm pretty sure that Caster was actually eaten by it. Fake Assassin, however, was not. Zouken used him as the 'catalyst' to summon True Assassin. He never went to the Grail at all.

Yeah, I get that after a second look. I know True Assassin is the one who ate Fake Assassin's remains, to stabilize himself. And looking, the Shadow actually appeared for a second in the darkness as Shirou and Saber are making their way to the temple, so it must have existed before Caster died. Not exactly sure how, though, since I was under the impression that it was the corruption of the Grail working through Sakura and wouldn't exist until the Grail had something in it, but it definitely did exist before Caster died, and the text vaguely implied it seemed to have some kind of role in True Assassin's summoning, even if only in the sense that it gutted Fake Assassin while Zouken did his work. And it does seem it's the one that ate Caster's remains, as well.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Moczo

Y'know what? Screw Word of God, I'm just going with 'True Assassin killed him'. It makes more sense. Frickin' Nasu.

Just chalk it all up to more plot holes.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Moczo

Not exactly sure how, though, since I was under the impression that it was the corruption of the Grail working through Sakura and wouldn't exist until the Grail had something in it, but it definitely did exist before Caster died, and the text vaguely implied it seemed to have some kind of role in True Assassin's summoning, even if only in the sense that it gutted Fake Assassin while Zouken did his work. And it does seem it's the one that ate Caster's remains, as well.

Well, I'm guessing that the shadow in the sense of "the thing that wanders around Fuyuki without Zouken's orders and eats people" only existed because of the Grail leaking out of Sakura. However, the shadow can also just be one of Sakura's familiars (because the magic that the shadow uses is, ultimately, just her magic, even if Angra Mainyu 'helps' her out a bit), and Zouken certainly intended to activate her connection to AM. So, it's quite possible that he somehow used AM to get Sakura to subconsciously produce a familiar (I'm pretty sure that she's not there herself) and then used that to fight for him.

[Altima of the Gates]

... But that is the least sensible option! Caster even basically says it wasn't her!

Caster: Hah----I killed my Master? I killed Souichirou-sama? Fuh----- haha, hahahahahahaha! That is funny! Perhaps I should have done so, if it was going to turn out like this...!

Y'know what? Screw Word of God, I'm just going with 'True Assassin killed him'. It makes more sense. Frickin' Nasu.

Well, with the new info you could interpret it as her breaking down and saying, "Well, if it was gonna be this way anyway, I should have just killed him and moved on rather than falling for him."

There you go, more reasons to hate Zouken! He most likely had Kuzuki come back to Ryuudo Temple already "bugged" as a trap for Caster. She freaks, stabs him before Zouken can do whatever he was planning then Saber and Shirou come in at the aftermath. Pretty cut and dry if you ask me.

[Haak]

I figured True Assassin killed both Assassin (to take his form) and Kuzuki (so the shadow could get Caster)

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Did you take a look at the eyes? That was Rider doing it with him. He thought it was a dream, but it wasn't.

I was raging so much by the 11th day.

Oh yeah I figured Rider had something to do with it but i didn't realise she was actually doing it. Lol.

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

Well, with the new info you could interpret it as her breaking down and saying, "Well, if it was gonna be this way anyway, I should have just killed him and moved on rather than falling for him."

There you go, more reasons to hate Zouken! He most likely had Kuzuki come back to Ryuudo Temple already "bugged" as a trap for Caster. She freaks, stabs him before Zouken can do whatever he was planning then Saber and Shirou come in at the aftermath. Pretty cut and dry if you ask me.

My problem with this explanation is that UBW showed Caster apparently keeps an insanely close eye on Kuzuki when he's not at the temple. A low-power Gandr shot like the one Rin tried to zap him with is invisible and non-lethal, yet Caster was able to sense it, freak out, and teleport to his side in time to block it. Anything Zouken could do to him that was so threatening it would provoke the wide-eyed psycho response she showed here, I think she would sense equally well, while it's likely that TA could stealth-kill Kuzuki past her perceptions.

Also, Kuzuki was stabbed. Caster most likely could not kill him in close-combat, and even if she could her murder methods tend to leave a smoking crater, not a bleeding corpse; she never uses Rule Breaker as an actual weapon. I find it more believable she was covered in blood because the Hand of Freakin' Satan exploded her Master's chest out of nowhere when he was standing right next to her, and in a panic she whipped out her Noble Phantasm to try to intimidate whatever did it into staying away from her while she tried to figure out what the fuck just happened.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Moczo

My problem with this explanation is that UBW showed Caster apparently keeps an insanely close eye on Kuzuki when he's not at the temple. A low-power Gandr shot like the one Rin tried to zap him with is invisible and non-lethal, yet Caster was able to sense it, freak out, and teleport to his side in time to block it. Anything Zouken could do to him that was so threatening it would provoke the wide-eyed psycho response she showed here, I think she would sense equally well, while it's likely that TA could stealth-kill Kuzuki past her perceptions..

Whilst I can see your point (it seems damn weird to me too), I would have to point out that Caster had known Kuzuki for a lot longer in UBW than she had in HF. I would assume that their relationship would develop at least a little over that time.

Caster most likely could not kill him in close-combat

Erm, I think she could, actually. Without her reinforcement, he couldn't even harm her. Archer proves this in UBW when Kuzuki attacks him once Caster is dead.

she never uses Rule Breaker as an actual weapon.

Actually, she killed her original master with it.

I find it more believable she was covered in blood because the Hand of Freakin' Satan exploded her Master's chest out of nowhere when he was standing right next to her

I'm pretty sure it's not that simple. TA is good at killing masters, but if he could kill them when their servant was stood right next to them, then Zouken wouldn't need Sakura to help him win. I would imagine that Caster would be able to detect TA if he were to attempt to attack Kuzuki like that, especially in the temple.

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Whilst I can see your point (it seems damn weird to me too), I would have to point out that Caster had known Kuzuki for a lot longer in UBW than she had in HF. I would assume that their relationship would develop at least a little over that time.

Like, how much longer? Wouldn't it be a difference of a couple days at most?

Erm, I think she could, actually. Without her reinforcement, he couldn't even harm her. Archer proves this in UBW when Kuzuki attacks him once Caster is dead.

Well, he couldn't kill her, but in hand-to-hand combat she is really nothing worth mentioning. I'd think he could at least manage to get away from her, if not actually win.

Actually, she killed her original master with it.

Oh. Well, just plain wrong on that count, I guess.

I'm pretty sure it's not that simple. TA is good at killing masters, but if he could kill them when their servant was stood right next to them, then Zouken wouldn't need Sakura to help him win. I would imagine that Caster would be able to detect TA if he were to attempt to attack Kuzuki like that, especially in the temple.

Yeah, I can see your point. Zabaniya has kind of a big charge-up time, he probably couldn't stay under the radar while using it. It's probably more likely he pulled out the Dark then and just used his throwing knives from outside the window or something; they move at bullet speed and one would do the job, if he had the element of surprise he could have taken out Kuzuki before Caster even knew they were under attack. Alternatively, he and the Shadow could have pulled their usual tag-team; that worked on better opponents than Caster.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Moczo

Like, how much longer? Wouldn't it be a difference of a couple days at most?

Hmm, I'd have to check when the relative events happen. I doubt Kuzuki found her prior to the start of the game, though (since she wasn't sucking prana from the town at that point), so I would imagine that it would be a substantial difference.

Well, he couldn't kill her, but in hand-to-hand combat she is really nothing worth mentioning. I'd think he could at least manage to get away from her, if not actually win.

She's still a servant. He's just an ordinary human, albeit a well-trained one. If he weren't reinforced by Caster, Rin could probably beat him, and Shirou certainly could (if he were aware of his tracing ability). True, she would just turn him into a smoking crater if she wanted to kill him, but if she were forced to fight him at close range without magic, she could probably so it

Oh. Well, just plain wrong on that count, I guess.

Yeah.

Having said that, she likely killed him in a surprise attack, when he wasn't expecting it, and it was intentional. She wouldn't usually use Rule Breaker to kill people in that manner, because magical beam-spam is just better at it.

Yeah, I can see your point. Zabaniya has kind of a big charge-up time, he probably couldn't stay under the radar while using it. It's probably more likely he pulled out the Dark then and just used his throwing knives from outside the window or something; they move at bullet speed and one would do the job, if he had the element of surprise he could have taken out Kuzuki before Caster even knew they were under attack. Alternatively, he and the Shadow could have pulled their usual tag-team; that worked on better opponents than Caster.

Again, if it were that easy to kill a master when their servant was watching them, then TA would be unstoppable. As soon as he prepares to attack, the servant will notice him, as long as they're with their master at the time.

The involvement of the shadow is plausible, though.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Hmm, I'd have to check when the relative events happen. I doubt Kuzuki found her prior to the start of the game, though (since she wasn't sucking prana from the town at that point), so I would imagine that it would be a substantial difference.

Are you sure? I could've sworn when they first showed us, the players, the news about "gas leaks", that it was implied it had been going on for a bit of time.

She's still a servant. He's just an ordinary human, albeit a well-trained one. If he weren't reinforced by Caster, Rin could probably beat him, and Shirou certainly could (if he were aware of his tracing ability). True, she would just turn him into a smoking crater if she wanted to kill him, but if she were forced to fight him at close range without magic, she could probably so it

She might be more durable due to being a Servant, but he's still highly trained. Her reinforcement only does so much, yet he was still able to put Saber down with ease. Against an opponent with no melee combat experience, he should be able to just utterly dominate every day of the week.

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

She's still a servant. He's just an ordinary human, albeit a well-trained one. If he weren't reinforced by Caster, Rin could probably beat him, and Shirou certainly could (if he were aware of his tracing ability). True, she would just turn him into a smoking crater if she wanted to kill him, but if she were forced to fight him at close range without magic, she could probably so it

Oh, I'm not saying that if it came to a protracted battle, she wouldn't probably win. Even if only because he couldn't really hurt her. But although she's stronger and faster than him (As I recall, even E-rank for a Servant is higher than a normal human can obtain) she seems to have no actual training or experience in hand-to-hand combat, while he's a trained martial artist and experienced assassin. He could probably, if threatened, at least manage to keep away from her well enough to force her to break out the magic.

Again, if it were that easy to kill a master when their servant was watching them, then TA would be unstoppable. As soon as he prepares to attack, the servant will notice him, as long as they're with their master at the time.

The involvement of the shadow is plausible, though.

A Servant who was better at staying cool under pressure, perhaps, but Caster does not have the best track record with handling surprises. In other routes, when things don't go according to her plans she tends to not improvise a new plan on the fly very well and typically gets at least humiliated, if not outright murdered. If TA's 'preparation for attack' consisted of stealthing up to the nearest window and firing one bullet-knife from thirty feet away, it's possible she just wouldn't react well enough in the split second before impact, given the shock that someone managed to get past her guard dog and into the heart of her temple without being noticed (And she must not have noticed, or True Assassin's birth would have been illuminated by a storm of magical death rays instead of the moon).

That said, the Shadow does make it more believable. TA could have much more easily pulled off a surprise attack on Kuzuki if Caster was busy trying to avoid being eaten.

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Hmm, I'd have to check when the relative events happen. I doubt Kuzuki found her prior to the start of the game, though (since she wasn't sucking prana from the town at that point), so I would imagine that it would be a substantial difference.

I'm a little confused now. I was always under the impression that in the beginnings of all three routes, the gas leaks in Shinto could be contributed to Caster, which meant that she had been going at it for some time prior to Shirou getting involved in the War; it's only that it really gets fully explained as to what's going on in UBW (and hinted at best with Fate, if I remember right).

Also, maybe I misinterpreted the scene, but I got the feeling that HF Caster was just as much in love with Kuzuki as her UBW counterpart, hence her horror and somewhat insane laughter when Saber assumes she killed him herself. Unless Caster has a track record of falling in love with men who treat her well insanely quickly, that would imply that she had been with Kuzuki for awhile before the TA was born from Fake Assassin, so maybe at the least her feelings for him were starting to develop.

[Haak]

I thought Caster fell in love with Kuzuki the day they met.

Is it possible that the shadow took control of Kuzuki and forced him to attack Caster and Caster tried to tried to destroy the shadows bind on Kuzuki by using her Noble Phantasm but ended up killing Kukuzi instead by accident?