[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[Jan-Poo]

Lambda knows the truth already. So saying that she doesn't care about the truth doesn't make much sense.

But I have to disagree for Bern as well. Bern doesn't care to win by finding the truth.

However if all that she was interested to was to win and nothing else she'd have no other reason to continue that game.

But that's not what happens. In EP5 tea party she makes Erika the new Game Master and she gives her a precise order: find the truth about the stakes, find the truth about the siesta sisters and find the truth about Beatrice.

[Pika_power]

She wanted to crush and torture them some more. That's all it is. She's a witch, and detests boredom.

[Renall]

If Lambda knows the whole truth, she has no interest in sharing it; I think that certainly qualifies as "not caring." Apparently something about it wouldn't be very interesting to her if it got out, so she prefers not to say... or she just doesn't really care. Or she's having more fun watching Battler twist in the wind trying to get there. Either way, letting Bern get away with that travesty of a frame job is only made worse if she knows what really happened, because it makes her complicit in the presentation of a scenario she knows is false.

Unless she had another objective, of course.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Lambda knows the truth already. So saying that she doesn't care about the truth doesn't make much sense.

But I have to disagree for Bern as well. Bern doesn't care to win by finding the truth.

Lambda knows some of the truth, but not to the extent Beato does. We know this from numerous interviews and Bernkastel''s letter. She knows a large chunk of what the truth is, but she does not know it fully. And yet she wants to keep the truth from being known as long as possible simply to be "entertained". And she'll do this with or without Beato since she calls her a "temporary witch".

Bern on other hand although she does not know the truth sort of wants to find out, but she also wants to find an entertaining truth so she'll spin the truth in a way she likes it. If she can cut a game off by saying "Natsuhi is the culprit" to win when she's not she'll do it. Just to win. And then finding out who the stakes and Siestas are is all that's left. She was determined to make Natsuhi into Beatrice though according to the court papers.

If you need more to beleive she doesn't really want to find the truth. I'll ask you this. Why did she "have no problems" (in her own words) with Battler being erased? When he was erased She was prepared to leave and accept her loss. If she really cared for the truth why wouldn't she defend her pieces that were supposed to be finding it? Battler being erased also means her Ange piece will not come into play because the game comes to an abrupt END.

[LyricalAura]

I thought it was fairly obvious that Lambda intended for Battler to win the round from the very beginning. She went to all that trouble constructing a scenario for Bern where his unreliable viewpoint was the linchpin of the mystery, and then deliberately ground the critical clue in his face during the replay to make sure he didn't miss it.

[Kylon99]

I'd say it was proof that Lambdadelta is a tsundere! 8)

Anyways, it seems like going into this the fans would've trusted Bernkastel the most and was suspicious of Lambdadelta the most. But by now Ryukishi's managed to turn it upside down...

[matteas]

Don't forget that Bern's main intention is to be entertained. She doesn't care about winning the game and closing its curtain. She wants to enjoy it to the fullest and that's why she is seeking the truth behind Beatrice, Stakes, Siesta Sisters and the whole composition of the gameboard. Bern's character and intentions are the most wicked as she plays around with everyone.

However, when the game was heading in a way that it completely ceased to entertain Bern, that is when Battler was being erased, she accepted the loss and had no problem with it because seeking the truth wouldn't entertain her anymore, I think. At that point of game, she probably found boring what she thought was to come and she didn't mind taking her leave, even though it meant she would leave as the defeated one. So she probably doesn't care about winning or losing the game. Bern just wants to have a great time pulling the strings from behind and trolling everybody while attaining an acceptable, pleasurable truth.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Lambda knows some of the truth, but not to the extent Beato does. We know this from numerous interviews and Bernkastel''s letter. She knows a large chunk of what the truth is, but she does not know it fully. And yet she wants to keep the truth from being known as long as possible simply to be "entertained". And she'll do this with or without Beato since she calls her a "temporary witch".

Wait this strikes as something completely out of the blue. How can you say that Lambda doesn't know the whole truth? In no case I was given that impression.

But wait... isn't that you were confused by the fact that Lambda likes to play dumb?

[Renall]

If Lambda knows the whole truth, why is she still there? Wouldn't she get bored?

I mean, unless her only objective is to mess with Bern. Which she actually has stated several times. But shouldn't Bern know that when going up against her? If Lambda and Beatrice both know what's going on, why would Bern ever trust either of them for even a second?

Granted, she may not. Lambda seems pretty easy to lead on. It could all be a trap on Bern's part to mess with her, with the latter having never been fooled for a moment.

In either case, they don't really care that much about the truth, except as a weapon to screw with each other.

[Sniesk]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Can you quote the exact sentence? I want to be sure Dlanor implied that Bern also wanted Kinzo to be alive, checking the japanese as well.

No doubt about Lambda 'though. However in her case simply seeing Bern's face angered would be a good reason.
In case Bern is in it as well, then it's because she knows what Bern is plotting and she thinks it would be interesting to see it.

It is at the beginning of the chapter "Reasoning and Inspection".
Dlanor says "Kinzo doesn't exist. should already be a fact. Lamba and Bern should know this well. Yet they are both leaving room for Kinzo to exist as they continue the game... It is almost as though the two are conspiring to prevent Kinzo's existence from being denied"

After that she says that they must have "some sort of wicked goal"

Now, we know that with Beato in a coma, Battler not playing and with Erika + Dlanor on the human side, the witch side is on the verge of losing. So as Lambda wants to keep a tie, it really is strange for her to ally with Bern in this situation.
At the beginning i thought it was just to frame Natsuhi with that wicked argument at the end but this is probably too simple.

Regarding the use of red truth by Dlanor and her underlings, i didn't mean to say that the red affects the gameboard. I think that it may even be the opposite. Gertrude would have never been able to say that the door remained closed if Eva didn't stuck the receipt in it. That red is just a magical counterpart of human techniques used to find the truth. It is to give certainity to an uncertain method. I mean, the fact that there's a receipt in a door it doesn't mean that i can't open it, placing the receipt again. As the red truth is spoken, we are then certain that the receipt achiieved it's purpouse and the door was actually never opened.

[Pika_power]

Originally Posted by Sniesk

Gertrude would have never been able to say that the door remained closed if Eva didn't stuck the receipt in it. That red is just a magical counterpart of human techniques used to find the truth. It is to give certainity to an uncertain method. I mean, the fact that there's a receipt in a door it doesn't mean that i can't open it, placing the receipt again. As the red truth is spoken, we are then certain that the receipt achiieved it's purpouse and the door was actually never opened.

The red can be used when there is no human proof. "Kanon died in this room" for example.

Admittedly, the Red appears to behave differently in EP5. Possibly because EP5 conforms to Knox rules entirely, while in previous scenarios, this is obviously not the case. (As we know from Beato's red being used as an investigation technique in regards to Kanon's death.)

[Sniesk]

Originally Posted by Pika_power

The red can be used when there is no human proof. "Kanon died in this room" for example.

Admittedly, the Red appears to behave differently in EP5. Possibly because EP5 conforms to Knox rules entirely, while in previous scenarios, this is obviously not the case. (As we know from Beato's red being used as an investigation technique in regards to Kanon's death.)

Wait, i'm not talking about the witches' red. Becouse of Knox 2nd, Dlanor, Gertrude and Cornelia cannot use the red directly. They cannot say "Kinzo is already dead" but they can say other things that are supported by human evidence. So if Cornelia was about to use the red to say that the window was closed the whole time, it means that someone had some kind of proof about that, but that person choose to remain silent. In the metaworld, that means the GM forbid the use of that red by not allowing that person (that we can regard as the gm piece) to speak.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Renall

If Lambda knows the whole truth, why is she still there? Wouldn't she get bored?

I mean, unless her only objective is to mess with Bern. Which she actually has stated several times. But shouldn't Bern know that when going up against her? If Lambda and Beatrice both know what's going on, why would Bern ever trust either of them for even a second?

Granted, she may not. Lambda seems pretty easy to lead on. It could all be a trap on Bern's part to mess with her, with the latter having never been fooled for a moment.

In either case, they don't really care that much about the truth, except as a weapon to screw with each other.

Well I think you answered yourself. Lambda doesn't care that much about the truth, so the fact that she knows the whole truth is irrelevant. Even if there was something she didn't know, she wouldn't care.
Obviously knowing the truth is not what interest her, and that's why she must have another reason, that's why, because of that reason, even if she knows the whole truth that doesn't affect her.


@Sniesk
Okay I reread that part and Dlanor does say that both Bern and Lambda are together to let Kinzo stay alive.
Maybe they really planned from the beginning to make him get laid by Natsuhi... however if that was the case Erika wasn't aware of that plan if not later.
What bothers me the most is why Lambda and Bern seem to work together in EP5. I just can't understand Lambda. She gives Bern all the weapons to win, and if Bern wins she loses. Even if you assume it was all a crazy plan to make Battler reach the truth, Lambda still loses and Bern still wins. Because as much as Battler and Bern do not share the same opinion on how the human side should win, they are still both on the human side.

Additionally if Battler wins the game ends, if Bern wins the game ends. If the game ends Lambda loses.

At this point I can only think that Lambda's claim that she only cares about seeing Bern's twisted face is actually the only thing she cares about.

[Sniesk]

I think Lambda doesn't really care about anything that happens on the gameboard. I mean, she just wants to trap Bernkastel regardless on what has to happen to pieces. In all the games, she never showed interest in the gameboard itself, acting only against the meta-characters (think of Ange for example). So i think that it is unlikely for her to care about what kind of "truth" Bern wants to create for Natsuhi, and she is even more unlikely to help here to achieve that. She probably doesn't care about Battler also, and if i recall correctly she is also a bit surprised when Battler is declared to be the territory lord.
So there is something else to be gain letting Kinzo escape. That doesn't have to be the same for both witches. Maybe Bern really plans to frame Natsuhi with that, but i'm sure that Lambda has another objective.

[Judoh]

Like I said I got that impression from Bernksastel's Letter and some statements in the interviews about her.

It seems Lambda-Delta touched it a bit but too, but she can't possibly reach her level.

Maybe she figured it out "completely" in the Chiru arcs I'm not sure, but I'm still under the impression she doesn't know everything there is to this game.

[Sniesk]

That means that she can't use the endless magic (whatever that is exactly). Even if she is the GM, she cannot be called "Endless Witch", while Battler also gained that title when he become the GM.
I think that means that she knows the truth, but she can't make full use of it. That can explain why ep5 is so strange regarding the epitaph murders.
Anyway she probably doesn't care about it as long as she can keep Bern trapped.

[Renall]

I sort of think she's come to realize this game will end. If it must end, she wants to make sure Bern will be the loser. That's about the only reason I could ever see her helping Battler so much. She does a whole lot more than just establish equilibrium when it suits her, and the things she does to "help" Bern and Erika don't necessarily always look so helpful in the end.

In other words, I think she's realized a stalemate might not be possible, and if it's not, Bern can't as a secondary goal be allowed the satisfaction of the game ending her way.

Erika seems blissfully ignorant of most of this, and thinks her role is the one she was told it was. It clearly isn't; she's there to be used, nothing more.

[Jan-Poo]

"lose" in a moral sense maybe... because technically if Battler wins, Bern wins as well.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

"lose" in a moral sense maybe... because technically if Battler wins, Bern wins as well.

Maybe she's hoping for a way that will allow Battler to win while Bern loses. You can't say anything isn't certain with Lambdadelta, after all. She'll certainly make Battler win and Bern lose, all at once!

[Jan-Poo]

Possible... if one of the two switches side.

But didn't Lambda said she didn't want anyone to win? I wonder if she'll find a way to trap Bern in the game while everyone else is freed...