[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Renall

Is anyone cold enough to actually do this? I could see deciding to kill everyone else after one's family is killed off, but it's hard to imagine a lot of the family members in this killing off their parents or children. Certainly not impossible or anything, but it seems unlikely.

Unless, of course, they have insurance... but only Kyrie and Rudolf have a child safely off the island. If you were, say, Hideyoshi, and you wanted to avoid suspicion, couldn't you just come up with a business trip excuse to put you and George safely away while Eva goes about her business? It seems like that'd be easier, but nobody did it. Unless Ange's "sickness" was deliberate, anyway. That leads me to believe no one killer actually intended to massacre everybody. It just works out that way.

Relatively safe. The last thing Kyrie wants is for Ange to be put in the care of her sweet little sister. In ep3 we have seen that there wasn't any elaborate plan to give Ange a safe shelter after the incident. If this was all done by Kyrie for Ange's sake, there would be a more solid plan to protect her. It's not like Kyrie to elaborate such an half-assed strategy.

This of course if we assume that Kyrie loves Ange. But I see little reason to doubt this.

[desirebluesky]

that is, if you assume that Kyrie is the only killer. no matter what her plan for the conference was, i think it's safe to assume she was sure she and rudolf are gonna come back alive, but something unexpected happens and ooops they die. it doesn't really contradict the theory she's a killer, if we assume she only wanted to kill a few people.

and about why she left her in home then, she probably just didn't want her to see the whole thing. beeing on the island when people get murdered can be pretty traumatic, even if you don't get to see the corpses yourself.

there's a question as to why ange herself doesn't question her illness, but she probably doesn't remember that time well so yeah. it may be a clue, it may not.

Originally Posted by kite11

Really, I never trust people in mysteries that I don't have enough info on, and there were plenty of chances to show off background, so probably next ep. we will get more background. (Like the "Orphanage of the servants, why Kumasawa and Shannon work for so long, more details about the family business, etc.) Really, I would not be surprised if we end up with 19 people on the Island next episode...

I would not be suprised if we got emo-Battler flashbacks like in EP4. (not necessary post-ep5 though)

[ameskitty]

Spoiler for End spoilers:

Yeah, Kanon in particular is pretty well set up to have some post EP 5 emo flashbacks . I mean he's loveless and probably out of the job he's had for his entire life. I doubt he'll just be left in such a prime state for angst without getting some sort of development before the next game "begins".

Plus next to Battler's family (which I suspect will be saved for last) he probably has the most unclear past of the remaining "unexplained" characters. Some of that stuff he sobs about in EP 2 is more than a little strange.

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by desirebluesky

that is, if you assume that Kyrie is the only killer. no matter what her plan for the conference was, i think it's safe to assume she was sure she and rudolf are gonna come back alive, but something unexpected happens and ooops they die. it doesn't really contradict the theory she's a killer, if we assume she only wanted to kill a few people.

and about why she left her in home then, she probably just didn't want her to see the whole thing. beeing on the island when people get murdered can be pretty traumatic, even if you don't get to see the corpses yourself.

there's a question as to why ange herself doesn't question her illness, but she probably doesn't remember that time well so yeah. it may be a clue, it may not.


I would not be suprised if we got emo-Battler flashbacks like in EP4. (not necessary post-ep5 though)

Spoiler for Ange's sickness:

According to Battler, she had dirrahea.

I still think she'll be Meta-Battler's new piece, assuming he uses one. After all, she had a slot in EP3, and would be the most likely to believe in his existence.

[Leinne]

Originally Posted by the_rogue

Spoiler for End spoilers:

Yeah, Kanon in particular is pretty well set up to have some post EP 5 emo flashbacks . I mean he's loveless and probably out of the job he's had for his entire life. I doubt he'll just be left in such a prime state for angst without getting some sort of development before the next game "begins".

Plus next to Battler's family (which I suspect will be saved for last) he probably has the most unclear past of the remaining "unexplained" characters. Some of that stuff he sobs about in EP 2 is more than a little strange.

And what about hideyoshi, we only know his family ded in the war. At least we know some things about Kanon's past, but Hideyoshi is still a complete mistery

[desirebluesky]

Originally Posted by Workworkwork

Spoiler for Ange's sickness:

According to Battler, she had dirrahea.

why do i feel like Ryukishi is making fun of us i mean, everyone asumed she has a cold before this ep
(does it kinda break my false illness theory or something? because i don't know if i have to counter that or not. XD)

[ameskitty]

Originally Posted by Leinne

And what about hideyoshi, we only know his family ded in the war. At least we know some things about Kanon's past, but Hideyoshi is still a complete mistery

Not saying others won't get/don't need development, just that I think that's what's coming post-EP5/pre new game . I'd also say that almost all of the other servants are also on a suspiciously blank slate (although if the Virgilia thing is literal in terms of her relations to Beatrice I suspect anything about Kumasawa will be saved for near the end too).

Kanon's just kind of an annoying one to me because we're given hints that he's been raised very strangely but we don't know any details about how. Shannon, too, but because she didn't spend as much time there she basically has a very light version of whatever he got.

Hideyoshi for some reason hasn't bothered me that much other than the fact that the lack of information is slightly suspicious.

Psh, maybe I'm just a sucker for the psychological (nut)cases, and Kanon/Shannon/(to a lesser extent) Genji seems to be the last obvious ones .

[Ithekro]

Well, since the household is trying to keep the secret that Kinzo is dead from the rest of the family, it would make sense to have only the most loyal, or most needed servents present for the family meeting. Kumasawa, while a part-timer, I suppose is quite loyal, since she's been there for decades. Genji and Shannon have been there for years and are considered loyal.

Kanon and Gohda are the questions. Most servents don't last more than two years at the mansion, but Kanon has been there three and seems almost programmed to think of himself as "furnature". Either he is most needed, or deemed loyal. Gohda is probably the newest one there. Has he even seen Kinzo? He's the most needed because he's the chef, and thus to make sure everyone is happy and fed, you need Gohda. One assumes he's loyal to Natsuhi.

There is a question though. Are they, or have they managed to keep the secret from Jessica?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Marion

And yeah I agree, Kaisos. I actually think at this point George has something to do with the Beatrice letter at least, since he placed the mark on Maria's rose to begin with.

This makes the George/Shannon evil power couple theory so easy. George draws Maria's attention to a particular spot, Shannon or Kanon comes by later and removes the rose, Shannon shows up as "Beatrice" while she knows Maria will be looking for it.

Does George ever say or do something that would cause Maria to want to go look for her rose again? Even an offhand comment? Check ep1...

[Volcanic]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

There is a question though. Are they, or have they managed to keep the secret from Jessica?

It's never mentioned, so it can be assumed Jessica doesn't know. She was only 16 when he died after all, and thus had a higher risk of slipping the secret, at least in Krauss and Natsuhi's eyes. I wouldn't be surprised if she had her suspicions though...if my Grandfather didn't come out of his room very often and I didn't see him once for two years, I would be suspicious. (Might be just me though, considering my Grandpa is the exact opposite of Kinzo )

On a slightly interesting note, on the supreme lack of Hideyoshi character development: even though these are not Answer arcs, if they were, EP5 could be considered the answer to EP1, with the focus on Natsuhi and such. If we continue with this, as I doubt we'd get MORE Rosa in EP6 after EP2 and EP4, (I think we'll get her final "I'm going to be a good mom now" in EP7\8) then we could possibly have some Kyrie development (as EP2 was the first arc we got into her perspective, with skirt!Beato) and then with EP3 being the Eva arc, if there are eight arcs, then EP7 would be a good time for Hideyoshi development.

After EP5 and this mysterious man on the phone, I'm seriously suspecting that being a blood Ushiromiya doesn't exclude you from the revenge list.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by desirebluesky

why do i feel like Ryukishi is making fun of us i mean, everyone asumed she has a cold before this ep
(does it kinda break my false illness theory or something? because i don't know if i have to counter that or not. XD)

It wasn't just an assumption. In ep1 Eva says that Ange is sick and she heard she's been vomiting. This kind of symptoms are usually associated with cold or influenza. But diarrhea is rarely so, plus Battler says this isn't just a recent condition, he says Ange always had such problems and it just aggravated prior the family conference.

It could be that Ange is afflicted by both vomit and diarrhea, but somehow I can't this is a likely scenario. We have two different versions of Ange's sickness, and it's quite suspicious.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Well, since the household is trying to keep the secret that Kinzo is dead from the rest of the family, it would make sense to have only the most loyal, or most needed servents present for the family meeting. Kumasawa, while a part-timer, I suppose is quite loyal, since she's been there for decades. Genji and Shannon have been there for years and are considered loyal.

Kanon and Gohda are the questions. Most servents don't last more than two years at the mansion, but Kanon has been there three and seems almost programmed to think of himself as "furnature". Either he is most needed, or deemed loyal. Gohda is probably the newest one there. Has he even seen Kinzo? He's the most needed because he's the chef, and thus to make sure everyone is happy and fed, you need Gohda. One assumes he's loyal to Natsuhi.

There is a question though. Are they, or have they managed to keep the secret from Jessica?

It's three years not two. The fukuin children usually stay 3 years and then they leave. The only one who makes an exception is Shannon.

This only apply to the fukuin children, Kumasawa and Genji have been working for Kinzo since a long a time, and Gohda most probably isn't thinking about leaving the house anytime soon.

From ep5 it appears that Gohda was completely unaware of Kinzo's death, so probably Jessica was left out as well. Although the total lack of info about how they handled Kinzo's departure with Jessica makes me think that she is probably aware.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

It wasn't just an assumption. In ep1 Eva says that Ange is sick and she heard she's been vomiting. This kind of symptoms are usually associated with cold or influenza. But diarrhea is rarely so, plus Battler says this isn't just a recent condition, he says Ange always had such problems and it just aggravated prior the family conference.

It could be that Ange is afflicted by both vomit and diarrhea, but somehow I can't this is a likely scenario. We have two different versions of Ange's sickness, and it's quite suspicious.

Ange might be naturally prone to illness, like a weak immune system. If Kyrie had a miscarriage it might just be her body naturally not capable of carrying a child, so even though Ange was born there were complications. And it could be possible that Kyrie and Rudolf just told everyone she had a bad cold, because I don't think they would want to embarrass their own daughter by telling everyone she has diarrhea. Battler, for example, almost got knocked out by Jessica and George for making fun of it with Maria (marshmellows what)

[kite11]

But remember, Ange's illness is one of the few things that stay the same throughout the games... We'll probably get more details of her illness (maybe in tips?) And wasn't it stated that the cut off for entering the game was Oct. 3? I still like my "Battler's friend X" joins the gameboard and meta world... Was it ever stated why Battler was chosen to play, besides being Kinzo's grandson? (But wouldn't george count to?)

[Marion]

Originally Posted by kite11

But remember, Ange's illness is one of the few things that stay the same throughout the games... We'll probably get more details of her illness (maybe in tips?) And wasn't it stated that the cut off for entering the game was Oct. 3? I still like my "Battler's friend X" joins the gameboard and meta world... Was it ever stated why Battler was chosen to play, besides being Kinzo's grandson? (But wouldn't george count to?)

Battler decided to play because Beato challenged him to prove that the murders could be done by humans and not witches, since Battler was saying that he didn't believe in witches during the EP 1 tea party.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by kite11

And wasn't it stated that the cut off for entering the game was Oct. 3?

Bernkastel said to Ange, "You were sick in bed starting October 3, 1986. And Beato's game board is cut off starting October 4." Other than that I don't think the exact cut off time was mentioned.

We should trust what Bernkastel says right?

[kite11]

Originally Posted by Marion

Battler decided to play because Beato challenged him to prove that the murders could be done by humans and not witches, since Battler was saying that he didn't believe in witches during the EP 1 tea party.

Yeah, but wasn't there the whole part regarding Battler and his sin and Beato trying to cancel the game because the opponent had to be Kinzo's grandson?

And to Ssol, doesn't that eliminate Ange's joining of the board? And i doubt battler won't use the gamemaster's power to add another piece, just not Ange. (And what can Ange do anyway when she's younger than Maria?)

Sorry Work, it feels like I'm just trying to shut down the "Ange will be a piece on the board theory..."

[Marion]

Originally Posted by kite11

Yeah, but wasn't there the whole part regarding Battler and his sin and Beato trying to cancel the game because the opponent had to be Kinzo's grandson?

And to Ssol, doesn't that eliminate Ange's joining of the board? And i doubt battler won't use the gamemaster's power to add another piece, just not Ange. (And what can Ange do anyway when she's younger than Maria?)

Sorry Work, it feels like I'm just trying to shut down the "Ange will be a piece on the board theory..."

Beato always knew Battler was Kinzo's grandson. At that point she just wanted to find a way out of the game, without being punished by Lambda or Bern. If Battler just argued that because Rudolf is his father it means that Kinzo is his grandfather, since Rudolf is one related to Kinzo and not Asumu, then he would have been able to cancel out the blue, since it was about him not being Kinzo's grandson. However he was in shock so.

And yeah I don't see why Battler would bring in his six year old sister. I don't think she would exactly help very much.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by kite11

And to Ssol, doesn't that eliminate Ange's joining of the board? And i doubt battler won't use the gamemaster's power to add another piece, just not Ange. (And what can Ange do anyway when she's younger than Maria?)

That's right. I believe that was just another one of Bernkastel's lies. Erika was added during October 4th and not at the start of it. Unless she was hiding on the island throughout the morning.

Yeah, I can't wait to see what piece Battler adds. 10 bucks says it's another hot babe he can boss around.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Ssol

That's right. I believe that was just another one of Bernkastel's lies. Erika was added during October 4th and not at the start of it. Unless she was hiding on the island throughout the morning.

Yeah, I can't wait to see what piece Battler adds. 10 bucks says it's another hot babe he can boss around.

Are you sure he will? I don't see what the point is, since he already has a piece on the island (himself).

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Marion

Are you sure he will? I don't see what the point is, since he already has a piece on the island (himself).

Why wouldn't you want to add as many pieces to your side as possible?

My question is regarding the level of control.
If he's able to communicate back and forth with his piece like Beatrice was able to wouldn't the first move be to warn everyone that THEY ARE ALL GOING TO BE KILLED?