[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[Marion]

Going a bit off topic, I decided to replay EP 5 and noticed a major contradiction.

In this cap Kyrie said that they need money. The fact that they wanted to pressure Krauss about giving some and then decided to use Kyoto people to investigate him means it's probably urgent.

But in these caps from EP 2 she apparently wasn't even aware that they needed money urgently.

This is really odd. EP 5 suggests Kyrie knows Rudolf has a lawsuit on his hands or at least has issues with money, but in EP 2 when they talk about Suit-Beato coming she said that she doesn't know about it at all.

[Knicknevin]

Originally Posted by Marion

Going a bit off topic, I decided to replay EP 5 and noticed a major contradiction.

In this cap Kyrie said that they need money. The fact that they wanted to pressure Krauss about giving some and then decided to use Kyoto people to investigate him means it's probably urgent.

But in these caps from EP 2 she apparently wasn't even aware that they needed money urgently.

This is really odd. EP 5 suggests Kyrie knows Rudolf has a lawsuit on his hands or at least has issues with money, but in EP 2 when they talk about Suit-Beato coming she said that she doesn't know about it at all.

She might have been acting for Rudolph's benefit. She tends to keep a pretty low profile in the family gatherings. Or maybe she just didn't realize just how bad things were until it became clear at the conference.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Knicknevin

She might have been acting for Rudolph's benefit. She tends to keep a pretty low profile in the family gatherings. Or maybe she just didn't realize just how bad things were until it became clear at the conference.

Why would she need to act in this case? And how would she not think it was 'this bad' if she was saying they were going to need to borrow money from Krauss and goes as far as to investigate him using Kyoto people, who seem to be almost a last resort. She even said right here that there wouldn't be any room for failure.

For some reason Kyrie and Hideyoshi just have an odd air around them. Hideyoshi never mentioned anything about war generals from what I recall until EP 5 and Kyrie is pretty much the only person who seems to get angry at Erika besides Battler.

[ElderKain]

Also take into consideration of Rudolf's talk in his work office about money at the start of Ep4.
That is a bog point of why Rudolf is in need of the money as well.

[Arkwright]

Originally Posted by Knicknevin

Better to think that the 'murders' were a ploy the family made up during the late night conference to entertain their surprise guest. Natsuhi was ordered not to speak to anyone or accept any calls by the REAL killer, in order to isolate her from the plan and make her a 'suspect'. The rest of the family probably never realized that Natsuhi wasn't actually acting. She was probably intended to take the suspects role (by the killer's suggestion) and the killer falsely told everyone else she was in on the plan.

I know this has been mentioned in recent posts as well, but why was Eva so violent? Under this theory, she didn't know anyone had died yet. I can understand the concept of her acting angry, but I don't think she'd go so far as to throw coffee and teacups, as well as the Kinzo slander towards her that everyone accepted.

Originally Posted by Knicknevin

The killer had taken Krauss from his room and detained him someplace, and after threatening Natsuhi, killed Krauss and then hunted down the other 'victims' where they were hiding.

-snip-

Either way, Natsuhi evades Erika's notice, and escapes from the room, only to be found by Erika and dragged back to the parlor, where she does her whole detective show. To everyone's surprise, Natsuhi breaks down and admits to the murders of the maid and the baby. But then Battler makes some rather creepy 'It's all useless' statements, and Natsuhi gasps. End.

What was the killer's motive? Why did they play along with the show and then kill people afterwards? If they really wanted to kill, why wait? Why threaten Natsuhi, kill Krauss, but not kill Natsuhi herself? If the answer to that question is "to frame Natsuhi," why did they kill Krauss at all, much less immediately after the phone call? Presumably they did not know for sure that Natsuhi would be cornered so quickly, so it should be useful to keep him as a hostage.

Originally Posted by Knicknevin

Obvious suspects: Battler. Kyrie. Both of them hindered Erika at a few key turns that might have brought things into a new light. Battler in particular.

Battler-kun isn't the culprit. Battler-kun didn't kill anyone. This can be said of all games.

What is Kyrie's motive? It shouldn't be money, because her son just found 10 tons of gold.

Originally Posted by Knicknevin

Less obvious suspects: Eva. She was the only one whose emotions seemed genuine this episode aside from Natsuhi. Also: Anyone who agreed to Battler's explanation for how Kinzo escaped his room and prevented Erika from countering.

Why would she kill George?

Originally Posted by Knicknevin

Even less obvious suspects: Hideyoshi. If he faked his death, he had plenty of time to go kill the victims. Also, he put on a show in that locked room despite there not being anyone to benefit from it. Unless he knew Natsuhi was in the closet.

Same as above.

Originally Posted by Knicknevin

Impossible suspects: One of the other victims. They were all killed by other people. So one of the apparent victims killing the others and then committing suicide is out of the question.

All deaths are homicides, but not all deaths occurred at the same time, so it should still be possible for one of them to kill some of them and then be killed by another person. As a result, these people can't be ruled out for that reason.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by ElderKain

Also take into consideration of Rudolf's talk in his work office about money at the start of Ep4.
That is a bog point of why Rudolf is in need of the money as well.

Don't you mean at the start of EP 2.

Rudolf needs money because of the lawsuit. That's the only reason stated and in EP 2 it was made clear he probably needs at least 1 million - not sure if it's yen or dollars, but considering his lawsuit is with an American company I think it would be USD.

[Knicknevin]

Originally Posted by Arkwright

I know this has been mentioned in recent posts as well, but why was Eva so violent? Under this theory, she didn't know anyone had died yet. I can understand the concept of her acting angry, but I don't think she'd go so far as to throw coffee and teacups, as well as the Kinzo slander towards her that everyone accepted.




What was the killer's motive? Why did they play along with the show and then kill people afterwards? If they really wanted to kill, why wait? Why threaten Natsuhi, kill Krauss, but not kill Natsuhi herself? If the answer to that question is "to frame Natsuhi," why did they kill Krauss at all, much less immediately after the phone call? Presumably they did not know for sure that Natsuhi would be cornered so quickly, so it should be useful to keep him as a hostage.


Battler-kun isn't the culprit. Battler-kun didn't kill anyone. This can be said of all games.

What is Kyrie's motive? It shouldn't be money, because her son just found 10 tons of gold.



Why would she kill George?



Same as above.



All deaths are homicides, but not all deaths occurred at the same time, so it should still be possible for one of them to kill some of them and then be killed by another person. As a result, these people can't be ruled out for that reason.

Posting from my phone at work now, hehe, so I can't get too fancy here. First of all, with regards to Eva, it might have all been an act. She may simply be prone to overacting. While violence against Natsuhi is implied, it might not be as severe as it was made to look. And Eva has never liked Natsuhi. Maybe she just got carried away. Also, if Natsuhi was kept in the dark in this, maybe Eva was as well.

As to the rest: I'm mostly operating under the assumption that Kyrie is the killer/mystery caller. Just pointed out the rest to cover the bases. As to motives... We know that Kyrie has a number of shady contacts with some talent at digging up dirt. She sent these people to find some dirt on Krauss, but found something else as well- the baby Natsuhi was given 19 years ago.

Now, let's think about things for a second. By her own admission, Kyrie has spent the last 18 years seething with jealousy after Asumu gave birth and married Rudolph, while Kyrie miscarried. She lost her man and her baby in one fell swoop. Now, while she's investigating Natsuhi and Krauss, her contacts find out that Kinzo took a baby from the Fukuin House 19 years ago, and that only days later both the baby and one of the maids were dead. She might have even pried the truth out of one of the servants, like Kumasawa.

So she's just found out that not only was Natsuhi happily married for years, she was given a wonderful baby and she threw it away. Literallly. How will Kyrie react? Somehow, I don't think the expression 'going nucular' would do it justice

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Knicknevin

Now, let's think about things for a second. By her own admission, Kyrie has spent the last 18 years seething with jealousy after Asumu gave birth and married Rudolph, while Kyrie miscarried. She lost her man and her baby in one fell swoop. Now, while she's investigating Natsuhi and Krauss, her contacts find out that Kinzo took a baby from the Fukuin House 19 years ago, and that only days later both the baby and one of the maids were dead. She might have even pried the truth out of one of the servants, like Kumasawa.

So she's just found out that not only was Natsuhi happily married for years, she was given a wonderful baby and she threw it away. Literallly. How will Kyrie react? Somehow, I don't think the expression 'going nucular' would do it justice

When she found out about Natsuhi's baby near the ending of the game she seemed very complacent about it. Everyone seemed to be that way really. Although she did say that love could easily become a reason to kill. Still I do understand what you're saying.

[Knicknevin]

Originally Posted by Marion

When she found out about Natsuhi's baby near the ending of the game she seemed very complacent about it. Everyone seemed to be that way really. Although she did say that love could easily become a reason to kill. Still I do understand what you're saying.

Well, I'd assume that whoever made the plan had been waiting patiently for Natsuhi's confession, and didn't want to be obvious about their reaction. And everyone did look pretty surprised by Natsuhi's outburst. That was probably not part of their script. Battler going into 'It's all useless' mode probably signified him realizing that Natsuhi had been tricked. He probably even knew who did it.

[DKnight768]

Surely somebody though of this before and it's already been discussed, but I've not read the whole thread, sorry.
What do you think about this blue truth of mine?

During the family conference, there was no knock at all. One or more people acted like there was a knock on the door, when there was absolutely no sound. The rest, if any, herd nothing but but assumed it happened because the others said so or acted that way.
It is stated that 'no one noticed anything strange'... 'However, Shannon and Kanon turned around with surprised looks on their faces'. So at least those two pretended to hear something. Rudolf also reacted, but after they did.
This was exactly when the clock was about to hit 24:00, so the people responsible for the 'illusion' of a knock knew when to act.
The second knock can be explained the same way as the first.

I'm trying to figure out the letter part. Kanon opened the door and Rudolf opened and read the letter... both of them acted in the nonexistent knock part, so this smells fishy too... here's another blue truth for you.

The letter was never laying on the hallway. The first people that entered the hallway after the 'knocks' just pretended to find it there, and by the time the rest saw the letter, it was in possession of one of the schemers and not on the floor.

And a different approach, just in case...

Otherwise, there could be more than one letter, so the one laying on the hallway could be a fake one, that was switched with the real one during the time lapse between the discovery and the opening.

Also, a little bonus.
Only Rudolf read the letter. He could've made up the contents. Only Beatrice's signature was shown. Therefore Rudolf may be in it too.

I don't have enough proof yet but allow me to ramble...
I think Kanon is the real culprit.
I've been very suspicious of him since the beginning (I'm also pretty sure Shannon is his accomplice)... but as I said I still don't have enough proof ... soon I'll reread all the episodes with this approach, but I think it fits. Lots of things can be explained this way, like 'zombie' Kanon, human Beatrice (the one with the cane), access to stuff in Kinzo's study (ring, stakes, etc)... Besides, their alibis are really poor most of the time. And Kannon (or Shannon) could perfectly be Natsuhi's son, or a relative of him with a grudge (they'd came from the same orphanage..). They wouldn't have a problem slaughtering the Ushiromiyas, except for George (that's why Shannon ends up dying sooner or later, because she betrays Kanon to help George). Kanon complete lack of empathy, awkward behavior, and bad dissimulated hate towards his masters makes for the perfect serial killer... it's almost too obvious. Most other characters have something to lose by killing everybody, as there's always a beloved one amongst the victims, but Kanon only has Jessica (and Shannon who I already explained), and their relationship is very complicated... I didn't believe any of that ghost crap in ep2(I think it was ep2)... he killed Jessica in her room.
Rudolf is also weird. I think he knows too much about Kanon and Shannon and how they're involved in Battler's past, so these two are blackmailing him to act as their agent too. That's why he says he'll die, because he's decided to reveal the secret in spite of a mortal threat. Maybe Rudolf isn't the only one being blackmailed.
Just another example... Natsuhi said her favourite season was Fall to Shannon. She may've told Kanon, or Kanon could've been eavesdropping. They also have access to Natsuhi's room. Both of them could make those calls, as the voice was young but its genre was not identifiable.
Ooops, I just noticed I'm using this practically as a notepad for brainstorming, so I'll stop. Sorry, this post was going to be only about those blue lines

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Marion

Going a bit off topic, I decided to replay EP 5 and noticed a major contradiction.

In this cap Kyrie said that they need money. The fact that they wanted to pressure Krauss about giving some and then decided to use Kyoto people to investigate him means it's probably urgent.

But in these caps from EP 2 she apparently wasn't even aware that they needed money urgently.

This is really odd. EP 5 suggests Kyrie knows Rudolf has a lawsuit on his hands or at least has issues with money, but in EP 2 when they talk about Suit-Beato coming she said that she doesn't know about it at all.

That's why I said it was the dirty trick.

The dirty trick: The scenes before 4 Oct 1986 were fake (including Hideyoshi telling Eva about the possibility of Kinzo's death, Rosa's meeting with other siblings and Natsuhi receiving the first phone call. ALL FAKE), which would not be the case if meta-Beatrice was the GM. But Lambda did it.

[Tyabann]

She seems to know about the money issues in Ep1, though.

And as a trick... that really isn't that "venomous", you know?

Nor would it have been used in Ep3, most probably...

[ijriims]

The existence of a separate plan from the 19th mysterious man could change a lot, if he was shown in EP3.

[Knicknevin]

Hehe... Time to take refuge here. The spoilers from Episode 6 are already piling up in other boards.

So here's my take on the letter incident. Pretty much old news I think, but still:

Bypassing the 'who' and 'why' for now, I'd rather address the 'how'. We weren't read the exact contents of the letter this time around, but from what Rudolph read aloud and the general response of the others who looked at it, the gist was the same. However, this time around, the letter contains Kinzo's signet ring, signifying the headship of the family. Battler is urged to put it on, and the family recognizes him as the new head. (Note the fact that he does not make any red statements regarding Kinzo here. For example, he doesn't pull out the 'inherited name' card on Erika. Probably wouldn't work anyway though...)

The only other time the epitaph was solved, Eva received the ring as well, though 'Beatrice' appeared to give it to her in person. Take that however you like. She left the ring for Battler in an envelope however, and delivered it by a dubious method.

Regarding the delivery... well, best to go check out the red yourself. There are numerous places. The amount of red used is pretty expansive, but a few points emerge: Noone inside the dining room, nor Krauss, Natsuhi or Genji made that knock. Noone in the mansion placed the letter. This is elaborated on for some time.

I'm not gonna quote all the red here so I'll cut to the chase. Someone who was in the guesthouse at 24:00 placed that letter. The red states that people outside the mansion couldn't do anything inside it once the family conference started, but that doesn't exclude someone who hadn't left yet. This person lingered around inside the mansion until sometime after 23:00, set the clock ahead, dropped the letter and knocked on the door. They then let themselves out and locked up behind them. All they have to do is set the clock back the following morning before anyone else notices it's running fast.

I'd guess that either Nanjo left the letter and locked the door with Genji's keys (those were missing from his 'corpse', remember?) or else Kumasawa left it. Gohda is possible but seems unlikely. The cousins are also possible, but also don't feel right for being the person Kinzo entrusted to deliver his ring when the true heir to the house appeared. Jessica maybe. But she seems opposed to the idea of the headship going to the person 'most suited' to it, since she knows it's probably not her father...

Note that the person who left the letter and knocked on the door doesn't have to be the person who actually wrote it. The letter writer might not have been able to deliver it themself (caught up with the cousins, still in the meeting etc).

As far as I can tell, this theory doesn't violate the red in any way. Essentially, the trick here is that while the red closes off anyone from placing the letter or knocking at 24:00, it was never stated that the knock or letter happened at 24:00. We only have the clock to trust on this, and it may be wrong. As for "Why change the clock?" it's simple- to create an alibi for the person who set it. For example: If Nanjo put the letter down and knocked at 23:40, then booked back to the guesthouse, someone in the guesthouse could see him coming in and expose him. But if the people picking up the letter hear the clock ringing midnight just as the knock comes on the door... They'd ask where everyone was at midnight. And our naive little detective started hanging around with Nanjo at just that time.

[Auria]

@Jan-Poo's epitaph theory
This one is the best solution I've read so far. Okay, there are some weak points but you know them yourself and I think these "all pieces come together" thing is pretty nice displayed with this way of thinking.. back in times when I've spent a lot of time on the epitaph after reading episode 4 I tried out streets and railways for river, but only recently a friend (who's an anime only viewer, but he has started the novel and is interessted in solving the epitaph) suggested we should take another try at the railway thing (the first time I researched I couldn't find the kogane station, I can't remember but I probably searched careless for something different then 黄金 lol) and we discovered this thing. Going ten stations back and forth (which was supported by the "10 points of the journey" in the epitaph back then, but it's pretty much confirmed by Rosa's words in ep 5 now) there were the stations "Rebun" and "Kojōhama". Rebun rung a bell because of the letters, and Kojouhama was just strange (seriously, with Rebun you could relate to the epitaph but koujouhama, the hama is the only thing I can really relate to Rokkenjima, there is a beach ). But okay, we had "Rebun" as starting point and "Kogane" as endpoint back then.. but we really failed to do anything more, since we lack Kanji skillz and foundation from the other parts of the epitaph, didn't knew how to continue.. okay that was the dramatic story of the pain inside my heart.
You worked out something really awesome instead. I support your theory! :0 It would be really really awesome if one could tell Ryuukishi that an italian umineko reader figured out a lot of the epitaph too.. murr ~

The taiwan theory always seemed strange theory because the foundation was "Kinzo's hometown is Taiwan!".. yeah, sure and about Enoura, you wouldn't need the whole epitaph for it..

[incko]

greetings,
this is my first post on animesuki ever,
but after finishing ep. 5 yesterday there are simply too many questions for me,

so I really hope that you guys can help me a little bit!


first of all,
was this " enlightenment" battler had really just the realization that he and beato love each other?

and was this love the reason for him to somehow became the new golden witch?
this doesn't quite connect for me.
well it is somehow romantic,
but I think I still don't get the concept of this "world"
why does battler "give up" everything he fought for (denying witches and everything and becoming a witch himself) just because of this love?

and how does he even manage to get all this "power" just because of the knowledge about this love?

Is this Answer he found during his "death" really as simple as this "love"?

And didn't Battler in theory lose this game because he accepted the witch (himself being the witch?)


and one last question,
I think I should put in in the EP. 4 thread, but nevertheless:

What was this last incantation of Beatos before the Episode ended,
with Beato just rising one Arm?
I believed that this would somehow play a role in the next games...


Oh and one other thing.
I read somewhere that there are many people who believe that there are connections between higurashi and umineko especially after EP 5,
but hey, I didn't see any of these?

[Vegitto-kun]

Well we don't know what the "answer" is I doubt it will be something as lame as omg I love her

same as with the actual solution of the epitaph, battler knows it but we don't

[Geekodot]

Originally Posted by incko

greetings,
this is my first post on animesuki ever,
but after finishing ep. 5 yesterday there are simply too many questions for me,

so I really hope that you guys can help me a little bit!


first of all,
was this " enlightenment" battler had really just the realization that he and beato love each other?

and was this love the reason for him to somehow became the new golden witch?
this doesn't quite connect for me.
well it is somehow romantic,
but I think I still don't get the concept of this "world"
why does battler "give up" everything he fought for (denying witches and everything and becoming a witch himself) just because of this love?

and how does he even manage to get all this "power" just because of the knowledge about this love?

Is this Answer he found during his "death" really as simple as this "love"?

And didn't Battler in theory lose this game because he accepted the witch (himself being the witch?)


and one last question,
I think I should put in in the EP. 4 thread, but nevertheless:

What was this last incantation of Beatos before the Episode ended,
with Beato just rising one Arm?
I believed that this would somehow play a role in the next games...


Oh and one other thing.
I read somewhere that there are many people who believe that there are connections between higurashi and umineko especially after EP 5,
but hey, I didn't see any of these?

Spoiler for end of ep 5:

As far as I can see, Battler solved the mystery and he now understands everything that happened and how the gameboard is constructed... so he knows the "truth" and because of that, he becomes the game master (the one who understands everything and makes the games) and he will construct the future games instead of Lambdadelta and therefore, he also becomes a witch/sorcerer.

[Chaho-Chi]

I have a question since I just finished Episode 5 and its bugging me a little

At the end does Battler know who's the killer only, just his sin, the epitaph or everthing all together?

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by ayu-smepai

I have a question since I just finished Episode 5 and its bugging me a little

At the end does Battler know who's the killer only, just his sin, the epitaph or everthing all together?

Everything.

------------------------------------------

Now I think about it. The dirty trick may be the scenes showing BeatoXBattler....