Medaka Box [Manga]

[Guernsey]

Zenikichi is irrelevant you know that.

[Libros]

Originally Posted by Guernsey

Zenikichi is irrelevant you know that.

The saddest part about that statement is that it is 1000% true. It couldn't possibly be any more correct. Not even kidding right now. Zenkichi could have done absolutely nothing more than what he has already done. Could his zeroing out luck or any random event from happening ability have helped at all here? Nope. Could his parasite vision have helped? Nope. Could his kicks have helped? Nope. Could his status as Student council president have helped? Guess what? The answer is still no. It's just sad to see a character that useless.

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by Libros

The saddest part about that statement is that it is 1000% true. It couldn't possibly be any more correct. Not even kidding right now. Zenkichi could have done absolutely nothing more than what he has already done. Could his zeroing out luck or any random event from happening ability have helped at all here? Nope. Could his parasite vision have helped? Nope. Could his kicks have helped? Nope. Could his status as Student council president have helped? Guess what? The answer is still no. It's just sad to see a character that useless.

Nah man Zendagawd is going to save the day and the manga is going to be called Zenkichi Box in a few issues time.

[Wolfenstein]

Originally Posted by KLGChaos

Wouldn't Zenkichi be a perfect person to learn styles? After all, the main basis of them is being able to understand the human heart, something that Medaka has trouble grasping, but seems to be his biggest strength?

True enough. The Zenkichi who delivered that speech to the students of Hakoniwa, under the protection of Devil Style, was almost too human, imho.

Although I don't think the poor guy is learning a style anytime soon.

Originally Posted by Guernsey

Zenikichi is irrelevant you know that.

So sad, but so true.

Originally Posted by Libros

Could his zeroing out luck or any random event from happening ability have helped at all here?

If you're referring to Devil Style, I actually wonder about that.

Devil Style also had the awesomely stated ability of neutralizing the inherent Pluses and Minuses of Fate, basically made it so that fate couldn't interfere with events.
This is why Ajimu referred to him as a Zero, and why she said that he'd abandoned all the privileges of a main-character.

More importantly, it's also why he was able to beat Medaka in the first place.

And, if you recall, Iihiko is the sort of main character that always wins. He was a complete Gary Stu who once saved the entire world, he was the prototypical hero. Ajimu indicates that that's why he's so powerful. Since she stated that in a clash of main characters, the most heroic one will in. Saving the World > saving Hakoniwa.

But the root and essence of their power is still fate, being the main character who always succeeds.

So I can't help but wonder how powerful Iihiko would really be when unaided by fate. Medaka should've trumped Zenkichi in a popularity contest, normally, but without aid from, well, God, I guess, she got 2% of the votes.
Of course assuming that Zenkichi has lost Devil Style, which I think that, while a travesty, is likely.

Ah sorry for using that to mumble my thoughts. This isn't a response to anything you actually said.

[DawnEmperor]

Why bring up Zenkichi's uselessness? Can really any of the characters do jack shit against Ihiko besides Medaka?

[Randrak42]

It would actually be an interesting kick in the nuts for Zenkichi if someone just suddenly came up and told him "Medaka died because your Devil Style prevented her from always winning."

[Wolfenstein]

Originally Posted by Randrak42

It would actually be an interesting kick in the nuts for Zenkichi if someone just suddenly came up and told him "Medaka died because your Devil Style prevented her from always winning."

Would definitely be interesting in my view.

Originally Posted by DawnEmperor

Why bring up Zenkichi's uselessness? Can really any of the characters do jack shit against Ihiko besides Medaka?

I guess Libros just venting a general dissapointment. We all know everyone was useless compared to Medaka there. May her sueness rest in peace.

Except Nienami the Goddess, but I guess she's holding backonher style or something.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Randrak42

It would actually be an interesting kick in the nuts for Zenkichi if someone just suddenly came up and told him "Medaka died because your Devil Style prevented her from always winning."

At least we'd get some acknowledgment that it exists again!
But really, who's left that even knows about Devil Style? Naze and Hanten'in, right?

Originally Posted by Wolfenstein

Except Nienami the Goddess, but I guess she's holding backonher style or something.

I can't wait until we find out what her deal is. She's obviously hiding something.

[Guernsey]

Originally Posted by Randrak42

It would actually be an interesting kick in the nuts for Zenkichi if someone just suddenly came up and told him "Medaka died because your Devil Style prevented her from always winning."

It would had been except that the later chapters were nothing but coincidence. Zenikichi sort of got killed two arcs ago and we don't know what happened to his Devil Style since.

Originally Posted by Wolfenstein

Would definitely be interesting in my view.



I guess Libros just venting a general dissapointment. We all know everyone was useless compared to Medaka there. May her sueness rest in peace.

Except Nienami the Goddess, but I guess she's holding backonher style or something.

Kanome could had done something with his style yet he didn't do anything aginst Iihiko.

Originally Posted by DawnEmperor

Why bring up Zenkichi's uselessness? Can really any of the characters do jack shit against Ihiko besides Medaka?

Because Zenikichi didn't really do anything that would help anyone yet alone Medaka as of late. Zenikichi could fare well against Normals and Specials but against Abnormals, Minuses, Not Equals, Styles and Iihiko, he gets stomped. Zenikichi is Kumagawa lite, he can win but he cannot win of his own accord and when he loses it is usually to make someone else look good.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Guernsey

Kanome could had done something with his style yet he didn't do anything aginst Iihiko.

Kamome's Style seems to work in tandem with his two Skills, which is why his whole combat style is called the "Kamome System".
While that injured and without being able to set up the system, I doubt he can do anything.

[DawnEmperor]

@Guernsey Does his victory against Munakata(and no, I don't really think "Munakata not really wanting to kill" should downplay it considering the strategy adaptation)and Nienami, winning the election, snapping back Medaka II not mean anything? Granted, he's certainly not the strongest character given the absurd levels in the series, but he has some pivotal roles in the series.

Besides, why does he need to specifically achieve something alone? Part of his character is being able to accept others

[Libros]

Originally Posted by Wolfenstein

Would definitely be interesting in my view.



I guess Libros just venting a general dissapointment. We all know everyone was useless compared to Medaka there. May her sueness rest in peace.

Except Nienami the Goddess, but I guess she's holding backonher style or something.

Is it odd that throughout this series I've sort of been hoping Zenkichi would, how can I put it...match up to the rest of the group? I mean, by himself, he's, I guess anyway, superhuman. He knows savate, has the devil thing among other strengths like patience, kindness, and is just generally a good guy, and under normal circumstances, should have things going for him, he could be president of the fucking world with no problems but in this story he's just..dogfood. I hate that.I just hope he has finally, after the long and painful fall finally hit rock bottom in uselessness , so he can finally improve. Since it doesn't seem like he'll improve until he hits that point or at least till he realizes and understands he's at that point and tries to do something about it. Like a pokemon that only evolves into a legendary at level 100 and gains stupidly off the wall stats but until then has to use 40 in all stats until then. In the end you could have just leveled a Medaka/Kuma/Ashinin/ Shiranui in half the time and gotten the same if not better results at lower levels(Note to self: use less pokemon analogies ). /officially end rant of disappointment in Zenkichi.

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by DawnEmperor

@Guernsey Does his victory against Munakata(and no, I don't really think "Munakata not really wanting to kill" should downplay it considering the strategy adaptation)and Nienami, winning the election, snapping back Medaka II not mean anything? Granted, he's certainly not the strongest character given the absurd levels in the series, but he has some pivotal roles in the series.

Besides, why does he need to specifically achieve something alone? Part of his character is being able to accept others

Um... yes. They don't mean anything. You already mentioned Munakata doing everything in his power to avoid killing, not to mention his inherent lack of skill with weapons; Nienami's style explicitly makes her do things that are less likely, which means that she only lost to Zen because of how useless he was; he only won the election because Ajimu is all about doing the impossible and she was supporting him (more directly because of Hanten's skill creation skill), ie: he was Ajimu's pawn and anyone else would have also worked; and Medaka snapped herself back with mind-reading powers. Not to mention that "snapping back" has later been shown to be morally ambiguous at best since the election victory was all about undoing the damage Zen did there.

Zenkichi's story is one of meaningless victories. That's his entire character arc. This is no less important to who he is than Medaka's winning everything and Kumagawa losing everything. He can sympathize with him, sure, but he's not important and never will be (unless something drastic happens to him analogous to Medaka's "death" just now).

[Wolfenstein]

Originally Posted by Libros

Is it odd that throughout this series I've sort of been hoping Zenkichi would, how can I put it...match up to the rest of the group? I mean, by himself, he's, I guess anyway, superhuman. He knows savate, has the devil thing among other strengths like patience, kindness, and is just generally a good guy, and under normal circumstances, should have things going for him but in this story he's just..dogfood. I hate that.I just hope he has finally, after the long and painful fall finally hit rock bottom in usefulness, so he can finally improve. Since it doesn't seem like he'll improve until he hits that point or at least till he realizes and acknowledges that point. Like a pokemon that only evolves into a legendary at level 100 but until then has to use 95 in all stats until then. /officially end rant of disappointment in Zenkichi.

I see what you're getting at.

But I don't particularly agree with an extremely powerful Zenkichi, at least, not one in the same way that Medaka, Kumagawa or Ajimu are extremely powerful.

I think that if you just gave him an extremely powerful abnormalitie(s) to rely on, he'd lose part of that normality and that deep understanding of the human heart that he gained - or at least it'd be contradictory to that.

I'd like Zenkichi's strenght to come from that, just like it always has.

And, as a bright poster stated before, a style seems to fit him perfectly, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Clarste

he only won the election because Ajimu is all about doing the impossible and she was supporting him (more directly because of Hanten's skill creation skill), ie: he was Ajimu's pawn and anyone else would have also worked;

Ahem.

Someone is forgetting these little pages;

Spoiler:

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As Ajimu herself said; the reason for Zenkichi's crushing victory for Medaka, came from him and him alone. Plus, you know, he's the one who thought of and presented his thoughts in speech-form to the students.

There's nothing demeaning about a victory were your friends had been helping you in the side-lines. Zenkichi knows his limits, he has a skill for that, actually. it's because he realizes his limits that he has friends, and a council to aid him. That's not the same as accepting a meaningless victory or a defeat.
And his victory, while unsatisfying to us readers because Medaka was not destroyed like we wanted it, carried meaning to Zenkichi. Alot of it, actually.

Accepting those limits, and finding a path to victory anyway, is what he's all about, not that his entire accomplishments in life has been unimportant and meaningless like his character.

*Like against Kei, where he set a trap before-hand.

*Like against Nienami, who not only had a weakness to bluntness, but was not using her style to full power.

*Like against Medaka, where he couldn't beat her under the universe's current rules, changing those around with Devil Style.

This manga is far above such things as shitting on people's hard work.

Sure this all boils down to opinion, but sounds like a much more accurate interpretation that just handing out a "meaningless" stamp to a character's life, don't you think?

Besides, all this depends on the character's interpretation of victory. Like Anshin' said.

Originally Posted by Guernsey

It would had been except that the later chapters were nothing but coincidence. Zenikichi sort of got killed two arcs ago and we don't know what happened to his Devil Style since.

For the recond, though, I agree with this.

But this has to do with more than just Zenkichi, although he is a big part of it.

Since the last two arcs, the manga hasn't reflected it'self the way one would want or expect, save for a select few chapters.

I don't know why he re-hashed the plot-point of Medaka's sueness just to trash it again(albeit completely), in chapter 178. We kinda already had that in the True Flask Plan Arc. Which gave us two arcs that felt terrible, for the most part.

Nevertheless, I agree with what you said. The amount of disregard to the past changes in the True Flask Plan arc has been turning a certain amount of people off. Alot, if you can count online forums, alot of which I visit, that voiced distaste on that.

[Libros]

Originally Posted by Wolfenstein

I see what you're getting at.

But I don't particularly agree with an extremely powerful Zenkichi, at least, not one in the same way that Medaka, Kumagawa or Ajimu are extremely powerful.

I think that if you just gave him an extremely powerful abnormalitie(s) to rely on, he'd lose part of that normality and that deep understanding of the human heart that he gained - or at least it'd be contradictory to that.

I'd like Zenkichi's strenght to come from that, just like it always has.

And, as a bright poster stated before, a style seems to fit him perfectly, in my opinion.




Ahem.

Someone is forgetting these little pages;

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

As Ajimu herself said; the reason for Zenkichi's crushing victory for Medaka, came from him and him alone. Plus, you know, he's the one who thought of and presented his thoughts in speech-form to the students.

There's nothing demeaning about a victory were your friends had been helping you in the side-lines. Zenkichi knows his limits, he has a skill for that, actually. it's because he realizes his limits that he has friends, and a council to aid him. That's not the same as accepting a meaningless victory or a defeat.
And his victory, while unsatisfying to us readers because Medaka was not destroyed like we wanted it, carried meaning to Zenkichi. Alot of it, actually.

Accepting those limits, and finding a path to victory anyway, is what he's all about, not that his entire accomplishments in life has been unimportant and meaningless like his character.

*Like against Kei, where he set a trap before-hand.

*Like against Nienami, who not only had a weakness to bluntness, but was not using her style to full power.

*Like against Medaka, where he couldn't beat her under the universe's current rules, changing those around with Devil Style.

This manga is far above such things as shitting on people's hard work.

Sure this all boils down to opinion, but sounds like a much more accurate interpretation that just handing out a "meaningless" stamp to a character's life, don't you think?

Besides, all this depends on the character's interpretation of victory. Like Anshin' said.

Alright, I guess I used a bad Pokemon Analogy. What I want from Zenkichi is for him to not reach top tier(that's medaka and everyone else remotely important in the arcs the story goes through generally exceptions would be like the student president election one), no, that's too high a jump from his place in the Medakaverse right now. It's like telling a cat to explode and then transform into a Tiger and actually be dissapointed/shocked that it something that absurd didn't happen. No, all I want is for him to be useful. Any style that allows him to contribute to the overall welfare or success of the group's mission instead of just calming Medaka/other deadly female when furious down when she goes berserk every odd while. And channeling captain obvious every odd while. Maybe kicks that could break through walls or healing, or Evil eye that knocks out abnormals/Zeros/anyone of your choosing(person reading this) that's all. I put the legendary pokemon there because well..everyone from Kuma to Medaka to Iiihiko is well above that level and it seems like you have to be there to fight in that league, not well maybe but at least survive 2-4 shots and land decent damage to enemies above assistant body gaurd of the 2013th body gaurd.

Zenkichi is like the guy in this video.

He struggles with grunt level opponents. I find that unacceptable for someone in the main group. He may not be the best fighter but come on. True they are Medakaverse level grunts so to be fair they are pretty strong but still if he's got no strength, then go for skill or strategy, healing or long range fighting become a freaking wizard or something. It just sucks that it's taking so long for him to figure out where he's meant to be on the power chart. And great, I'm ranting again..Ugh.

[Lupus753]

Wolfenstein, those pictures aren't showing up. Is this a problem on my end or your end?

[Wolfenstein]

Originally Posted by Libros

Alright, I guess I used a bad Pokemon Analogy. What I want from Zenkichi is for him to not reach top tier(that's medaka and everyone else remotely important in the arcs the story goes through generally exceptions would be like the student president election one), no, that's too high a jump from his place in the Medakaverse right now. It's like telling a cat to explode and then transform into a Tiger and actually be dissapointed/shocked that it something that absurd didn't happen. No, all I want is for him to be useful. Any style that allows him to contribute to the overall welfare or success of the group's mission instead of just calming Medaka/other deadly female when furious down when she goes berserk every odd while. And channeling captain obvious every odd while. Maybe kicks that could break through walls or healing, or Evil eye that knocks out abnormals/Zeros/anyone of your choosing(person reading this) that's all. I put the legendary pokemon there because well..everyone from Kuma to Medaka to Iiihiko is well above that level and it seems like you have to be there to fight in that league, not well maybe but at least survive 2-4 shots and land decent damage to enemies above assistant body gaurd of the 2013th body gaurd.

Zenkichi is like the guy in this video.

He struggles with grunt level opponents. I find that unacceptable for someone in the main group. He may not be the best fighter but come on. True they are Medakaverse level grunts so to be fair they are pretty strong but still if he's got no strength, then go for skill or strategy, healing or long range fighting become a freaking wizard or something. It just sucks that it's taking so long for him to figure out where he's meant to be on the power chart. And great, I'm ranting again..Ugh.

I think it's fine to rant now and then. Your complaint isn't unheard of and it isn't completely ridiculous.

You simply want him to be more useful when it comes to a combat scenario. Of course, it's hard because Zenkichi is a "normal" guy(who can run up buildings but you get me).

But, hey, he did improve intellectualy.

Remember when he cracked Medaka's code, like, instantly? Something the resident genius, Naze, couldn't do right off the bat?

Maybe he just felt a physical improvement wouldn't have been as effective than an emotional/intellectual one. He was getting stronger to beat Medaka, and his victory over her definitely didn't involve beating her to a pulp.

Regardless, as long as Zenkichi dosen't get a plus or a minus and becomes over-powered through those, I wouldn't mind to see him, and other characters, become more useful in combat, since Medaka is pretty much the only one who fights the villains nowadays(again...ugh). But, again, I think that won't happen. Mostly because I think nishio likes that Zenkichi is weak, and his strenght comes more from his will-power and decisions than actual power.

Originally Posted by Lupus

Wolfenstein, those pictures aren't showing up. Is this a problem on my end or your end?

Ah, that would probably be my end. Let me see if I can fix those:

Spoiler:

[Lupus753]

^Thanks, Wolf. I can see them now.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Guernsey

Zenikichi sort of got killed two arcs ago and we don't know what happened to his Devil Style since.

I don't think there's been any indication that anything has changed with regards to Devil Style. People were speculating previously that his Altered God Mode (Zenkichi Ver.) had been made from it, but the latest battle with Shiranui cleared that up that it was actually Parasite Seeing which she converted.

Originally Posted by Wolfenstein

This manga is far above such things as shitting on people's hard work.

Sure this all boils down to opinion, but sounds like a much more accurate interpretation that just handing out a "meaningless" stamp to a character's life, don't you think?

Besides, all this depends on the character's interpretation of victory. Like Anshin' said.

While I totally agree with you that Nishio's intention is not to shit on the hard work of people, I do think that one of the very recurrent themes of the story (particularly Zenkichi's story) is that pure effort alone cannot always transfer into important results or significance. That is one of those common shounen themes/ideals which Nishio has used Medaka Box to criticize implicitly. It's something of an irony.

Remember at the start of the series? One of the points where Medaka and Zenkichi were highlighted to "understand" each other was that they shared an ideal where hard work could accomplish anything. Rather, any opportunity to work hard was ideal. Their belief in this reasoning was given as the reason why they chose Maguro's "hellish training" instead of the "sleep while I make modifications" route before attacking the Flask Plan. It was also her belief in this attitude which let Medaka believe back then that she is "not anyone special, just a normal girl".

However, in the end (as Anshin'in revealed in her talk with Kumagawa) it is not effort or ideals which determine victory in Shounen manga. Instead, the answer is simple and cruel: victory belongs to those with power, the "special", the "chosen", the "main characters". That is the concept through which Zenkichi exists as a metafictional criticism.

Put another way: Zenkichi exists, in many ways, as an example of a "perfect" shounen main character. He has all the qualities of one: hard working, determined, dedicated to a positive ideal. He's great at making friends, great at connecting to others, great at making the audience sympathize with him. Nonetheless, he is not the main character--and it is precisely through this contradiction that Nishio reveals the falsehood, the shallowness of shounen manga. Only the actual main character wins; only the actual main character matters. In the sense that "main characters" are the lucky chosen ones who have special talents, backgrounds, or opportunities, perhaps this is not so different from reality.


The most impressive and interesting result for Zenkichi, in terms of character development, is that he was forced to realize this. Thanks to Anshin'in, thanks to the True Flask Plan. And on that occasion, rather than choose to become just like any other main character, chosen and blessed by some special "talent" or circumstance or ability, Zenkichi chose to go another way instead. Zenkichi chose to reject the benefits of the main character system/trope/convention, choosing principle over self-benefit. If the world really is so unjust and unequal as to determine people's fates by sheer luck and unfair advantages--then he would not self-servingly grab onto a chance some arbitrary being had given him, to conveniently place himself above other people (especially, particularly, a person he loved and admired in the first place).

If you think about it though, in some ways what Zenkichi's solution actually was is rather cruel. Devil Style acts almost in the same way as BookMaker in that instead of raising Zenkichi himself up, it pulls other people down to his level. It's just that instead of directly acting on some other person's abilities, Devil Style works on the more nebulous, indirect concept of "fate".

(This comparison can act as a direct explanation for why Kumagawa couldn't defeat Medaka, but Zenkichi did. Despite the fact that Kumagawa successfully used BookMaker to even his and Medaka's abilities, as a "villain" against a "main character" he was nonetheless fated to lose. However, by obtaining a skill which directly cancelled fate and choosing a fight against Medaka which avoided a contest of ability, Zenkichi managed to bring about a win.)


However, the point to be made is that Zenkichi has chosen to directly reject what, in reality, determines how to make yourself matter or to win. Zenkichi has chosen to reject god-given luck, or advantageous talents or abilities. In essence, the effect of Zenkichi's decision was to say "I do not need to be a main character; to matter in the grand scheme of things, or to win. I choose to instead live as myself, as a normal person like my fellows and those around me, and take pride in whatever I make out of my life in that manner." Absolutely a human and inspirational message. However, at the same time, it's a decision which by definition removes any necessity to make him look good, feed him impressive or significant wins in the story, or portray him as in any way a major character.

In terms of growing, becoming strong, or developing as a character, in many ways Zenkichi's story arc is already over. There is no need for Zenkichi to ever become stronger or more significant as a character than he is now, because he has already decided to uphold his current role and position in reality/the Medaka Box universe. As a result, any further results or involvement he will have in the story will have to come solely from what would be feasibly natural or make sense for a guy like Zenkichi to achieve in reality.

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

...

Yeah, that's what I meant. It'd be entirely against his character to become something else.