2012-03-19, 14:17 | Link #28181 | ||
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Quote:
So one could imagine the scenario as: Shannon-as-Beatrice sets up the party and the adults play dead. George kills them for real. Jessica's death is faked to sniff him (or the culprit, if unknown to Shannon) out, and to scapegoat Kanon to see what George does when he has someone to deflect blame to. Nanjo and Kumasawa's "death" is also faked, but they are later genuinely killed. George, Gohda, and Shannon go to Natsuhi's room, where George kills Gohda by surprise. Shannon, realizing he's the culprit, kills him. She then arranges to kill herself to create an "impossible" crime scene. No one else dies after this moment, and if Jessica remains alive, she doesn't make contact with anyone. Hell, maybe it was Jessica up in Kinzo's study, where she went to hide after her "death." She tells Battler everything she knows, but due to missing details and Shannon's fake room setup, Battler concludes that the whole story is impossible and gives up. Or maybe he does figure it all out and acknowledges the "magic" behind the ploy. I don't know, don't ask me! Quote:
A more complex reformulation would be something like: How many times can you fold a piece of paper? The answer ranges anywhere from "zero" to "an infinite number of times" depending on what you assume the piece of paper looks like and is made of, what shape it is, and how you define a "fold" (in half was never stated!). If you know that I meant a piece of ordinary 8.5" x 11" notebook paper, you know the answer I wanted, and that answer is right. But assume other parameters from unknown information and you get a different answer which is also right. Now apply this to ep1-4. Understanding Beatrice's heart means knowing she wants to take the blame, ergo "Shkanon dunnit" is the intended answer. However, it may well be that there are other, unintended answers which are also correct, and not in the pseudo-correct sense that ep5's Natsuhi conspiracy was. My point is that one of these "unintended" answers may well be Ryukishi's or even Yasu's "intended" answer, in that it more closely reflects the truth. If you don't believe Yasu is really guilty in R-Prime, but you do believe she wants to scapegoat herself, wouldn't it be interesting if she also put the truth in there and it works as a solution just as well as the one she was expecting people like Will to reach? It's not like she'd be disappointed in Will for figuring out the answer as she'd meant it. But maybe she subconsciously made sure the true culprit could also be fingered, depending on how you look at it.
__________________
|
||
2012-03-19, 14:28 | Link #28182 | |||
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
|
Quote:
Although I do consider that Claire is the closest thing to a complete Yasuda in the whole games. Yasuda is split into three different people in the games, and through three people we see different aspects of Yasuda. Although I do question if she has nothing to do with Beatrice's Meta-Battle with Battler since she asked the same questions as Meta Beatrice in the end of game 4. Right to the part where she said "who am I". Quote:
Quote:
Also about EP7. Ryukishi mentioned in the interview that throwing the bottles might have been plea for help to stop her from doing the crime. Although given that Meta Beatrice seems to play with the intent/hope to lose and by then end of EP4 begs that Batter finds her heart and kills her by crushing it. The thing I do find noteworthy is that Beatrice wanted Battler to be able to solve her riddles and understand her heart but she also wanted to die. Also all of the piece Beatrice/Yasuda that it seems that all of them die in the end to due explosives. As well that the lack of caring about what happens to her in tea party of EP7. Even in the end of EP8 Beatrice attempts to kills herself by drowning. So I do think that EP7 that she was prepared to lose. It seems that both meta and piece Beatrice seems to display certain level of suicidal tendency. That regardless if Battler discovered the truth or not, that she going to kill herself. Batter compared Beatrice's riddles to a love letter but isn't a suicide note better comparison? |
|||
2012-03-19, 15:52 | Link #28183 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
|
Quote:
Yasu wrote Legend and Turn and then placed them into bottles and threw them out to sea. Therefore, even Meta-Beatrice is a part of Yasu. In a sense, she did keep George from entering the shed on her own. Meta-Beatrice is Yasu's wish to be with Battler again. Quote:
__________________
|
||
2012-03-19, 16:19 | Link #28184 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2012-03-19, 16:32 | Link #28185 | ||
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
|
Quote:
jokes aside, i cannot see Clair as the full Yasu. I think in the tips she was described as an "actor", a piece created and/or placed by Bernkastel. Outside of the tales she is dull and has no personality at all. She is just a "shell" for the memories of Yasu. Well... for example you could compare her to Tohya with Battler's memories, as that is a similar situation. If Ikuko=Yasu is correct, then Beatrice's death is nothing more than leaving the identity of Beatrice behind, as she was only created for her existence on Rokkenjima. But if you don't believe in Ikuko=Yasu, then this discussion has no grounds to be continued on, so i leave it like that for now. Quote:
The meta scenes (excluding the on-gameboard magic scenes) are most likely NOT part of the forgeries. Meta-Beatrice is not part of the story. She is probably either the "forgotten memories" of Tohya, or she is "played" by Ikuko (in this case whether Ikuko is Yasu or not is irrelevant, as Ikuko=RandomStranger could also just "play" Beatrices role). Also your theory disregards the fact, that Banquet and Alliance were released many years later after the incidents by 19^9, which are also part of Meta-Beatrice's game with Meta-Battler, so it doesn't make any sense... Last edited by GreyZone; 2012-03-19 at 16:45. |
||
2012-03-19, 16:54 | Link #28186 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
|
Jumping around at random again, but what are the current theories about the burnt corpse? In EP1, unless one of the FT victims happened to have polydactyly, this would have to be either a fake corpse, someone else's corpse, or Kinzo's corpse, somehow preserved for over a year. All three of these alternatives require a lot of planning, and some person or group of people must have planned for them to be there on the island that day (though they may not have planned to burn the body).
However, does it really make sense for Natsuhi or Genji to do any of these things? Put it this way: in what situation would it be better to have a fake corpse than to pretend Kinzo left on his own? If he just disappeared, it's still very possible that no one on the island knows what happened to him. But if a burnt corpse is found? Sure, he tripped and fell into the furnace, and his sixth toe caught on the door, slamming it shut on him. That the cause of his success would be his undoing, truly a sad tale. Especially when Natsuhi and the servants get arrested for having the only keys to the room with the only furnace on the island.
__________________
|
2012-03-19, 17:20 | Link #28187 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
|
Quote:
The red truth in EP4 ruled out fake corpses and misidentification, so we know up front that in the stories, it really was Kinzo's corpse. On the other hand, that doesn't mean Yasu had to use the real corpse in Prime. If you look at other stuff she's done, her plans didn't really require her to actually murder anyone in Prime, but she converted all of the fake deaths into real ones in her stories, so she could have done the same thing here. Of course, she wouldn't normally know she needed Kinzo's intact corpse that far ahead of time, but since Piece-Yasu is a metagaming witch, that isn't really a problem for her. She can just have Genji help her yoink the corpse and store it somewhere after Natsuhi orders them to dispose of it.
__________________
|
|
2012-03-19, 17:30 | Link #28188 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Natsuhi clearly has neither a practical nor an emotional reason to burn Kinzo's body. As you said, she can't easily get away with it (even assuming there is a real murderer, it may be possible for the police to demonstrate that the real murderer could not have had access to the furnace), and I don't think she would want to (she seems a bit too emotionally invested in all of this to simply burn Kinzo's body).
Furthermore, assuming the truth of the Kinzo conspiracy, Natsuhi gains nothing by having Kinzo turn up dead, even in a situation that allows her to "get away with" concealing his death. The goal is, after all, to hide his death until an opportune moment. There is no indication that the 1986 conference is an opportune moment, at least not for her. If anything, the best motive for burning the corpse - if it is indeed Kinzo's corpse, which is hard to say - would appear to be exposing his death. It's not strictly necessary that it be known that Kinzo has been dead for a while; merely proving him dead at any time creates the inheritance problem. Doesn't matter if he was alive up to the moment he was shoved in there, ultimately. And again, this scenario in no way benefits Natsuhi. So I see no reason Natsuhi would want to preserve the body. Practically, Natsuhi has nothing to gain. Sentimentally, preserving the body is somewhat at odds with hiding the body; thus, it requires some degree of desecration of his corpse, as does retrieving it in order to destroy it. But to believe the corpse is just a prop would be stranger still, regardless of who came up with it. After all, calling attention to Kinzo's death requires you produce a living Kinzo thereafter to show it was all a hoax. Unlike the living people on the island faking their deaths, no one is actually capable of making a living Kinzo appear unless he is in fact alive. Assuming he isn't, anybody utilizing a fake or substitute corpse is incapable of producing a living Kinzo and thus no matter what happens his death will be exposed. The first question anyone will ask in response to "The corpse was a substitute fake designed to make it look like Kinzo was burned in the furnace" will be "Oh. So where is the real Kinzo?" There are only three responses to this:
__________________
|
2012-03-19, 17:38 | Link #28189 |
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
|
I don't think that the corpse was fake in prime. After all:
"I guarantee that this is Ushiromya Kinzo's Corpse." This statement won a fight where red truth was useless because there was no backing up in the human world. It just has to have some kind of value to be able to satisfy that blue truth. Also there is a good reason to expose it. If Natsuhi (and/or Krauss) is one of the accomplices of Yasu, then the money problem is resolved and Kinzo's illusion is no longer necessary. |
2012-03-19, 17:48 | Link #28190 | ||
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
|
||
2012-03-19, 18:25 | Link #28191 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
|
When playing EP1 demo. I figured that the culprit had Kinzo's body slowly burnt in order to lure them into entering Kinzo's study. Since they got a key from the corpse and thus would think that the safest place would be Kinzo's study since they have both of the keys. We see later that the culprit had a plan if they entered the study.
As for the other episodes, that motive does not really apply. However if EP7 tea party is any indication is that Beatrice had different plans on how to conduct the murders. Maybe using the corpse to lure them into the study was just one of them. Although the culprit or Kanon/Shannon/Beatrice just removed the body from the game so people do not suspect Kinzo instead of of the illusion of the witch. If a letter that has Kinzo's head seal on it appears, creepy occult murders occur based on pattern of the epitaph that Kinzo made and Kinzo has no solid alibi for any of the murders. It is incredibly easy to suspect him if you do not know he was already dead. Speaking of suspecting Kinzo, did anyone find it odd that Rosa never seems to suspect Kinzo at all in EP2? I mean she was willingly to blame Kanon becasue there was no corpse but not the far more suspicious Kinzo? That does imply that Rosa knew for sure that Kinzo was dead |
2012-03-19, 18:47 | Link #28192 | ||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
|
Quote:
Quote:
I can understand him to be willing to cover up 2 murders in EP 7 (Natsuhi and Krauss) because they were an incident of some sort and were directly involved and even Rosa's one (because covering it up was required in order to cover up Natsuhi and Krauss' and they were in a state of shock so they probably weren't thinking straight) but... well, I've hard time accepting he would be told 'hey, I'll kill 5 people, just pretend you saw me in the shed, here's the money' and would reply 'yeah, sure why not?' Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
There are only 2 occasions in which she's really facing risk: - if Battler can move his own piece at will (and the thing about Battler being in control of his own piece is still up to debate) he could have gone checking her corpse... though probably she would have moved the Hideyoshi piece to stop him as Rosa did stop him when Battler tried to investigate Shannon's death in EP 2. - if she were to try and reproduce this in Prime. In that case she has no way of making sure George and Battler both wouldn't try to take a peck at her body, making impossible for just Hideyoshi to stop them both. Quote:
|
||||||
2012-03-19, 22:01 | Link #28193 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
|
@LyricalAura:
You're right, by EP4 we know that it can't be someone else's corpse. However, Umineko stresses how important motive is for murder mysteries, so I think we need a plausible motive for trying to preserve as corpse that long. It is possible that it's Kinzo's corpse, but it's very hard to make that solution work. However, EP5 makes it very clear that Beatrice's red only refers to real corpses. If a wax figure or something was dressed up to look like a corpse, that would violate no red. But I think this brings us to Renall's point. Would Natsuhi or the servants be stupid enough to try and pass a wax figure off as Kinzo, even if it was a very detailed one? I hope not. However, if someone was trying to force an investigation of Kinzo's death, it doesn't matter how crude the fake is. In fact, much safer to use a model than a real corpse, since you won't get in as much trouble if the police figure out you did it. Plus, I'd imagine it'd be immensely easier than digging up a grave or something. Basically, this is the flip side of Yasu supposedly taking huge risks. You win the game almost no matter what happens.
__________________
|
2012-03-19, 22:47 | Link #28194 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
|
Quote:
I guess that would make Umineko a massive experiment in violating Dine's 2nd rule, since it lets Yasu do bizarre things on the game board for the sole purpose of screwing with her reader. There's a lot of things that make me think this is what's going on, but for starters, I'd point you at the telephone conversation with Piece-Beatrice in EP4 and the interaction between Piece- and Meta-Beatrice at the end of that game.
__________________
|
|
2012-03-20, 02:00 | Link #28195 |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
|
Would it not be useful to Natsuhi to actually have Kinzo's real corpse if she wants to fake his death? Otherwise she'd have to produce a fake 6-toed corpse, or forbid the other family members from seeing Kinzo's corpse (that wouldn't go well), or pretend Kinzo had gone missing.
Natsuhi's best choice depends on the scientific feasibility of preserving a corpse that's been dead for several years in a way that would be undetected and would allow the corpse to seem as though it was dead, say, only a few days. Unfortunately, I'm hardly an expert at corpse preservation techniques. |
2012-03-20, 06:46 | Link #28196 | |
しゆあげいん。
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Rokkenjima stage
|
Quote:
|
|
2012-03-20, 10:25 | Link #28197 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2010
|
Quote:
|
|
2012-03-20, 11:28 | Link #28199 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Quote:
Natsuhi and Krauss absolutely cannot produce a body. If they do, there will be an autopsy or suspicion. Hell, the other siblings would probably demand it be done by multiple physicians. Police will get involved. Lawyers will get involved. The benefit of "Kinzo wandered off one day and we haven't seen him since" is that there is never any way to verify when he died or how. Therefore, there's no reason Natsuhi should ever want the body to even exist. It can never help her. That isn't to say the body wasn't preserved, merely that if it was preserved, it wasn't on her or Krauss's orders. They gain nothing by it.
__________________
|
|
2012-03-20, 15:05 | Link #28200 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
|
In episode 5 Gaap tells Natsuhi she can hide Kinzo in a world where no one will ever find him when they talk about making him go missing. This is just a thought. But maybe he was hidden somewhere, or he was buried, but his body wasn't taken care of very well.
That could explain the smell when they burn his body too. ( though I guess it would smell either way ^^U) I don't know if it would be harder to burn an already rotting body or not, and it sounds gross. But it seems less complicated than mummifying him to me. And it wouldn't matter much how his body looked before, after Yasu burned it. |
|
|