(L) Cross game

[Pellissier]

About the eye-catches, by looking at them you can really tell how much the story is progressing. This is what we had so far:

1) Episode 1. "Kou and Wakaba"

2) Episodes 2-12. "On different planets"

3) Episodes 13-19. "In the same boat"

4) Episodes 20-24. "Teammates"

5) Episodes 25-?? . "Allies"


I was hoping for such a screen to pop out. If you notice, it's the first where they're both smiling, as if their hearts and minds are starting to synchronize

About episode 25, not much development on the relationship department. Still, I found interesting Aoba watching him during the match, particularly the expression she had. She was extremely concentrated and really into the game, you can almost tell it's as she was pitching as well. I believe Aoba sees Kou as "her creation" in terms of baseball (after all he has learned everything from her), hence those eyes when Kou plays are almost those of a mother towards her child, observe, notice the mistakes, eventually report and work together to fix them. Also see how she coldly yet rationally rejected Mizuki's criticisms to Kou's "doing poorly". In other terms, for Aoba nobody is entitled to criticize "the pitcher Kitamura Kou", except her of course, since during their trainings she manages to massacre him at the slightest error (never in mean ways though, her criticisms are always constructive, at most provoking when she uses her "Kitamura-senpai" mantra ).
The "person Kitamura Kou" is a different matter, not stricly related to the "pitcher". But she's certainly been wondering about him in that aspect as well. Besides, when you focus so much your attention on another person, something is almost inevitably bound to happen.

[poko-kun]

just like kou, he's been secretly watching aoba since waka told him to follow aoba's training.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Originally Posted by Agent86

You are not watching the same show that most of the people here (and I) are watching. The scene between Kou and Azuma in ep 17 where they are discussing the photograph makes how Kou felt about Waka crystal clear (unless you were reading a bad translation, I suppose). And is there anyone in the Kitamura or Tsukishima households that has a single doubt about how Waka AND Kou felt about each other? I think Nomo has a better understanding of Kou and Waka's relationship than you do.

That is only in your head or in your fantasy world. He did not reply at all. Which means two things.

He loved her. Or -

He never loved her. Which is why Azuma said something that is an indication that aoba and kou are making it harder on themselves from a third party's(azuma's) point of view.

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

You see, this is a problem I have with "plot devices" and "tropes" that seem to be popular now-a-days. My problem is that there are people like you who view an anime and pick out plot devices and such instead of involving yourself with the plot. Here's something that you're probably not aware of, but just about everything out there has a "plot device" and "tropes." You can't avoid it considering our source of entertainment.

I have no problems with plot devices if "done correctly". This is not done correctly.

Originally Posted by apropervillain

Before my father died he gave me a list of things to do and to accomplish. Needless to say I would feel like a bad son if I wasn't doing or completing that list. People have different ways of honoring the dead, for me it is fulfilling the last wish of a dying man.

In Koh's case, he did not expect the death of Wakaba, so completing the list of gifts is probably his was way of fulfilling Wakaba's last (or should I say second-to-last) wish. I totally understand where Koh is coming from because I would and have acted in a similar manner. Nothing is wrong with honor and respect.

Maybe it's because I'm Asian? I don't want to bring ethnicity up as an issue, but I see some already have, so I'll stop right there.

But in the end, we are all entitled to our opinions. I say if you're unhappy with an aspect of the plot or characters, voice or opinion and argument, listen to what others have to say, then agree to disagree. But this is the internet after all...

Oh and Koh admitted to loving her to Azuma, but not to Wakaba herself. He was under the impression she'd be there so he had an entire lifetime to tell her, but we all know how that turned out.

You are wrong for one simple reason. This is not the case. You are saying, Kou is honoring Wakaba's wishes when she was alive. If this is the case then Kou would never be with Aoba in the future episodes. The thought of being with Aoba will never cross his mind and he would do everything to avoid Aoba. When Wakaba was alive, she wanted Kou all to herself. If Kou is doing what you are saying which is honoring or respecting Wakaba's wish, then Aoba will never be in the picture.



I'm going to say it now. KOU NEVER ADMITTED TO LOVING WAKABA in that episode!!!
Kou didn't reply at all. Azuma said something around "i see" or "i understand" then he said "you guys have it tough". Azuma was referring to Aoba and Kou.

The way I see this is that Kou and Aoba may have liked each other or have an attraction for each other since childhood. But wakaba is interfering with that. When Wakaba died, the wall between them that was Wakaba became even bigger.

Originally Posted by poko-kun

just like kou, he's been secretly watching aoba since waka told him to follow aoba's training.

Or he has been watching Aoba or always been looking at Aoba way before Wakaba.

[jpwong]

Huh, that's weird, I would have figured they would have been alternating the backgrounds on those eye catches, but they only do it on the second one. The manga volumes and the DVDs have all been flipping between green and orange every other volume, seems a bit off that they stopped doing it for the eye catches.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy

That is only in your head or in your fantasy world. He did not reply at all.

You may have a hearing, seeing or comprehension problem. Sure, Kou's non-committal grunt can be seen as non conclusive proof (not to me, by the way), but honestly, to say he didn't reply at all is a fallacy.

[poko-kun]

So I'm not the one who thinks Kou didn't love Wakaba in romantic way.
They were too young to know what love interest is.
Kou loved Waka, I won't deny the fact, he sure did.
BUT in what way?

[Guardian Enzo]

All of those eye-catches are straight off the manga covers, of course.

[MeoTwister5]

Love isn't always sexual you know. I believe Kou loved Wakaba but not in a romantic sense.

[Agent86]

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy

I'm going to say it now. KOU NEVER ADMITTED TO LOVING WAKABA in that episode!!!
Kou didn't reply at all. Azuma said something around "i see" or "i understand" then he said "you guys have it tough". Azuma was referring to Aoba and Kou.

Kou: Betsu ni shinjinaku temo iindakedo sa... (You might find it hard to believe...)
Kou: ...ore no koto daisuki datta ze, kono ko. (...but the girl really loved me.)
Azuma: Omae mo ka? (Was it mutual?)
Kou: ...aa. (...yes.)
Azuma: Sou ka. (I see)
Azuma: Shindoi na, omae tachi. (It must be a burden for you guys).

You're right that Azuma was referring to Aoba and Kou when he said "omae tachi" in that scene. He immediately realized that the burden fell hardest on Kou AND Aoba. Kou thought that remark was meant to be directed at him only, so he was confused by "you guys."

Originally Posted by BetoJR

You may have a hearing, seeing or comprehension problem. Sure, Kou's non-committal grunt can be seen as non conclusive proof (not to me, by the way), but honestly, to say he didn't reply at all is a fallacy.

I don't see that as a non-committal grunt from Kou. That's a low-key "yes" from a guy that's probably never had to admit out loud how he felt about Wakaba - everyone else that mattered (sorry, Senda) already knew. That syllable uttered in that context means "yes," and 99+% of Japanese speakers would interpret it that way. (Yes, BetoJR, I know you know that already, but I just want to clarify it for others.)

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Love isn't always sexual you know. I believe Kou loved Wakaba but not in a romantic sense.

So do I. Some people may disagree, but I always thought Kou was meant for Aoba all along, and not Waka. The tragedy only put a higher degree of difficulty on things.

But that's not the point I'm arguing with FuzzyWuzzy, but whether or not he replied to Azuma's question, effectively answering the topic and rendering it moot. Kou did love Wakaba - either romantically or not, I don't really care.

And Agent86, thanks for the transcription and explanation. Maybe this will help clarify matters - or not.

[Proto]

They were too young to know what love interest is.

Word of god



Maybe at least with Waka it was a little more serious, what with the faster hormonal development in women and whatnot.

[poko-kun]

Maybe (most of) girls grow faster than boys. ^^

[Agent86]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

So do I. Some people may disagree, but I always thought Kou was meant for Aoba all along, and not Waka. The tragedy only put a higher degree of difficulty on things.

Hmm. I think Kou and Waka were destined to be together. It's only the tragedy that makes Kou and Aoba a potential couple - they were closest to Waka, and they are each other's best hope for healing the wounds left behind. It's their mutual love of baseball and Waka that is knitting them together now - it was a different story when Waka was alive.

I'll try to avoid going batsh!t crazy on you, though

[golthin]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

You may have a hearing, seeing or comprehension problem. Sure, Kou's non-committal grunt can be seen as non conclusive proof (not to me, by the way), but honestly, to say he didn't reply at all is a fallacy.

he is not aware of certain signals in language. For him, until Kou comes out and said the sentance "I loved Wakaba" he didn't love her.

[Proto]

@Pellissier screencaps: Am I the only one who feels a void in his stomach each time he sees that 4-1 clover in the series title?

[BetoJR]

Well, I always thought Aoba and Kou ignited more sparks, myself. Maybe it's just a personal preference, tho.

[Agent86]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Well, I always thought Aoba and Kou ignited more sparks, myself. Maybe it's just a personal preference, tho.

Sure, there's enough sparks between Kou and Aoba to start a forest fire. But IMO the destiny was between Kou and Waka, a quiet, mostly unspoken (hey, they were 5th graders), but determined (in more than one sense of the word) love.

It probably is a matter of personal preference. I admire Aoba, and think that she's the most interesting character and the heart of the storyline. Aoba is what makes Cross Game tick. But I don't like her as much as I do most of the characters.

Heck, in some ways I wouldn't mind seeing an eventual Kou-Momiji pairing over Kou-Aoba. But I don't have any major problems with Kou-Aoba.

[Pellissier]

Originally Posted by poko-kun

just like kou, he's been secretly watching aoba since waka told him to follow aoba's training.

Well that was implied. The difference is that while Kou never really had a particular grudge towards her, Aoba used to seriously hate him. So while for Kou that might be a result of a natural flowing of things, for Aoba is a really drastic change.

That's why I usually empathize and try to look things from Aoba's perception, because she is the one whom has to fight the most, to overcome her old feelings.

Originally Posted by Proto

Word of god

For those who want to see that animated, that scene was reproduced faithfully in the anime, episode 20 at about 11:30 in Anbu subs or 12:10 in CA subs.

Originally Posted by Proto

@Pellissier screencaps: Am I the only one who feels a void in his stomach each time he sees that 4-1 clover in the series title?

TBH, I didn't notice the minus 1 clover particular. Must be because I saw that first eyecatch just once, never saw the four leaf together again, so didn't focus much of it.
It's incredibly saddening indeed, what's even sadder is that there isn't a missing part (or it would just be a sort of regular clover) it's as those in the 4 leaf clover were four green lamps representing the four sisters, and since one died one lamp it still there, but turned off. Subtle, but incredibly effective.

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Well, I always thought Aoba and Kou ignited more sparks, myself. Maybe it's just a personal preference, tho.

I'm quoting you (whose position I already understood the first time you mentioned it a week ago anyway ) but it's just to throw my 2 cents into this discussion.

Personally, I don't buy the "Kou & Aoba from the start" theory. I've always firmly thought that Kou and Wakaba were simply born for each other. The fate was a great factor, both born on june 10th, in the same hospital, in near beds. Neighbours, grew together, in school together, spent whole days together. Everything together. I believe it was a very genuine and in its way romantic form of relationship (I mean, isn't it romantic to spend your life with a destined person from its very first moment until the end?). Fate is cynical though, and all that was built in 11 years was destroyed in a moment.

In all of this, I can't see what role Aoba could have had, if Wakaba didn't die. On the contrary, her grudge towards Kou could have grown even bigger. There's also no real counter-proof about Kou following the baseball path. What we do know at the moment is that he's trying his best to achieve Wakaba's dream. But if Wakaba stayed alive, there's no certaintly that things would have followed the same flow, a lot of variables may have happened and somehow Wakaba could have slightly changed her mind about Kou in baseball, hence decreasing her influence on him on that matter.
Also, remember that Aoba's dream is to fulfill Wakaba's dream. If Wakaba was alive, there'd be no dream to pursue and Aoba might have as well joined a girls' school, thus parting ways with Kou.

And even if things turned out like they're now, the sole presence of Wakaba would make every single detail we've seen until now, different. Heck, the "memories" part, having an essential role in the whole Aoba-Kou getting closer, wouldn't even exist to begin with.

Originally Posted by Agent86

It probably is a matter of personal preference. I admire Aoba, and think that she's the most interesting character and the heart of the storyline. Aoba is what makes Cross Game tick.

I think most people think the same, even if they don't like her. Fact is: she's the most complicated character, or simply the one who needs to go through the biggest development.

Originally Posted by Agent86

Heck, in some ways I wouldn't mind seeing an eventual Kou-Momiji pairing over Kou-Aoba.

Earlier in the series, when Aoba was still so icy, I thought at that possibilty too. Personality-wise, Momiji also seems much more similar to Wakaba (and Ichiyo) than Aoba.

[Agent86]

Originally Posted by Pellissier

Fact is: she's the most complicated character, or simply the one who needs to go through the biggest development.

There's also a tragic aspect to Aoba's character: her devotion to and love for a sport that doesn't love her back (i.e. won't let her play in the Koshien). And whatever parallels or impact that may have on her personal relationships.

Personality-wise, Momiji also seems much more similar to Wakaba (and Ichiyo) than Aoba.

I see Momiji as having some of Aoba's disrespect to Kou, on the surface. But deep down Momiji knows Kou will come through when it matters. And is comfortable with that knowledge. Aoba is anything BUT comfortable with those kind of thoughts about Kou.

[BetoJR]

I, for one, always thought destiny was overrated. Also, I think that's actually one of the points of the story, here. But, maybe, I just don't like the "perfect girl" trope much (even if, concerning Waka, this didn't hold true at all).

Oh, and please, no Kou x Momiji shipping, will ya? She's got suitors already.