[Manga] Who is Tobi?

[Teru987]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

We are learning more and more about Tobi. He thinks there is no hope for this world, so it seems he doesn't believe in any clan or village or idea any more, he believes only in his own plan. So in whatever clan he was it doesn't matter to him any more, as he said to Naruto, it doesn't matter what happens now because when his plan succeeds then nothing what happened in the past will matter any more. He is talking about his own version of ending the world. If he plans on doing such a thing then why would it matter to him what happens with his former clan.

Tobi also says that he has no name and he doesn't want to have one, he just wants to remain a nobody. I think whatever clan and village was he part of, he decided to forget the whole thing, and don't care about it any more. So he "thinks poorly" of whatever clan he was part of, he doesn't even want to use his own name any more. Now that i think of it, not wanting to use a name is probably a hint that he had a name, and his name was well known, and he was probably part of a well known clan. And why would he be angry to the world and konoha as a senju? Maybe because he thinks that the will of fire and the peace with the Uchiha and the Senju being in charge of Konoha did lead to his clan going extinct. The only known Senju descendant that is alive is Tsunade. While the Uchiha survived until the massacre, the Senju seem to be extinct. So maybe Tobi thinks that it was all because of Hashirama's will of fire, maybe he was the Senju who opposed Hashirama's will to create an alliace between them and the Uchiha. If that were true he would think the same way as Madara: his own clan betrayed him. So it's not impossible to create a story like this, to make of Tobi a Senju. But i think it's more probable that he is either an Uzumaki or for example the Sage of 6 paths had a 3rd son, one who didn't become a legend, who didn't have a name in history.

And i think that we already see the first signs of the story becomeing less Uchiha centered, and becoming more Sage of 6 paths centered. The flashback of the Kyuubi with the Sage, the sharingan turning into rinnegan, the clear signs that Naruto is the new savior that the sage was talking about. If the story become centered around the Sage then Tobi should not be an Uchiha but someone else, someone who is somehow connected to the sage himself and not just a random Uchiha. The sage's brother, the sage's 3rd son, the sage's rival, the soul of the 10-tails, all of these are a better choice than yet another Uchiha.

That would be a really good thing to have. The third son no one knew about. Now one of his descendants he pissed off at the world and wants his own peace under him. It would add alot more to the story kind of like rock lee not having any powers and trying to outshine sasuke and neji. Something like that but with the sage and his sons

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by Teru987

That would be a really good thing to have. The third son no one knew about. Now one of his descendants he pissed off at the world and wants his own peace under him. It would add alot more to the story kind of like rock lee not having any powers and trying to outshine sasuke and neji. Something like that but with the sage and his sons

@Ero-Senn1n: didnt tobi admit to Konan that he was an uchiha? no real reason to lie her...

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

@Ero-Senn1n: didnt tobi admit to Konan that he was an uchiha? no real reason to lie her...

I don't remember what you're talking about (and thus may edit this post once I've double-checked), but even if he did, he in fact had all the reason in the world to lie to her. Given the fact that she thought he was Madara and he wanted it that way, do you not think it'd be a bit odd if he were to say he wasn't an Uchiha? If she already knew he wasn't Madara we could probably take a claim like that at face value and assume he is in fact an Uchiha, but given the way things were I don't really think we can.

Edit: Okay, I checked. I'm kind of embarrassed that I forgot about that, but my point still stands.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Akashin

I don't remember what you're talking about (and thus may edit this post once I've double-checked), but even if he did, he in fact had all the reason in the world to lie to her. Given the fact that she thought he was Madara and he wanted it that way, do you not think it'd be a bit odd if he were to say he wasn't an Uchiha? If she already knew he wasn't Madara we could probably take a claim like that at face value and assume he is in fact an Uchiha, but given the way things were I don't really think we can.

Edit: Okay, I checked. I'm kind of embarrassed that I forgot about that, but my point still stands.

Since at that point the readers didn't know he is not Madara, the author couldn't make him say that he isn't, despite the fact that he reveals many secrets to Konan saying that she will die anyway so he can do so. We can say that the evil guy revealing his secrets is lame, or that it's lame that he reveals secrets but not that specific secret, but in the end the whole thing was just a plot device used to reveal the information that at point in time the author wanted to reveal to the reader. So i don't think that Tobi's little speech there gave any information about his real identity. On the other hand, if he was some random Uchiha (some theories that people had in this thread: Sasuke's father, Obito, Izuna, Danzou's teammate, etc.) then why would he keep his name a secret? He should just proudly say to Naruto that he is Uchiha X. Also if he is not Madara or Izuna then why would he want to kill his own clan? I don't think any other Uchiha would have such a strong desire for revenge on his own clan. Plus he doesn't really care about Sasuke, he is just using Sasuke.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

We are learning more and more about Tobi. He thinks there is no hope for this world, so it seems he doesn't believe in any clan or village or idea any more, he believes only in his own plan. So in whatever clan he was it doesn't matter to him any more, as he said to Naruto, it doesn't matter what happens now because when his plan succeeds then nothing what happened in the past will matter any more. He is talking about his own version of ending the world. If he plans on doing such a thing then why would it matter to him what happens with his former clan.

Tobi also says that he has no name and he doesn't want to have one, he just wants to remain a nobody. I think whatever clan and village was he part of, he decided to forget the whole thing, and don't care about it any more. So he "thinks poorly" of whatever clan he was part of, he doesn't even want to use his own name any more. Now that i think of it, not wanting to use a name is probably a hint that he had a name, and his name was well known, and he was probably part of a well known clan. And why would he be angry to the world and konoha as a senju? Maybe because he thinks that the will of fire and the peace with the Uchiha and the Senju being in charge of Konoha did lead to his clan going extinct. The only known Senju descendant that is alive is Tsunade. While the Uchiha survived until the massacre, the Senju seem to be extinct. So maybe Tobi thinks that it was all because of Hashirama's will of fire, maybe he was the Senju who opposed Hashirama's will to create an alliace between them and the Uchiha. If that were true he would think the same way as Madara: his own clan betrayed him. So it's not impossible to create a story like this, to make of Tobi a Senju. But i think it's more probable that he is either an Uzumaki or for example the Sage of 6 paths had a 3rd son, one who didn't become a legend, who didn't have a name in history.

And i think that we already see the first signs of the story becomeing less Uchiha centered, and becoming more Sage of 6 paths centered. The flashback of the Kyuubi with the Sage, the sharingan turning into rinnegan, the clear signs that Naruto is the new savior that the sage was talking about. If the story become centered around the Sage then Tobi should not be an Uchiha but someone else, someone who is somehow connected to the sage himself and not just a random Uchiha. The sage's brother, the sage's 3rd son, the sage's rival, the soul of the 10-tails, all of these are a better choice than yet another Uchiha.

very nice points here. I wouldn't really mind tobi being some of the choices you listed at the end. it would basically be equivalent to him being a new character though, so why would he have to have hidden his face all this time? if he was the lost 3rd son, the juubi's soul, the sage's brother, then nobody would know what he looked like so why hide it? also, all those names should have struck fear into the kage's hearts just like them being told he was madara, so why would he lie and say he is madara? saying he's the RS's son should mean just as much if not more.

it is indeed intriguing as to why tobi is so insistent on saying he is nobody. I think this can be explained if he is madara using a vessel like obito. I do like you're suggestion of him being a disenfranchised former clan member from somewhere else. madara doesn't really strike me as someone who would play his name down, but if we are getting close to the reveal of him being obito, then I can see madara not wanting himself to be associated to some pretty much useless uchiha in his opinion. since the 'real' madara is back, he (as tobi) wouldn't be as eager to claim that tobi is him. the edo-madara version is much more impressive and also I believe that they will merge.

keep in mind that tobi wants to be complete. the obito theory is the only one that makes sense out of that desire imo. the part of him he left in obito would merge with the edo-version to bring madara back in full. i suppose it could be the juubi's soul that wishes to be complete too, but I don't think that's a very satisfying identity for tobi. why would the juubi's soul claim to be madara and not the RS?

[hamstar]

how would you react if tobi declared the 4th ninja war to purposely unite the ninja countries and the whole mugen tsukuyomi thing was just a ploy? Tobi was actually trying to achieve peace through a lie and wasn't actually a bad guy, he just wanted to unit the ninja world through his deceitful ways....wow good writing Kishi, almost as good as the time you made out Itachi to be a nice self sacrificing ninja that killed off his family and his clan for....the greater good. Well, not really.

[prakash123]

Originally Posted by hamstar

how would you react if tobi declared the 4th ninja war to purposely unite the ninja countries and the whole mugen tsukuyomi thing was just a ploy? Tobi was actually trying to achieve peace through a lie and wasn't actually a bad guy, he just wanted to unit the ninja world through his deceitful ways....

this was exactly what i meant when i said that tobi might be related to the sage.

[prakash123]

Originally Posted by prakash123

tobi "MIGHT"i repeat "MIGHT" be a reincarnation of the sage gone nuts as the world is in chaos.thats why he has powers of the uchiha and senju in him.so he wants to change the world but he cant reveal himself as the sage.that is maybe why he is collecting all the bijuus to recreate the 10 tail.well if u guys read this and wonder why did he have to go through all this and wage war to bring peace?well he managed to do one other thing as well.by bring everyone together to from the shinobi alliance and fight for one cause.

there you go

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by hamstar

how would you react if tobi declared the 4th ninja war to purposely unite the ninja countries and the whole mugen tsukuyomi thing was just a ploy? Tobi was actually trying to achieve peace through a lie and wasn't actually a bad guy, he just wanted to unit the ninja world through his deceitful ways....wow good writing Kishi, almost as good as the time you made out Itachi to be a nice self sacrificing ninja that killed off his family and his clan for....the greater good. Well, not really.

Originally Posted by prakash123

this was exactly what i meant when i said that tobi might be related to the sage.

I'm pretty sure that hamstar is pointing out that tobi wanting peace is a bad idea from a writing standpoint. it's repetitive and predictable since itachi went through the exact same retcon transformation into an arguable 'good guy'. despite itachi's methods which are highly questionable, his goals were sincere and he was selfless in trying to achieve them for what he deemed to be the greater good. if tobi does turn out to want peace through morally questionable means then it would be the exact same thing, just on a grander scale. I sincerely hope kishi has more creative plans for tobi than that.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

it would basically be equivalent to him being a new character though, so why would he have to have hidden his face all this time?

Why did the akatsuki leader have his face hidden? For nothing, he was a new character, not even one, but 3 new characters. They were new but they had a strong connection to Jiraiya, here if this Tobi guy has a storng connection to the Sage of 6 paths that would be something similar. I remember all the theories about the leader being the 4th hokage, these theories were similar to the current Obito theories.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

also, all those names should have struck fear into the kage's hearts just like them being told he was madara, so why would he lie and say he is madara? saying he's the RS's son should mean just as much if not more.

Well when Madata tells all the things about the Sage of 6 path to the kages, they initially tell him that it's only a legend, they don't believe he ever existed. But Madara's name had much more impact because they knew who he was, and also that he was a warmonger who lives to fight and to make wars. For example the tsuchikage even feared him when he was young, so some of them even had personal experiences about his power.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

keep in mind that tobi wants to be complete. the obito theory is the only one that makes sense out of that desire imo.

I think the Obito theories are bullshit, but that has already been discussed so many times, and there i wrote why i think it would be stupid story telling, so i don't want to discuss about that since everything that can be said about it has already been said in this thread. So i ruled out the Obito theory right in the beginning, and then went on to guess who else he could be, i think that's more interesting than discussing the Obito theory for the 1000th time.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Why did the akatsuki leader have his face hidden? For nothing, he was a new character, not even one, but 3 new characters. They were new but they had a strong connection to Jiraiya, here if this Tobi guy has a storng connection to the Sage of 6 paths that would be something similar. I remember all the theories about the leader being the 4th hokage, these theories were similar to the current Obito theories.

but pain didnt hide his face (yahiko) from the akatsuki members and others around him. it was just a story telling mechanism to have him in the shadows all the time. his true body was hidden but that had to do with his technique and that it served as an advantage when fighting. tobi hides his face all the time with a mask. it isn't just a lighting placement or a reverse shot or something. he is deliberately hiding his face. so there must be a reason for the mask. either he's recognizable or his face is all mangled and sewn together or something. the 4th hokage had little to no supporting evidence or hints so I dont see how that's comparable to anything. dislike the obito theory all you want. even if it turns out to not be the case, the amount of hints for it is still substantial.

Well when Madata tells all the things about the Sage of 6 path to the kages, they initially tell him that it's only a legend, they don't believe he ever existed. But Madara's name had much more impact because they knew who he was, and also that he was a warmonger who lives to fight and to make wars. For example the tsuchikage even feared him when he was young, so some of them even had personal experiences about his power.

true, but just his actions and capabilities would have easily convinced them he was the RS or his son. At least someone who could suck up sasuke into another dimension and leave 5 kages in the dust after declaring war on them. his being madara is just as implausible to them. madara was supposedly long dead as well.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

but pain didnt hide his face (yahiko) from the akatsuki members and others around him. it was just a story telling mechanism to have him in the shadows all the time. his true body was hidden but that had to do with his technique and that it served as an advantage when fighting. tobi hides his face all the time with a mask. it isn't just a lighting placement or a reverse shot or something. he is deliberately hiding his face. so there must be a reason for the mask. either he's recognizable or his face is all mangled and sewn together or something. the 4th hokage had little to no supporting evidence or hints so I dont see how that's comparable to anything. dislike the obito theory all you want. even if it turns out to not be the case, the amount of hints for it is still substantial.

Wasn't your point that Tobi's face is hidden from the reader? The akatsuki leader's face was also hidden, furthermore it wasn't even his real body. Tobi did show his face to some people already, once he showed to to Sasuke, and apparently Sasuke accepted that he is Madara. He also showed his face to Kisame, who believed he is Madara. The interesting thing is that he had long hair and a different look when he was controlling the mizukage. He can also replace his severed limbs like nothing happened, he did so many times already. When he was hit by amaterasu he came back as if nothing happened. So maybe he can do so with his face too, that means he doesn't have to hide his face because he can change it to whatever face he wants to show. So he can look like an old Madara if he wants to. We also know that he has a large collection of special eyes, and he can replace his eyes when he wants. We have already seen parts of his face, once when he was showing it to Sasuke and once when had to fight Konan. There was nothing recognizable, do you expect that adding a mouth and a nose to what we have already seen will result in some well know character from the past?

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

true, but just his actions and capabilities would have easily convinced them he was the RS or his son. At least someone who could suck up sasuke into another dimension and leave 5 kages in the dust after declaring war on them. his being madara is just as implausible to them. madara was supposedly long dead as well.

He didn't do anything big until then, he even admitted that he is crippled. Now we have seen what Madara is capable of. Then imagine the RS from the legends. Nobody would have believed that he is the RS, because they didn't believe in the RS, and even if they did, they would just say he can't be the RS because he is weak as shit. They believed he is Madara because they knew who Madara was, because Madara would be about 90 years old now (as opposed to an RS who should be several hundred years old by now), and most importantly his story of Hashirama beating him so badly that he is now crippled is beliveable.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Wasn't your point that Tobi's face is hidden from the reader? The akatsuki leader's face was also hidden, furthermore it wasn't even his real body. Tobi did show his face to some people already, once he showed to to Sasuke, and apparently Sasuke accepted that he is Madara. He also showed his face to Kisame, who believed he is Madara. The interesting thing is that he had long hair and a different look when he was controlling the mizukage. He can also replace his severed limbs like nothing happened, he did so many times already. When he was hit by amaterasu he came back as if nothing happened. So maybe he can do so with his face too, that means he doesn't have to hide his face because he can change it to whatever face he wants to show. So he can look like an old Madara if he wants to. We also know that he has a large collection of special eyes, and he can replace his eyes when he wants. We have already seen parts of his face, once when he was showing it to Sasuke and once when had to fight Konan. There was nothing recognizable, do you expect that adding a mouth and a nose to what we have already seen will result in some well know character from the past?

my point is that there isn't much of a reason to wear a mask unless you're hiding your identity or facial scars. he did show it to kisame because he trusted him and like you said, it could have been a fake face for all we know. but he didn't want deidara to see it. why? because he wants it hidden from most characters. what do you think the point of wearing a mask is?

He didn't do anything big until then, he even admitted that he is crippled. Now we have seen what Madara is capable of. Then imagine the RS from the legends. Nobody would have believed that he is the RS, because they didn't believe in the RS, and even if they did, they would just say he can't be the RS because he is weak as shit. They believed he is Madara because they knew who Madara was, because Madara would be about 90 years old now (as opposed to an RS who should be several hundred years old by now), and most importantly his story of Hashirama beating him so badly that he is now crippled is beliveable.

tobi is not weak as shit... if the kages saw a masked akatsuki member flying at them through a forest with 6 bijou at his beck and call by force alone, and summoning gedo mazo among other crazy things, then I think they would believe he was whoever he wanted them to think he is.

[prakash123]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Tobi did show his face to some people already, once he showed to to Sasuke, and apparently Sasuke accepted that he is Madara. He also showed his face to Kisame, who believed he is Madara. The interesting thing is that he had long hair and a different look when he was controlling the mizukage. He can also replace his severed limbs like nothing happened, he did so many times already. When he was hit by amaterasu he came back as if nothing happened. So maybe he can do so with his face too, that means he doesn't have to hide his face because he can change it to whatever face he wants to show. So he can look like an old Madara if he wants to.

this got me thinking.i remembered that when he showed sasuke his face tobi had some aging lines/scar lines on his face.but in the fight with konan when his mask broke and revealed a portion of his face there were no lines.what u said could be true.

go google tobi unmasked and watch the last episode and compare his face.u will see.

[Shiryuu]

Didn't the sensors detect two Tobi/Madara at one point? Don't you think if Tobi was someone else, they would be able to differentiate between the two or even tell if it was a bunshin?

[bhl88]

Chuck Norris.

I'm kidding.... Tobi under his mask looks like some old guy or something.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Shiryuu

Didn't the sensors detect two Tobi/Madara at one point? Don't you think if Tobi was someone else, they would be able to differentiate between the two or even tell if it was a bunshin?

the sensors didn't know what edo-madara's chakra was since they had never sensed it before. it also means that tobi doesn't have madara's chakra (or at least not a significant amount) since they are clearly being sensed as different chakras.

just for the sake of argument, when naruto carried minato and kushina's tiny amount of chakra with him, nobody ever confused his chakra with theirs so this wouldn't rule out madara using a similar tech on obito's body which would now be fused with zetsu's body to create some weird amalgamation of chakra that is tobi

[Daremo Kamiza]

Does anyone remember the story about Shisui??? And "his" eyes?? I believe that it very well could be Shisui. Of course I could be completely wrong, if anyone has any more light on this thought, please follow up. Although I kind of get the feeling that Itachi actually saw him die...but did he really? I dunno. Food for thought.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Daremo Kamiza

Does anyone remember the story about Shisui??? And "his" eyes?? I believe that it very well could be Shisui. Of course I could be completely wrong, if anyone has any more light on this thought, please follow up. Although I kind of get the feeling that Itachi actually saw him die...but did he really? I dunno. Food for thought.

tobi isn't shisui. tobi helped itachi wipe out the clan. shisui died before that. also, the way itachi talks of tobi/madara is in no way relative to the way he talks about shisui. also when danzo was killed, tobi made no mention about it being his eye he wanted back, just that it was shisui's. so no hints whatsoever as to him being tobi basically.

i would like to know more about shisui though. he was oddly made very powerful in flashbacks. i'm still not sure i like the fact he had MS. it seems forced to me.

[TimeMask]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

tobi isn't shisui. tobi helped itachi wipe out the clan. shisui died before that. also, the way itachi talks of tobi/madara is in no way relative to the way he talks about shisui. also when danzo was killed, tobi made no mention about it being his eye he wanted back, just that it was shisui's. so no hints whatsoever as to him being tobi basically.

i would like to know more about shisui though. he was oddly made very powerful in flashbacks. i'm still not sure i like the fact he had MS. it seems forced to me.

Also Shisui gave both of his eyes before the Uchiha massacre happened so if Shisui was Tobi he would have to find a sharingan eye transplant to take part in the Uchiha massacre. When taking this into account it seems like Shusui is 1 of the least likely people to be Tobi.

Tobi may not be a Madara clone despite him acting like Madara when nobody was around since when Deidara was Tobi’s partner we saw Tobi act silly when no one was around so Tobi is just a very good actor.