Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 13 Discussion / Poll

[Christen]

I'm just wondering why they changed the way Rosa gave her story on how Beatrice died from the VN to the anime. The VN indicated that Rosa and Beatrice were climbing down the cliff, and since Beato's clothes will naturally get in the way, she fell easily.

Maybe changing it has a significance

[RikaNipah]

Yeah I agree.
Maybe Rosa just felt like she killed her, because if she didn't encourage her to come out of her mansion then she would never have fell and died.
Without Rosa there would be no evil Beato..we need evil Beato!

[SnEptUne]

This still doesn't make sense. If the old lady is a witch as well, how does she get killed so easily by zombie Kanon in the previous episode?

And just how old is Beato anyway? If she is 10 when old lady was still a witch, does that means Beato is 30ish when Rosa "killed her" because the old lady looks like 70 years old right now. If that's the case, Beato is just a young lady, not a billion years old mummy.

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by SnEptUne

This still doesn't make sense. If the old lady is a witch as well, how does she get killed so easily by zombie Kanon in the previous episode?

And just how old is Beato anyway? If she is 10 when old lady was still a witch, does that means Beato is 30ish when Rosa "killed her" because the old lady looks like 70 years old right now. If that's the case, Beato is just a young lady, not a billion years old mummy.

Spoiler:

Kumasawa hadn't "Awoken" yet, I believe.

And did Beato really look 30ish? I believe she was only about 17-18 by the time Rosa "killed" her.

[jeroz]

that's one part I don't really understand. The relationship between the teacher Beatrice and Kumasawa. If I treat it as symbolism, it's fair to deduct who Beatrice might be. If I purely looks into it from a fantasy perspective, I would need more information to be given in the next episode.

[Leinne]

Originally Posted by jeroz

that's one part I don't really understand. The relationship between the teacher Beatrice and Kumasawa. If I treat it as symbolism, it's fair to deduct who Beatrice might be. If I purely looks into it from a fantasy perspective, I would need more information to be given in the next episode.

Don't worry, next episode will help you undertand more than that, so don't wory

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by SnEptUne

This still doesn't make sense. If the old lady is a witch as well, how does she get killed so easily by zombie Kanon in the previous episode?

And just how old is Beato anyway? If she is 10 when old lady was still a witch, does that means Beato is 30ish when Rosa "killed her" because the old lady looks like 70 years old right now. If that's the case, Beato is just a young lady, not a billion years old mummy.

Genji in the first game said that Beatrice died a lot earlier than 1967

[orion]

Originally Posted by SnEptUne

This still doesn't make sense. If the old lady is a witch as well, how does she get killed so easily by zombie Kanon in the previous episode?

And just how old is Beato anyway? If she is 10 when old lady was still a witch, does that means Beato is 30ish when Rosa "killed her" because the old lady looks like 70 years old right now. If that's the case, Beato is just a young lady, not a billion years old mummy.

I agree with the other spoiler. Beato had to die to fully break the seal and awaken. Maybe Teacher was also sealed and dying in the other 2 episodes finally got her awaken.

Now we are down to 17 visible humans + 1 witch and not 18 humans as we were led to believe so we are missing someone imo.

[Iromaru]

Originally Posted by orion

Now we are down to 17 visible humans + 1 witch and not 18 humans as we were led to believe so we are missing someone imo.

That's a good point. Taking this even further: what if Beatrice don't count "furnitures" as humans? That would mean there are 3+ people on the island we haven't seen yet.

[vandakiara]

Originally Posted by Iromaru

That's a good point. Taking this even further: what if Beatrice don't count "furnitures" as humans? That would mean there are 3+ people on the island we haven't seen yet.

furniture counts as humans, believe me

[Proto]

Originally Posted by vandakiara

furniture counts as humans, believe me

There's nothing in the anime series to prove so, so it actually could go either way (and given how Beatrice is so adamant on not considering furniture as humans it wouldn't be that far fetched. It'd be an interesting twist I say. And yes, I am a game player.

[vandakiara]

Originally Posted by Proto

There's nothing in the anime series to prove so, so it actually could go either way (and given how Beatrice is so adamant on not considering furniture as humans it wouldn't be that far fetched. It'd be an interesting twist I say. And yes, I am a game player.

hmm well I'll quote what was said on the spoilers thread then:

"Just to clarify something I said on the episode 13 thread...

In the Anime episode 13, they changed the red about "There are no more than 18 humans on this island" so that it doesn't include the word human (so just "people" in general, literally speaking).

Maybe this has some significance, but I doubt it. (...)"

the original post can be seen here but it may contain spoilers for some...

well if it's people in general then it's got to mean furniture is included as well... I believe ryukishi07 made that change in the anime so people would stop speculating about loopholes on the red truth...

[orion]

But if the speaker considers furniture as an object and not a person, then the count is still not correct. (After all, the count is coming from the speaker's perspective.) The witch issue also brings on the count issue imo.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by orion

But if the speaker considers furniture as an object and not a person, then the count is still not correct. (After all, the count is coming from the speaker's perspective.) The witch issue also brings on the count issue imo.

It should be made clear.

'Furniture' is a term that witches use to refer to their servants. Because Kinzo is into that sort of thing he calls his servants (Genji, Shannon and Kanon) furniture. Kanon calling himself furniture should be seen more as a complex. You don't actually believe he's a chair, right?

[June 1983]

Seriously, I'm pretty much 99% certain that the count includes "furniture". For a couple of reasons:

1) I'm fairly certain I've read that Ryukishi doesn't want people to fixate on finding weird loopholes in the red truth, as that is a dead end (if anyone remembers what I'm talking about, I think he said something along those lines in an interview?)

2) If you are arguing from an anti-fantasy perspective (which I would assume you are, otherwise, why would you care about figuring out what this new red truth means? Beatrice did it, the end, it doesn't matter how many people are on the island), then there's no such thing as "furniture" which looks human and isn't.

3) Furthermore I should draw your attention to the fact that if you are, again, looking for the anti-fantasy solution, the count does NOT now come at 17 + a witch. Because there's no witch! It's 18 people, and Battler either has to prove that one or more of the 18 human beings that he doesn't want to doubt is the culprit, or somehow prove that one or some of the 18 people he believes to be on the island actually aren't, in order to make room for Mystery Killer "X".

[Marion]

Originally Posted by June 1983

Seriously, I'm pretty much 99% certain that the count includes "furniture". For a couple of reasons:

1) I'm fairly certain I've read that Ryukishi doesn't want people to fixate on finding weird loopholes in the red truth, as that is a dead end (if anyone remembers what I'm talking about, I think he said something along those lines in an interview?)

2) If you are arguing from an anti-fantasy perspective (which I would assume you are, otherwise, why would you care about figuring out what this new red truth means? Beatrice did it, the end, it doesn't matter how many people are on the island), then there's no such thing as "furniture" which looks human and isn't.

3) Furthermore I should draw your attention to the fact that if you are, again, looking for the anti-fantasy solution, the count does NOT now come at 17 + a witch. Because there's no witch! It's 18 people, and Battler either has to prove that one or more of the 18 human beings that he doesn't want to doubt is the culprit, or somehow prove that one or some of the 18 people he believes to be on the island actually aren't, in order to make room for Mystery Killer "X".

What I mean is that Kanon, Shannon and Genji aren't furniture, it's just a complex.

But yes 'furniture' counts to the people count :P

[June 1983]

Originally Posted by Marion

What I mean is that Kanon, Shannon and Genji aren't furniture, it's just a complex.

But yes 'furniture' counts to the people count :P

I wasn't replying specifically to you, but to the people who were speculating they didn't count as humans.

[Arbane the Terrible]

Originally Posted by June 1983

3) Furthermore I should draw your attention to the fact that if you are, again, looking for the anti-fantasy solution, the count does NOT now come at 17 + a witch. Because there's no witch! It's 18 people,

18 _or less_ people. Beatrice said "There are no more than 18 people on this Rokkenjima." The problem there being that we've seen everyone before the killings started...

[RikaNipah]

It's still confusing though. In that group of 18 people there was Kumasawa and she was a witch. Um?..

[RikaNipah]

Sorry for the double post, I get it now.

*nods*