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azul120 · 2009-07-10, 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Redirected from the romance thread.

Lelouch's two worst enemies weren't the world or the Britannians, but his own ego and his love for Nunnally. Both of those things screwed him over worse than anything else by guiding him into unsound action.

If he would have considered himself less infallible and dealt with dangers to Nunners in a more rational frame of mind... things would have turned out differently.

Differently, but not necessarily in success. If Lelouch chose to stay and assist the Black Knights during the Black Rebellion, Nunnally might have later been used as a hostage against him. Not to mention that Jeremiah would still be interfering with Lelouch at that time.

synaesthetic · 2009-07-10, 18:43

Charles wouldn't kill her or use her as a hostage against Lelouch; he considers the whole affair to be beneath him. Only Schneizel would bother doing such a thing, and Schneizel doesn't know that Zero is Lelouch.

Viletta Nu knew, and maybe Charles knew, but Charles wasn't volunteering any information, and Viletta did not know that Zero was Lelouch vi Britannia--she only knew he was a Britannian student.

If Lelouch had thought rationally, he could have won the Black Rebellion and rescued Nunners all at once. But instead he had a BSOD when he heard Nunnally was taken. As a result, he lost the battle, most of the Black Knights, his sister, his life as he knew it and received a free set of fake memories courtesy of dear old Dad.

morbosfist · 2009-07-10, 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Charles wouldn't kill her or use her as a hostage against Lelouch; he considers the whole affair to be beneath him. Only Schneizel would bother doing such a thing, and Schneizel doesn't know that Zero is Lelouch.

Charles explicitly ordered Suzaku to do just that if Lelouch regained his memories, so yes he would. Plus it wouldn't have to be Charles doing it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

If Lelouch had thought rationally, he could have won the Black Rebellion and rescued Nunners all at once. But instead he had a BSOD when he heard Nunnally was taken. As a result, he lost the battle, most of the Black Knights, his sister, his life as he knew it and received a free set of fake memories courtesy of dear old Dad.

It's easy to say that. Now explain it.

synaesthetic · 2009-07-10, 21:22

Really simple. He could have calmly facilitated the transfer of command before running off to rescue his sister. The battle was lost because he abandoned his post and nobody knew who was commanding what. That terse handoff to Toudou was not sufficient. He should have done it properly.

That isn't to say the battle would have absolutely been won this way, but before his BSOD relating to Nunnally's kidnapping, the battle was going very well for the Black Knights. The moment he stopped being cool-headed, everything went downhill.

And no, it was not simply because Lelouch wasn't commanding, it was because nobody was commanding. Units were asking for instructions left and right and were met with silence. Nothing was being coordinated, organization fell into chaos.

morbosfist · 2009-07-10, 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Really simple. He could have calmly facilitated the transfer of command before running off to rescue his sister. The battle was lost because he abandoned his post and nobody knew who was commanding what. That terse handoff to Toudou was not sufficient. He should have done it properly.

And how would you have him do it properly, and more to the point how did he not? Tohdoh is in second in command, and he spent the first part of 18 going over a detailed command structure. In other words, yes, people did know exactly who was in command, they just didn't have the skill to actually succeed. Your accusation is more or less completely unfounded.

Quote:

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

That isn't to say the battle would have absolutely been won this way, but before his BSOD relating to Nunnally's kidnapping, the battle was going very well for the Black Knights. The moment he stopped being cool-headed, everything went downhill.

Everything started going downhill when Jeremiah showed up in an invincible flying orange and stopped Lelouch from taking Cornelia. After that things just got progressively worse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

And no, it was not simply because Lelouch wasn't commanding, it was because nobody was commanding. Units were asking for instructions left and right and were met with silence. Nothing was being coordinated, organization fell into chaos.

When and where, aside from complaints about Zero being missing? Tohdoh was giving orders, but they were very general orders and they were fighting from a disadvantageous position.

I'm sorry, but this scenario you've thought up doesn't work. There was a chain of command and it was followed. They were just in a bad position and didn't know how to deal with it. They're not Lelouch.

azul120 · 2009-07-10, 22:04

Not to mention that Ohgi, who was overseeing the post over at Ashford, got a little careless around Villetta and was shot.

morbosfist · 2009-07-10, 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by azul120

Not to mention that Ohgi, who was overseeing the post over at Ashford, got a little careless around Villetta and was shot.

To be fair, how was he to expect she's shoot him after all the great (implied) sex they'd been having?

He may be thinking with his dick in Turn 19, but it's a genuine surprise in the first season when she puts a bullet in him.

snowdevil_crow · 2009-07-10, 22:28

Yeah, he had no reason to know she'd got her memories back in Stage 24 or whatever it was.

azul120 · 2009-07-10, 22:58

I dunno. She didn't look too happy when she was escorted in. And of course she was an enemy soldier with a case of amnesia. Put the two together and...

Nobodyman9 · 2009-07-10, 23:02

Well, if we're gonna turn this into an "Ohgi is a dumbass" conversation, we may want to take it to the General Character Thread.

Personally, I think Lelouch probably made a bad call during the Black Rebellion.

azul120 · 2009-07-10, 23:28

Didn't mean to turn it into that. Just saying that other things, aside from Lelouch going AWOL, went awry.

Nobodyman9 · 2009-07-10, 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by azul120

Didn't mean to turn it into that. Just saying that other things, aside from Lelouch going AWOL, went awry.

Well, lets not forget Nina and her little bomb episode.

azul120 · 2009-07-10, 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Well, lets not forget Nina and her little bomb episode.

Heh. Though that bore consequences in the subsequent battle for Japan.

I wish Lelouch geassed Euphie into telling him what she knew about Marianne's murder as he did Clovis and Cornelia. That way there would have never been any SAZ massacre.

morbosfist · 2009-07-11, 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by azul120

Heh. Though that bore consequences in the subsequent battle for Japan.

I wish Lelouch geassed Euphie into telling him what she knew about Marianne's murder as he did Clovis and Cornelia. That way there would have never been any SAZ massacre.

That would have been wasteful at the time. As far as he knew she had no reason to be deceitful about the matter.

Nobodyman9 · 2009-07-11, 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by morbosfist

That would have been wasteful at the time. As far as he knew she had no reason to be deceitful about the matter.

Well, not to mention he was planning to use his geass to make her kill him.

morbosfist · 2009-07-11, 00:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Well, not to mention he was planning to use his geass to make her kill him.

That wasn't until later. Under the scenario azul mentions, he would have done this on the island, or at the hotel.

azul120 · 2009-07-11, 00:34

My only reason behind the suggestion was in order to stop that accidental Geass command from ever happening.

But morbosfist is right. It would have been either one of those scenarios where Lelouch would have given the question if at all.

And Lelouch was planning on Geassing her into wounding him, not killing him.

synaesthetic · 2009-07-11, 00:37

I'll chalk it up to bad writing then. Considering all the buildup around Toudou's military genius, it seems an awful lot like an Informed Ability.

Plus anytime in the story when Lelouch commands, the soldiers magically gain combat abilities tenfold what they normally display, and when he's forcibly removed from a battle, they suddenly go retarded.

This is a pretty big wallbanger for me. Come on, Sunrise, Lelouch is not Emperor Palpatine. He's not Bastilla Shan. There's no magical control he's exerting over his troops, no Battle Meditation--the lack of his presence should not make all his troops suddenly behave like green cadets.

snowdevil_crow · 2009-07-11, 00:44

Okay, about the geassing Euphy to shoot him... was he planning to switch with CC, or what? Was he actually going to get her to shoot him and potentially seriously wound him? Because... that's a really stupid plan.

Actually, his original plan there was kind of dumb all around, IMO.

Nobodyman9 · 2009-07-11, 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by azul120

My only reason behind the suggestion was in order to stop that accidental Geass command from ever happening.

But morbosfist is right. It would have been either one of those scenarios where Lelouch would have given the question if at all.

And Lelouch was planning on Geassing her into wounding him, not killing him.

Eh, I dunno. I guess what it comes down to is was there really much of a reason to believe that Euphie knew anything about Marianne's murder. Remember, the Geass is only good for a one time use, so he has to make it count.

But if that's what it's all about is just a way to avoide the massacre, then we could also wish a lot of bad things had never happened. I mean, I wish Lelouch hadn't been so stubborn and listened to Suzaku in Turn 18 (or better yet, maybe he shouldn't have given him the live geass in the first place) And of course I wish Shirley hadn't met up with Rolo in Turn 13. But sometimes that's just the way life rolls.

2009-07-10, 18:43	Link #4642
synaesthetic blinded by blood Author Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Oakland, CA Age: 39	Charles wouldn't kill her or use her as a hostage against Lelouch; he considers the whole affair to be beneath him. Only Schneizel would bother doing such a thing, and Schneizel doesn't know that Zero is Lelouch. Viletta Nu knew, and maybe Charles knew, but Charles wasn't volunteering any information, and Viletta did not know that Zero was Lelouch vi Britannia--she only knew he was a Britannian student. If Lelouch had thought rationally, he could have won the Black Rebellion and rescued Nunners all at once. But instead he had a BSOD when he heard Nunnally was taken. As a result, he lost the battle, most of the Black Knights, his sister, his life as he knew it and received a free set of fake memories courtesy of dear old Dad. __________________ Indie science fiction author and all-around weirdo: Check out my original fiction here! Read an excerpt from my sci-fi novel Binary System!

2009-07-10, 21:22	Link #4644
synaesthetic blinded by blood Author Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Oakland, CA Age: 39	Really simple. He could have calmly facilitated the transfer of command before running off to rescue his sister. The battle was lost because he abandoned his post and nobody knew who was commanding what. That terse handoff to Toudou was not sufficient. He should have done it properly. That isn't to say the battle would have absolutely been won this way, but before his BSOD relating to Nunnally's kidnapping, the battle was going very well for the Black Knights. The moment he stopped being cool-headed, everything went downhill. And no, it was not simply because Lelouch wasn't commanding, it was because nobody was commanding. Units were asking for instructions left and right and were met with silence. Nothing was being coordinated, organization fell into chaos. __________________ Indie science fiction author and all-around weirdo: Check out my original fiction here! Read an excerpt from my sci-fi novel Binary System!

2009-07-11, 00:37	Link #4658
synaesthetic blinded by blood Author Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Oakland, CA Age: 39	I'll chalk it up to bad writing then. Considering all the buildup around Toudou's military genius, it seems an awful lot like an Informed Ability. Plus anytime in the story when Lelouch commands, the soldiers magically gain combat abilities tenfold what they normally display, and when he's forcibly removed from a battle, they suddenly go retarded. This is a pretty big wallbanger for me. Come on, Sunrise, Lelouch is not Emperor Palpatine. He's not Bastilla Shan. There's no magical control he's exerting over his troops, no Battle Meditation--the lack of his presence should not make all his troops suddenly behave like green cadets. __________________ Indie science fiction author and all-around weirdo: Check out my original fiction here! Read an excerpt from my sci-fi novel Binary System!

2009-07-10, 22:04	Link #4646
azul120 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008	Not to mention that Ohgi, who was overseeing the post over at Ashford, got a little careless around Villetta and was shot.

2009-07-10, 22:28	Link #4648
snowdevil_crow Wielder of Cucumbers Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Canada	Yeah, he had no reason to know she'd got her memories back in Stage 24 or whatever it was.

2009-07-10, 22:58	Link #4649
azul120 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008	I dunno. She didn't look too happy when she was escorted in. And of course she was an enemy soldier with a case of amnesia. Put the two together and...

2009-07-10, 23:02	Link #4650
Nobodyman9 Banned Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: U.S.A. Age: 35	Well, if we're gonna turn this into an "Ohgi is a dumbass" conversation, we may want to take it to the General Character Thread. Personally, I think Lelouch probably made a bad call during the Black Rebellion.

2009-07-10, 23:28	Link #4651
azul120 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008	Didn't mean to turn it into that. Just saying that other things, aside from Lelouch going AWOL, went awry.

2009-07-11, 00:34	Link #4657
azul120 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008	My only reason behind the suggestion was in order to stop that accidental Geass command from ever happening. But morbosfist is right. It would have been either one of those scenarios where Lelouch would have given the question if at all. And Lelouch was planning on Geassing her into wounding him, not killing him.

2009-07-11, 00:44	Link #4659
snowdevil_crow Wielder of Cucumbers Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Canada	Okay, about the geassing Euphy to shoot him... was he planning to switch with CC, or what? Was he actually going to get her to shoot him and potentially seriously wound him? Because... that's a really stupid plan. Actually, his original plan there was kind of dumb all around, IMO.