Aquarion EVOL - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

[finalfury]

Mikono's first impression started the hate train most likely. her saving kagura from getting shot was the final straw for some people

[Destined_Fate]

It's easy to hate Mikono because she's the reason her relationship has gone nowhere with Amata and than you have Zessica who has done a ton of things. Doesn't help that Mikono has very weak reasons to loving Amata and Amata has even less reasons to worship Mikono as well. While Zessica had her reasons spelled out over a number of episodes.

And no, Mikjono is a much weaker character than Zessica and extremely underdeveloped. At least she isn't has underdeveloped as her reasons for being with Amata are, that's just been a disaster.

I find that hard to believe considering how you're treating Mikono as a saint. You saying Kagura is your favorite and Mikono isn't doesn't change the message in your post that shows your support for Mikono. Than granting her a pass while not providing any reasons why you're against Zessica or to explain why you believe Mikono is somehow a far superior character when clearly she isn't considering her development has been one of the slowest with only Kagura having her beat in that regard and he isn't even shown anywhere near as much as Mikono has been. If you wish to debate than you should provide depth, if you don't than we'll leave it at that.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Duh, are you not watching the show???? /jk

Nah, Mikono is a despicable bitchslut because a) she's in the way of Amata x Zessica (not that most of these people seem to like Amata at all, but I'm sure that if/when he shows some interest in Zessica everything will be forgiven), and b) it is written in the Big Codex of Fandom that if there are two girls who are rivals in some way you must express your support for your preferred one by hating on the other, otherwise you're not a true fan.

You're now letting your emotions get the best of you. I suggest you drop this since you did say you didn't want to get back in this debate anyway. Considering your responses I believe it's best that you keep your word in that regard.

Originally Posted by finalfury

Mikono's first impression started the hate train most likely. her saving kagura from getting shot was the final straw for some people

Unlike some I gave her a chance but after 21 episodes she's a heartless witch compared to Zessica. They managed to make Zessica extremely likeable and gave her reasons for why she does and feels things but Mikono is still at the "I don't know" phase. How many times do they need her to say that? We get it, she doesn't know why she's doing many of the things she's doing but her hammering it in isn't all that redeeming when Zessica knows why she's doing things and faces the consequences of doing things while Mikono refuses to face the consequences of not doing things.

[finalfury]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

It's easy to hate Mikono because she's the reason her relationship has gone nowhere with Amata and than you have Zessica who has done a ton of things. Doesn't help that Mikono has very weak reasons to loving Amata and Amata has even less reasons to worship Mikono as well. While Zessica had her reasons spelled out over a number of episodes.

And no, Mikjono is a much weaker character than Zessica and extremely underdeveloped. At least she isn't has underdeveloped as her reasons for being with Amata are, that's just been a disaster.

I find that hard to believe considering how you're treating Mikono as a saint. You saying Kagura is your favorite and Mikono isn't doesn't change the message in your post that shows your support for Mikono. Than granting her a pass while not providing any reasons why you're against Zessica or to explain why you believe Mikono is somehow a far superior character when clearly she isn't considering her development has been one of the slowest with only Kagura having her beat in that regard and he isn't even shown anywhere near as much as Mikono has been. If you wish to debate than you should provide depth, if you don't than we'll leave it at that.



You're now letting your emotions get the best of you. I suggest you drop this since you did say you didn't want to get back in this debate anyway. Considering your responses I believe it's best that you keep your word in that regard.



Unlike some I gave her a chance but after 21 episodes she's a heartless witch compared to Zessica. They managed to make Zessica extremely likeable and gave her reasons for why she does and feels things but Mikono is still at the "I don't know" phase. How many times do they need her to say that? We get it, she doesn't know why she's doing many of the things she's doing but her hammering it in isn't all that redeeming when Zessica knows why she's doing things and faces the consequences of doing things while Mikono refuses to face the consequences of not doing things.

Mikono stops being in the "I dont know" phase when she tells Fudou that she is ready for the truth and she journeys with him to find out the truth(Episode 20 and 21).
Zessica's mostly likeable towards the male populace, but her kiss scene with Amata was definately win in a way. She's my favorite character along with Kagura because they are both wild cards, at least in the beginning of the anime. Mikono only irritates me because she is a MC, if she wasn't, I would have just found her boring(please don't label me as a Mikono hater).
Watched Episode 15 again and Kagura is definately win. After rewatching episode 15 again, i realized that my only qualm with Mikono is that she protected Kagura but she has never protected Amata in that same or similar manner. If Amata is the one she loves, then why doesn't she protect him too since she was able to protect Kagura. I no longer mind her protecting Kagura but she needs to protect Amata too for me to accept her character in a better light.

[Zuul]

Mikono's hate is based of the fact Otakus have really high expectations for 2D girlfriends. I really hope they don't apply those criteria to real lifes women because they are bound to be painfully disappointed.

Really she's done nothing wrong apart from being more physically attracted to Kagura -maybe- and being kind of oblivious to Amata's issues and struggles for their relationship.
Nothing really bad here but nothing OTP material either.

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by finalfury

Mikono stops being in the "I dont know" phase when she tells Fudou that she is ready for the truth and she journeys with him to find out the truth(Episode 20 and 21).
Zessica's mostly likeable towards the male populace, but her kiss scene with Amata was definately win in a way. She's my favorite character along with Kagura because they are both wild cards, at least in the beginning of the anime. Mikono only irritates me because she is a MC, if she wasn't, I would have just found her boring(please don't label me as a Mikono hater).
Watched Episode 15 again and Kagura is definately win. After rewatching episode 15 again, i realized that my only qualm with Mikono is that she protected Kagura but she has never protected Amata in that same or similar manner. If Amata is the one she loves, then why doesn't she protect him too since she was able to protect Kagura. I no longer mind her protecting Kagura but she needs to protect Amata too for me to accept her character in a better light.

No she hasn't and she's still going about "I must apologize but I don't know why either" thing even when she's with Fudo. Its gotten very old and hopefully Episode 22 will finally get her to finally "Know" and "Apologize" so she can actually move on to something else.

Zessica is just plain more likeable with both genders for many reasons which were played out over a number of episodes. It's hard not to like her because they tried very hard to get her to this state while Mikono has had no such effort pushed for her to make her anything more than unlikeable compared to Zessica.

I mentioned that before that Amata has nearly died for her multiple times already yet she has shown more concern for Kagura than Amata even though Kagura was the one that almost killed Amata a few times already.

That plays into her inability to do anything on her own until episode 21 when she tells Amata to stay back and wait for her while she goes on a journey all on her own. Though it is sad that she would risk her own safety to protect Kagura but not Amata.

[faiz blaster]

Well, you have to admit that Amata-X-Mikono are simply too boring as a couple. That is probably one of the reasons why people tend to prefer Amata-X-Zessica and Kagura-X-Mikono....

By the way, how popular is the Andy-X-MIX pairing anyway?

[Destined_Fate]

I don't like it because it's too predictable for a tomboyish girl like Zessica to lose to the "Good girl" like Mikono which is used way too often in Anime and that Zessica is simply more developed in her regard for why she loves Amata compared to Mikono. They even have Zessica say that in episode 17 that she's not the type of girl guys want to settle with, just get in bed since many guys have shown an interest in her but only her body and could care less about her as a person. Which may be another reason she loves Amata because he isn't interested in her body like that at all, unless she's teasing him, and is just a really nice guy that's always around that appreciates her for being herself.

Mix is actually very popular despite her getting far less screen time compared to Mikono and Zessica. Her romance with Andy was extremely predictable(He makes holes, she fills them) but they at least managed to get it to work despite less screen time.

[finalfury]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

No she hasn't and she's still going about "I must apologize but I don't know why either" thing even when she's with Fudo. Its gotten very old and hopefully Episode 22 will finally get her to finally "Know" and "Apologize" so she can actually move on to something else.

Zessica is just plain more likeable with both genders for many reasons which were played out over a number of episodes. It's hard not to like her because they tried very hard to get her to this state while Mikono has had no such effort pushed for her to make her anything more than unlikeable compared to Zessica.

I mentioned that before that Amata has nearly died for her multiple times already yet she has shown more concern for Kagura than Amata even though Kagura was the one that almost killed Amata a few times already.

That plays into her inability to do anything on her own until episode 21 when she tells Amata to stay back and wait for her while she goes on a journey all on her own. Though it is sad that she would risk her own safety to protect Kagura but not Amata.

I misinterpreted what you wrote. I thought you meant that Mikono had no idea what to do at all(unable to move forward), so the fudo search serves to counter the misinterpretation i made. i just thought men would like her more than females but i do acknowledge that both genders find her likeable. Ill wait for episode 22 to see whether or not she defects to Kagura completely.

[koalatea]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

I don't like it because it's too predictable for a tomboyish girl like Zessica to lose to the "Good girl" like Mikono which is used way too often in Anime and that Zessica is simply more developed in her regard for why she loves Amata compared to Mikono. They even have Zessica say that in episode 17 that she's not the type of girl guys want to settle with, just get in bed since many guys have shown an interest in her but only her body and could care less about her as a person. Which may be another reason she loves Amata because he isn't interested in her body like that at all, unless she's teasing him, and is just a really nice guy that's always around that appreciates her for being herself.

Mix is actually very popular despite her getting far less screen time compared to Mikono and Zessica. Her romance with Andy was extremely predictable(He makes holes, she fills them) but they at least managed to get it to work despite less screen time.

I rather honestly have Amata/Mikono, which a lot of people seem to hate. :I I don't mind Amata/Zessica, it's just Kagura/Mikono that bugs me. Mostly because Mikono looks more scared to me then romantically interested, while Kagura just seems to love her because of her scent.

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by koalatea

I rather honestly have Amata/Mikono, which a lot of people seem to hate. :I I don't mind Amata/Zessica, it's just Kagura/Mikono that bugs me. Mostly because Mikono looks more scared to me then romantically interested, while Kagura just seems to love her because of her scent.

You're free to wanting that, though it's a shame if that's the case because they really aren't all that developed as a couple. Kagura is rough on the edges and the preview did show her in his arms again and not really struggling. Though I wouldn't put much faith in that since every preview thus far has just served to troll the viewers and the episode in question going a completely different direction.

You know except maybe Episode 17 which felt sorta like filler but they had to have a sorta beach episode because those are extremely popular.

[koalatea]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

You're free to wanting that, though it's a shame if that's the case because they really aren't all that developed as a couple. Kagura is rough on the edges and the preview did show her in his arms again and not really struggling. Though I wouldn't put much faith in that since every preview thus far has just served to troll the viewers and the episode in question going a completely different direction.

You know except maybe Episode 17 which felt sorta like filler but they had to have a sorta beach episode because those are extremely popular.

I think Amata/Mikono have a lot more development than Kagura/Mikono right now. Especially since Mikono realized her feelings for Amata. I hope that if Kagura/Mikono are going to be the final couple; that they at least get some more development, so I can find the pairing more likeable. ;w;

Well episode 17 served as a way to develop Mix and Andy, but yeah it was kind of a fanservice episode. xD

[mixordia]

There has never been Zessica and Amata, the real triangle was always KaguraxMikonoxAmata ... is very clear that Amata never felt anything for Zessica, only friendship.

I've always been of this opinion, and according to last episode I'm right.

My favorite couple is Kagura and Mikono, but from what I'm seeing, will give Mikono and Amata... nor why I hate him, I like Amata, even though he is the way he is...

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Not the same thing. Mikono thinks romantically about the mysterious Kagura, Zessica doesn't think of Kagura in that manner nor does she care about Kagura. She's only thinking about Kagura because if Mikono went with him than maybe Amata would be open for her. That's the difference, don't try and twist something that simple.

And no, she is lusting for Amata. She wants his attention and Kagura's attention. I explained she's leading him on because up until than she considered herself worthless. Since Amata didn't believe she was she latched on to him yet at the same time she refuses to commit or try and make things work. This makes her a horrible person, especially when Amata is extremely devoted to her while her devotion is lacking. Amata even rejected Zessica because he wanted to be loyal while Mikono hasn't even considered picking Kagura or Amata over the other, so simply loves the attention both are giving to just "her". that is until Zessica started getting Amata's attention which Mikono wasn't going to have and we all saw how they ended up for Zessica and Amata.

No, you are just repeating yourself without providing any evidence. Again you are saying that Mikono is lusting for Kagura and is unfaithfully after the attention of both Amata and Kagura, but where is your proof? You have none.

As others have mentioned, there is no proof at all that Mikono thinks of Kagura romantically, let alone lusting after him and trying to keep his romantic attention. There is proof that she fears and pities him. If fear and pity are the same thing as lust to you, well...that definitely means that Mykage/Zessica is canon, since she's scared of him. He's even come to see her without her permission - just like Kagura and Mikono! Now, see how weak that theory is? It is weaksauce, and no matter how times I repeat it and say it's true, it will stay weaksauce. But by your standard of "evidence", that Mykage/Zessica theory is every bit as robust as your "unfaithful, lusting Mikono theory". The only way to save the off-the-wall Mykage/Zessica theory would be to provide evidence, but of course, I can't do that as there isn't any. This is why you need to provide actual evidence if you want to be taken seriously.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

And I'm not interested in pulling up every Kagura and Mikono scene from the anime and there's a lot despite him not being there for most and it's just Mikono lusting after him.

Every episode Kagura has interacted with Mikono and every episode that Mikono has fawned over Kagura. Pretty much every episode Mikono has been taking center stage has been her mentioning Kagura at least once and in many cases more than once.

Interacting with someone does not equal lust and an attempt to monopolise their romantic attention, and the episodes where Mikono fawns over Kagura do not exist. Mentioning a person does not equal lusting after them, either. If it does, there are a heck of a lot more relationships going on in EVOL than anyone has been saying.

~A summary~

Me: You claim there are many scenes which prove your point. I say they don't exist. So can you tell us where they are?
You: They are in the many scenes which prove my point. But I won't say where those are.

Seriously, that is weak.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Because she is. It was cute the first few times because he's the bad boy, it lost that luster when she continued to think about him nearly every chance she could even when Amata was right there. And yes they do exist, if you paid attention to the Anime they were many of them. Especially early on and when Kagura got his hands on Mikono where she showed more concern and love for her capture than she's shown Amata in 21 Episodes.

Dude, listen to yourself. You just answered a question asking for evidence that Mikono is lusting unfaithfully after Kagura with "Because she is".

You have still not provided any evidence.

Mykage is just a manipulator and even than he isn't forcing Mikono to do anything. That makes it that much worse because at least Amata, Kagura, and Zessica were being manipulated by Mykage. Mikono? All her, every last bit and she hasn't suffered anything for all the trouble she's caused everyone.

So...Mykage is an evil, murdering manipulator, but it's okay because he intended to do it. Whereas Mikono is not an evil manipulator and hasn't murdered anyone, but you personally dislike her and want her to suffer, so she's a worse person than him and much more to blame for anything that goes wrong for the people around her.

Oookay.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Untrue, that was just a passing thought and isn't touched on all that much and eventually dropped rather quickly. While Amata was obsessing with her and when he thinks she's in trouble she's having a good time with Fudo and isn't thinking about him at all. And despite that mirror Fudo took her too that let's her see things it's horrible that she makes no comment of Zessica and doesn't even touch on Amata until Kagura is front of Amata.

It was a reasonable sized scene, in which Mikono talked to ShuShu out loud about Amata, then went on about how she hadn't wanted to get hurt and that was why she hadn't told Amata yet but that had hurt Amata and Zessica, so she had to tell him, but first she had to find Fudo and connect everyone so they could save Mix, and then she would tell him.

What you had said previously is that she didn't think of him at all, and that this is why Amata should get angry with her (which I would disagree with anyway even if she hadn't thought of him). Now you acknowledge that she did think of him but say it doesn't count.

Amata was not obsessing over Mikono in her absence. He was busy on Altair. But let's pretend he was obsessing over her - there is no reason why Mikono should be obsessing just because he was. Obsession is a character flaw at times when people have to get things done.

If Mikono hadn't seriously been trying to find Fudo but had just been gazing wistfully up at the sky thinking "oh how I love Amata-kun" and occasionally walking into lampposts, in my opinion that would be pathetic, but apparently that was what she was supposed to do.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Anger isn't rational and his anger would be justified because he has every reason to be angry. It's a build up of 21 episodes of Mikono leading him on, all the BS he has had to endure because of her, and now Zessica paying because he's a blind dog to Mikono even though she's done nothing to deserve his devotion considering her unfaithfulness.

Her unfaithfulness which you have provided no evidence for.

Look, you have no evidence. Pretty much all you are saying here boils down to "I hate Mikono, and if I were Amata I would hate Mikono too". But you are not Amata.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Yet the stronger Mikono gets the less she thinks of Amata and that's a weak excuse since she has shown that an ability for combat. Her telling him that she wants to tell him something after saying "No, I don't want you to come with me" than saying "No, you gotta wait if you wanna hear what I got to say" was horrible, just horrible if they wanted her to be likeable, Who does that? A Tease that's who. She knows things are getting rough yet she just had to say something like that which has clearly effected Amata's mental state and made it easier to manipulate him.

Mikono has no combat ability. All she is able to do is connect and strengthen the bonds between others.

I think it would have been better for Mikono to tell Amata she loves him then (assuming that is what she had to say), but I initially assumed that she did not have the courage to say it at that point in time, but was going to make sure she did when she got back. Setting herself a goal, as it were. But by now I think that was wrong. I think some of the other arguments made for why she didn't say it are more persuasive and make more sense, considering what she said in the scene on the boat about how she needed to find Fudo/connect the others/save Mix first. She is putting that task first before she can feel free to tell Amata. What she's not doing in that scene is teasing. She admitted to Amata that she was scared, and set a time when she would feel able to tell him how she feels.

There is something you seem to be missing consistently, which is that the characters have personal responsibility. They have agency. Mikono is not the only person who has agency in this series: Amata, Zessica, and the others have agency too. If they are not insane or brainwashed, they are responsible for their own actions. This is one reason why your blaming Mikono for everything just doesn't make sense, because the others have brains and choices of their own.

It is really clear that you have no evidence for the things you are claiming to be fact about Mikono (that she is lusting, unfaithful, etc). It's really clear that
it's all just because you hate Mikono and are demonising her for things she has never done and is not responsible for. It's a pretty dramatic case of rationalisation (...especially given, IMO, that Mikono is a flawed character and proportional, sensible reasons really do exist for disliking her). I don't know for sure why you're doing it, but I guess it's something to do with Zessica's unrequited love for Amata, since everything you've been saying focuses on Amata and Mikono's relationship. Ship wars: not the greatest bastion of logic even at the best of times.

So I asked you for evidence even though I knew you would be unable to provide it. That's mostly because you were so firm in your insistence that you had loads of proof, despite that nobody else here has any recollection of the constant lusting unfaithfulness and so forth, and were so firm in your insistence that that proof is the reason why Mikono is an evil lusting two timer witch to blame for everything going wrong around her. It's hard not to call the bluff of someone who is baseless character bashing that hard while insisting they have proof and hard reasons that should be able to convince anyone. (At least for me! Other people have been more saintly. Sorry, guys.)

And yeah, as expected you haven't given any evidence. And continuing to ask you for something you can't provide is getting too mean, so I'll stop asking. But in closing I think you should ask yourself why it is that you have been unable to provide evidence. If you really believe that all those scenes exist as you say, why have you not been able to point to them, and why has nobody else but you seen them? Have some self-awareness.