[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

The reality-alternative possibility might also be true but wasn't it said that Hachijo refused to meet her? Unless Tohya refused to do so and Ikuko instead met her and handed her all that? Or we were lied about Tohya refusing to meet her?

Well, at least in EP6 (and in a way in 8) Ikuko DID meet with her under the guise of being Tohya. In that way we were not lied to but told only part of the truth. Tohya did refuse to meet with her, but she still met a Hachijo.

Hum... as Hideyoshi isn't shown holding a gun I feel tempted to ask if the Japanese sentence is really that binding or it can be translated in another way that leaves the doubt on who killed Rudolf and Kyrie.

Well, the panel is too narrow to see whether he is holding anything, but no, the sentence leaves no doubt. Literally translated it is: "The doubted Hideyoshi, at the mansion, killed Rudolph and Kyrie."

Interesting enough it doesn't seem like Rudolf is holding a gun but he might have dropped it when he was shoot but what's even more interesting is that Hideyoshi definitely doesn't look like holding one when he faces Kyrie who's on her knees.

I took a look at the manga again and there are some interesting things that the story is telling us.
First of all, there are only two guns, Hideyoshi's and Rudolph's. Hideyoshi hands his gone over to Kyrie because he is going to push the food cart. So they were trying to get food, but we know that it never was about getting food, so that should be a lie. Also, after the Chiesters attack Rudolph and Kyrie and Beatrice reprimands Eva-Beato, Hideyoshi is suddenly holding a gun again, standing amongst the carnage.
It probably really was very confusing and fast, with Hideyoshi acting on impulse more than cold-blooded thoughts...yet, we have to consider these are stories, so more on that now:

For me if Eva was bribed, Sayo is more like trying to go on with her epitaph than anything else so she keeps on killing regardless of Eva's murders... or considers Eva's murders as part of the ritual same way as she does with Genji's murders in other episodes.

This raises an interesting question that was so far only prominently raised in regards to EP5 within the narrative: The question of author and intent.
So, we know that EP3 is not actually written by Sayo but modelled after her tales. This made me think again, with current knowledge, and especially the moment right before the game is suspended struck me as odd or maybe meaningful.

So, on a meta-level BATTLER is disgusted by the deeds of BEATRICE that are carried out by Eva-Beato from the 2nd twilight onwards. So as a way to mend their relationship, BEATRICE attempts to intervene by acting as Beatrice on the gameboard and either mending the horrors committed by Eva-Beato or at least giving them a sweeter taste. She is especially shown trying to give George and Jessica a happy end with Shannon and Kanon respectively, with Eva-Beato intruding on these. She does that, claiming that she is the New Beatrice and insults her "sendaisama", literally, "The Last Generation" as an old hag that has nothing to say anymore since Eva-Beato is now in possession of all the magic.

Now that reminded me of something that Eva-Beato said in EP8 (don't know if only manga or also VN), which is that she is the Beatrice of 1986 to 1998 and that all of the island belongs to her, also that she wants to spin countless Eva-culprit theories that are more horrible than any other.
That made me think further.

Back to EP3, this is when Eva-Beato tries to kill Beato but, while able to destroy her body, is unable to defeat her golden heart. By now we know that the heart of Beatrice's stories is a central symbol of Sayo's message, her attempts and her pleads towards the outside world, so what does that scene tell us. Ronove says that in the moment Beatrice's Golden Heart shone, she became the true Endless Witch Beatrice and that Eva-Beato lost all her powers. Then, when Eva-Beato tries to stomp on Beato's now powerless and battered heart to destroy it completely, Battler intervenes and says that her battle is with him and that she is the true villain of this piece.

This made me think that EP3 and Eva-Beato is less about the story of Eva becoming a culprit, but of how the Eva-culprit theory started post-1986 and what that means for the narrative of Sayo's tales.

Why does Young-Eva become Eva-Beato in that strange ceremony in the gold room? Let's look at this story not as an actual event, but a theory from the perspective of post-1986 and the perspectives of Tohya and Ange:
In post-1986 Eva did survive and she carried both the ring and succeeded the family, so she was assumed the culprit. At the same time, a being called Beatrice is claimed to be the culprit. So Eva-Beato is the Beatrice of these ideas, not Sayo's Beatrice, that was driven by emotion and a desire to be accepted and found, but the future world's Eva-Beatrice, that was driven by a lust for vengence, blood and carnage.
Eva-Beato in that sense is not Eva, she is the Beatrice of a world in which Eva is the culprit, a world that especially Ange wants to see. And that is exactly what drives BATTLER and by connection Tohya into this corner.

[GreyZone]

@jjblue1:

I'd say, even in the illusion of the witch, Hideyoshi was killed by Kyrie, so that should be added into the magic culprit paragraph as well.

[Uberzaki]

As a person who does not like admitting that they are wrong X( It bothers me that Eva killed Kratushi. If you apply the wolf and sheep puzzle, it would require two other accomplices to do it. She also could have just used a shotgun to kill them both (hypothetically, she would have to in order to apply a stake anyway). Well, the same (shotgun and wolf and sheep) could be said for Maria and Rosa's murders. Will mentions "The obvious culprit wields a mutable blade" in EP7, and I guess that Eva counts as the 'obvious culprit'.

The whole wolf and sheep rule is not one that necessarily applies (which it supposedly does with Battler's death), you have think from both sides of the equation (e.g. One sheep was actually a wolf in sheep's clothing).

As for Haguruma's mentioning of Eva Beatrice culprit theory catching on: I kind of agree. AuraTwilight mentions that Beatrice would be taking the fall for someone else and I went on to believe that as symbolism of Beatrice as a 'rule' that Eva-Beatrice would subsequently follow.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

@jjblue1:

I'd say, even in the illusion of the witch, Hideyoshi was killed by Kyrie, so that should be added into the magic culprit paragraph as well.

Nope, Eva-Beatrice declared she moved Kyrie's gun with magic to kill Hideyoshi. So officially, for the magic version the culprit is still Eva. Of course, even without the manga confirming it, we could guess that in truth it was Kyrie who shot him.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Well, at least in EP6 (and in a way in 8) Ikuko DID meet with her under the guise of being Tohya. In that way we were not lied to but told only part of the truth. Tohya did refuse to meet with her, but she still met a Hachijo.

Might be but in Ep 8 it's said Ange just contacted the publishing company but they never let her meet him. She doesn't look like she knows Ikuko and the Hachijo tells they were told it was Ange but that Tohya refused to meet her.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Well, the panel is too narrow to see whether he is holding anything, but no, the sentence leaves no doubt. Literally translated it is: "The doubted Hideyoshi, at the mansion, killed Rudolph and Kyrie."

Well, when Kyrie is on the ground we get a close up of Hideyoshi's right hand and he's holding no gun... which looks rather odd to me but maybe it'll be fixed in the volumes?
Oh, okay. I've asked because I saw someone translating it as: "Hideyoshi is suspected. At the mansion, Rudolf and Kyrie are killed."

Originally Posted by haguruma

I took a look at the manga again and there are some interesting things that the story is telling us.
First of all, there are only two guns, Hideyoshi's and Rudolph's. Hideyoshi hands his gone over to Kyrie because he is going to push the food cart. So they were trying to get food, but we know that it never was about getting food, so that should be a lie. Also, after the Chiesters attack Rudolph and Kyrie and Beatrice reprimands Eva-Beato, Hideyoshi is suddenly holding a gun again, standing amongst the carnage.
It probably really was very confusing and fast, with Hideyoshi acting on impulse more than cold-blooded thoughts...yet, we have to consider these are stories, so more on that now:

Yes, but it makes sense that Kyrie would try to get possession of Hideyoshi's gun by suggesting him to push the serving cart before questioning him.
I mean... she looks wise enough to know if they own a gun each things can get ugly for her and Rudolf too.
Also the manga makes clear Kyrie had a gun and Rudolf is lying too far from Kyrie for her to take it from him.

Originally Posted by haguruma

This raises an interesting question that was so far only prominently raised in regards to EP5 within the narrative: The question of author and intent.
So, we know that EP3 is not actually written by Sayo but modelled after her tales. This made me think again, with current knowledge, and especially the moment right before the game is suspended struck me as odd or maybe meaningful.

I'm not sure how to interpret Ep 3, honestly.
It should have love as Meta speaking it was written by Beato therefore the rule epitaph solved=murders stop should hold true.

I'm not sure Eva-Beatrice counts as a Meta character or she's just, like Erika, a piece dragged in the meta room, and even if Battler challenged her, she's just subjected to her master in truth, regardless of her liking it or not and could kill Beatrice on the board merely because that was the plot Beatrice devised so as to trick Battler who can't really differenziate between piece Beatrice and Meta Beatrice (we can clearly see in Ep 5 they're different).

Undoubtely part of the author's intent here is to depict that something went wrong with the plan. Regardless of the fact that the epitaph was solved or Eva was bribed with the promise of being handed the solution Rosa's murder seems more incidental than planned (pushing her against the fence doesn't really look like the best, safest, murdering strategy) and apparently Hideyoshi ended up alone with Rudolf and Kyrie on Kyrie's prompting and not due to his own planning. Kyrie also ended up suspecting of him for a mistake he made.

Considering the author is Tohya he might be trying to deliver a message about Prime, about how things went wrong but actually didn't follow a plan.

But in all this speculation we still have piece Shannon/Kanon deciding to insist this is the work of a witch and killing 2 people (George and Nanjo) and we aren't sure if Jessica was just hidden or was also killed.

As she kills, and she clearly does so on purpose (shooting George and Nanjo doesn't really look like an accident) she hadn't stopped killing therefore the epitaph shouldn't be solved.

Of course magically speaking we can say it's not Beatrice who's doing the killing but Eva-Beatrice but... does this work to excuse piece Sayo from actually killing for her own agenda whatever that can be?

I'm not sure, it could, it could not.

It can entirely be that the whole story is about how the Eva-culprit theory started post-1986 but the problem is that PieceYasu's actions remain unconnected.

I could accept it as her becoming Eva's servant of some sort as she said she would serve whoever solved the epitaph but I doubt Eva wanted George dead and Sayo really seems to act not in accord with Eva.

So... I'll admit I'm confuse. I can accept the murders being played out as presented by the manga but I can't see the logic behind Sayo's action.

I hope future bits will clear up this further.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

I'm not sure how to interpret Ep 3, honestly.
It should have love as Meta speaking it was written by Beato therefore the rule epitaph solved=murders stop should hold true.

But exactly that is the part that is important. From a meta-perspective, Beato abandons her rights as the Beatrice of this gameboard mid-game and hands it over to the new Beatrice.
From a narrative standpoint of the meta-plane gameboards aren't written, they are laid out by the GM and then unfold according to how the players progress. In that sense, Eva-Beato in EP3 is very similar to Will in EP7. She is given a certain amount of creative freedom by the GM Beato (as did Bern with Will in 7) but the GM can still call the shots, as Beato did in the very end when she destroyed Eva-Beato.

I'm not sure Eva-Beatrice counts as a Meta character or she's just, like Erika, a piece dragged in the meta room, and even if Battler challenged her, she's just subjected to her master in truth, regardless of her liking it or not and could kill Beatrice on the board merely because that was the plot Beatrice devised so as to trick Battler who can't really differenziate between piece Beatrice and Meta Beatrice (we can clearly see in Ep 5 they're different).

The question here is, was that really Beato's design? Even the plot of EP3 called that into question fairly obviously, since she had no actual power to convinve Eva-Beato to stop her cruelties. She was able to deny her existence as "the true culprit" in the end, like they were able to trap Erika in the end of EP6, but she still had power.
Regarding that Eva-Beato said something very important when Beato reminded her that her acting careless will scare off Battler's will to engage in the game:
"Then that has to do with a world that is no concern of mine! [...] My Predecessor? I am already a witch! Different from you, who can't be a witch without being accepted by some game oponent from another world, I am a witch with magical powers without ever being accepted!"
EP3 does not unfold with the purpose of proving that someone is a witch, but showing how a presupposed witch acts. Remember what Eva was called in the tabloids? "The witch of Rokkenjima"!

Considering the author is Tohya he might be trying to deliver a message about Prime, about how things went wrong but actually didn't follow a plan.

Here is I think one of the key problems where we have different ideas about the authorship. It is always mentioned that the Hachijo's write as a duo. Ikuko is the writer and Tohya gives ideas, proofreads and edits her works. In my understanding, this story was equally thrust unto Tohya as was the message bottles, but in the form of Ikuko's forgery.
We know from CotGW that Sayo's favourite locked room was the one that featured in EP3, which was supposed to be Land of the Golden Witch. So on a meta-meta-level we could even say that Ikuko took this idea and formed a new story out of it, so her Eva-culprit-theory became the intruder Eva-Beato on an already existing gameboard.

As she kills, and she clearly does so on purpose (shooting George and Nanjo doesn't really look like an accident) she hadn't stopped killing therefore the epitaph shouldn't be solved.

It can entirely be that the whole story is about how the Eva-culprit theory started post-1986 but the problem is that PieceYasu's actions remain unconnected.

And that is exactly the point: Similarly to EP5, the culprit looses a layer of motives and becomes a mere villain by this. Shannon's crimes loose meaning because the narrative looses focus. That is actually also the case to a minor degree in EP4, where the narrative acts in order to confuse Battler and the reader by countering the idea that Kinzo is dead, only to reaffirm it at the end. The only point in which EP4 properly hints towards the true nature of the game is in form of the fantasy narrative, while it completely starts to seperate from the mystery narrative.

I hope future bits will clear up this further.

I would like to learn more about the timeframe in which creation of the forgeries, Tohya's involvement, Confession being found, and his memory returning seem to fit...

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by haguruma

But exactly that is the part that is important. From a meta-perspective, Beato abandons her rights as the Beatrice of this gameboard mid-game and hands it over to the new Beatrice.
From a narrative standpoint of the meta-plane gameboards aren't written, they are laid out by the GM and then unfold according to how the players progress. In that sense, Eva-Beato in EP3 is very similar to Will in EP7. She is given a certain amount of creative freedom by the GM Beato (as did Bern with Will in 7) but the GM can still call the shots, as Beato did in the very end when she destroyed Eva-Beato.

She abandones them as culprit but not as GM. We've an interesting talk between Beatrice and Eva-Beatrice in which Beatrice complains Eva isn't acting as planned... which might be a hint to how PieceEva in the gameboard took matters in her own hands and against PieceSayo's plans... but that also confirm that's still Beatrice who's fighting Battler and that Battler is in a different world from Eva-Beatrice (he's in the meta, she's on the gameboard) and that the two can't interact.
Also, Beatrice fully acnowledge game 3 as her own and asks Will to solve it while she won't care about having the solution of Ep 5 which was created by Lambda.
All this seems to point out she was in charge of Ep 3, even if Eva-Beatrice might have been a piece that ended up moving in a way that was different from how she planned it.

We also saw that for the trial in Ep 5 PieceBeato could 'join the meta' even though she didn't become MetaBeato so I guess the same might have happened to Eva-Beatrice when MetaBattler challenged her.

Originally Posted by haguruma

The question here is, was that really Beato's design? Even the plot of EP3 called that into question fairly obviously, since she had no actual power to convinve Eva-Beato to stop her cruelties. She was able to deny her existence as "the true culprit" in the end, like they were able to trap Erika in the end of EP6, but she still had power.
Regarding that Eva-Beato said something very important when Beato reminded her that her acting careless will scare off Battler's will to engage in the game:
"Then that has to do with a world that is no concern of mine! [...] My Predecessor? I am already a witch! Different from you, who can't be a witch without being accepted by some game oponent from another world, I am a witch with magical powers without ever being accepted!"
EP3 does not unfold with the purpose of proving that someone is a witch, but showing how a presupposed witch acts. Remember what Eva was called in the tabloids? "The witch of Rokkenjima"!

Well, it's implied it's MetaBeato's design. She wanted to help Battler solve everything so she created a setting in which she could give him someone who'll help him (Virgilia) and then tried to help him personally.
I'll say the one who has not the power to stop her is PieceBeatrice not MetaBeatrice.
Tohya might have modelled Eva on the Eva he knew from tabloids but that's a matter regarding Prime.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Here is I think one of the key problems where we have different ideas about the authorship. It is always mentioned that the Hachijo's write as a duo. Ikuko is the writer and Tohya gives ideas, proofreads and edits her works. In my understanding, this story was equally thrust unto Tohya as was the message bottles, but in the form of Ikuko's forgery.
We know from CotGW that Sayo's favourite locked room was the one that featured in EP3, which was supposed to be Land of the Golden Witch. So on a meta-meta-level we could even say that Ikuko took this idea and formed a new story out of it, so her Eva-culprit-theory became the intruder Eva-Beato on an already existing gameboard.

I might have expressed myself poorly as I've mentioned only Tohya but I didn't forget Ikuko was likely also a writer of the forgery.
It's possible Ikuko found Land and plagiarized it (after all she had found confession and we were never told about its existence while at least Land gets mentioned so it makes sense Ikuko and Tohya knows about it existing) but I'll say Tohya still have a hand in it. Ikuko didn't seem confident to share her works with others before he came into play... though yes, it can also be Banquet is actually the tale she handed to Battler/Tohya when he was in the hospital and he didn't manage to connect things but later fixed it and they released it?
I guess we need more info?

Originally Posted by haguruma

And that is exactly the point: Similarly to EP5, the culprit looses a layer of motives and becomes a mere villain by this. Shannon's crimes loose meaning because the narrative looses focus. That is actually also the case to a minor degree in EP4, where the narrative acts in order to confuse Battler and the reader by countering the idea that Kinzo is dead, only to reaffirm it at the end. The only point in which EP4 properly hints towards the true nature of the game is in form of the fantasy narrative, while it completely starts to seperate from the mystery narrative.

Yes, but Ep 4 remains clearly a game with love and the only huge problem we've with it it's that fantasy is so much all over the places we've hard time figuring out when things took place. Although helped by Genji (which as I previously stated I found useless as she could have carried out all that on her own) Sayo remains the main culprit, the epitaph isn't solved and so she carries out her ritual and the only big difference from game 1 & 2 is that she kills everyone minus Battler and don't just content herself with the number of people the epitaph required.

[haguruma]

In some regards we seem to have a completely different reading of several elements within Umineko...though I admit it's kinda fun that even years later we can still have discussions like this.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

which might be a hint to how PieceEva in the gameboard took matters in her own hands and against PieceSayo's plans... but that also confirm that's still Beatrice who's fighting Battler and that Battler is in a different world from Eva-Beatrice (he's in the meta, she's on the gameboard) and that the two can't interact.

I think that the conflict between Shannon's (Sayo technically doesn't exist as a piece) and Eva's interests is a part of that discussion, but I don't think it is all, because Eva-Beato is clearly not just Eva. We have Eva-Beatrice filling in for four things actually:

1. Eva herself directly killing,
2. The effect Eva's obvious ambition has on other people (Kyrie planning to seperate Eva's branch),
3. The killings that happen due to Eva's indirect actions (Kyrie, Rudolph, Hideyoshi),
4. The killings that happen outside of Eva's influence but under the impression it might have been her (George, Nanjo).

More than proving that it is Beato who is still leading the game, she entered a pact with somebody who was a clear threat to her ambition but of course for the reason of making Battler want to trust her over a worse option. And here I think it is where we have to seperate meta-story from meta-meaning.
There is no Beato who tries a strategy on Battler in order to lure him into accepting her, that is the meta-plot that moves parallel to the 1986 and the 1998 plot. It's basically the 1986-reading of the events proposed by Sayo, winning out because both the horribleness and the impossibility of the 1986-1998-reading proposed by society.

Also, Beatrice fully acnowledge game 3 as her own and asks Will to solve it while she won't care about having the solution of Ep 5 which was created by Lambda.

No, Clair vaux Bernadus, the vessel of the true culprit acknowledges and proposes EP3 as a plan of crime of her design. She is not Beatrice, since she only exists on a gameboard where Beatrice does not. Yes, she takes the same shape as Sayo's second Beatrice, but that would still differentiate her from culprit-Beatrice, who has the shape of Kinzo's/Battler's Beatrice.

All this seems to point out she was in charge of Ep 3, even if Eva-Beatrice might have been a piece that ended up moving in a way that was different from how she planned it.

We also saw that for the trial in Ep 5 PieceBeato could 'join the meta' even though she didn't become MetaBeato so I guess the same might have happened to Eva-Beatrice when MetaBattler challenged her.

I wouldn't fully claim these Beato's to be pieces, since we do not know by whose design they are moved. If any it would be Lambda, since Beato is clearly working against Bern, but that would enter the question why Lambda would propose a heartless game in which a Beato with a heart exists and struggles to prove it. The Beato that joins the court is apparently somewhere inbetween, since she has Sayo's relationship with Battler but apparently not the full kndowledge of the boards to be able to protect Natsuhi...she is more a part of Sayo's rules crystalized in the form of Beato in a game where she actually has no reason to exist.

Yes, but Ep 4 remains clearly a game with love and the only huge problem we've with it it's that fantasy is so much all over the places we've hard time figuring out when things took place.

I think EP4 is much more than just that. One thing that springs to my mind is the fact of actually two Beatrice's existing here already, who are clearly in direct contact with each other but share different goals.
One of the big things I am proposing is, and I don't know if that got across, is that MetaBeato is not Sayo and is basically not even Sayo's Beatrice, she is the Hachijo's (mainly Tohya's) Beatrice. There is a very central scene in EP4 where PieceBeato enters back from the balcony after Battler showed incapable of solving her riddle, then the two Beatrice's (meta and fiction) face each other and MetaBeatrice tells her that she can rest now and she will take over from here.
Yes, on the one hand this shows that this is the point where Shannon decided to let it all go and let everybody die, on the other hand the event goes on to MetaBeato wanting to discard the game altogether. Why would this have any relevance if this was merely Sayo's intent, since Battler/Tohya cannot be further influenced by an action that Sayo (who is likely dead) would take.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by haguruma

In some regards we seem to have a completely different reading of several elements within Umineko...though I admit it's kinda fun that even years later we can still have discussions like this.

LOL, I agree. With Umineko one never ends to discuss about it.

Originally Posted by haguruma

I think that the conflict between Shannon's (Sayo technically doesn't exist as a piece) and Eva's interests is a part of that discussion, but I don't think it is all, because Eva-Beato is clearly not just Eva. We have Eva-Beatrice filling in for four things actually:

1. Eva herself directly killing,
2. The effect Eva's obvious ambition has on other people (Kyrie planning to seperate Eva's branch),
3. The killings that happen due to Eva's indirect actions (Kyrie, Rudolph, Hideyoshi),
4. The killings that happen outside of Eva's influence but under the impression it might have been her (George, Nanjo).

Well, to me Eva-Beatrice is a fantasy explanation similar to the Beatrice of Ep 5.
Beatrice of Ep 5 seems a single character but part of her she stands in for Natsuhi's fantasies, part of her works to offer a cover up for the man of 19 years ago's plan (the letter, the corpses disapeparing) and a part might work to support the fantasy-meta theme (Beatrice interacting with Battler, jumping in his arms, remembering the past games or despairing over how he doesn't remember his promise surely doesn't fit Natsuhi's Beatrice but likely not even the man of 19 years ago's Beatrice as he can't have awareness of the previous boards and apparently is more focused in revenge than in Battler).

Ultimately though, although Beatrice has apparently some freedom of action (it's Beatrice's party who handed Battler the ring and supposedly caused the corpses to disappear according to the magic narrative... and Beatrice will go so far as to claim she even killed the servant and caused the baby's fall) and even speaks up at the trial, she's just... a magic explanation, a fantasy character that doesn't reperesent a single person but various stuffs.

For me Eva-Beatrice's situation is similar. She stands in as a magic explanation for various stuffs, implying Eva's involvement in some of them in a rather obvious way but, at the same time, not necessarily being Eva or even someone in control. She's just 'the culprit' in some facts, same as Beatrice claimed to be in Ep 5.

If however we wonder on a Prime angle on why Eva-Beatrice exists, likely it is because in Tohya's world the culprit isn't Sayo with her Beatrice but Eva. If they think that there's someone behind those mysterious happenings they think it was Eva pretending to be Beatrice, not someone else.

Ep 3 was probably structured to create a let's call it 'Sayo's game board' that however would work with the truths and beliefs of Prime.

If we look at Ep 3 carefully in a way it resembles Ep 7 Teaparty.
In Ep 7 Teaparty Eva kills a person by mistake (Natsuhi) and in Ep 3 Rosa's murder was likely not planned. Then there's another murder due to the reaction of this person at the first murder (Krauss attacked Eva who killed Natsuhi, Maria made too much noise when her mother was killed by Eva). The following murder takes place after a debate over Eva (and Hideyoshi) killing on purpose or by mistake Natsuhi and Krauss in the Teaparty and over Kyrie suspecting Eva and Hideyoshi to be the one who murdered Rosa. We've a person shoot that she didn't die and therefore got her chance to shoot as well (Kyrie, although she'll die later on in Ep 3 and Eva in the Teaparty). We've 2 murders done likely out of the suspicions the others were responsible of murdering someone else (likely Eva though Natsuhi and Krauss were responsible for Hideyoshi's death and in the Teaparty she was sure Kyrie and Rudolf were the culprits).
Then we've the murders of the servants and of George and Jessica of whom Eva knows nothing about and can only speculate on who killed them.

In short in a way both settings have similar elements even if the background is pretty different.

Originally Posted by haguruma

No, Clair vaux Bernadus, the vessel of the true culprit acknowledges and proposes EP3 as a plan of crime of her design. She is not Beatrice, since she only exists on a gameboard where Beatrice does not. Yes, she takes the same shape as Sayo's second Beatrice, but that would still differentiate her from culprit-Beatrice, who has the shape of Kinzo's/Battler's Beatrice.

Beatrice acknowledged that gameboard in Ep 4 as well. Battler has to solve it in order to win. And I'm not sure we can say that Clair exists in a gameboard in which Beato doesn't exist. That gameboard is a patchwork of a gameboard in which Beato didn't exist and one in which she did. The true culprit shouldn't exist as a separate existence in Lion's world (Lion and the true culprit are... let's call it the same person in 2 different fragments) so it must also come from the world in which it didn't exist.

(On a sidenote I can't say I exactly loved the idea to introduce Clair as another identity for Sayo but I'm toying with the idea that Clair isn't exacly Sayo but more the personification of 'Confession of the Golden Witch' so she works as Narrator. The petals scattering when Will hit her might be a poetic way to name the piece of papers on which the confession was written... not that I expect the manga to confirm this)

Originally Posted by haguruma

I wouldn't fully claim these Beato's to be pieces, since we do not know by whose design they are moved. If any it would be Lambda, since Beato is clearly working against Bern, but that would enter the question why Lambda would propose a heartless game in which a Beato with a heart exists and struggles to prove it. The Beato that joins the court is apparently somewhere inbetween, since she has Sayo's relationship with Battler but apparently not the full kndowledge of the boards to be able to protect Natsuhi...she is more a part of Sayo's rules crystalized in the form of Beato in a game where she actually has no reason to exist.

Well, for me the piece called Beatrice is always not a real person but the personification of the 'rule' that for every mysterious happening Beatrice is the one that gets blamed. In short on the gameboard she's not more alive than the Chiesters (which are just guns) or the sever sisters (paper weights) but that in the magic setting have a character, a heart, meta knowledge and so on. She can however look like she has a vessel because often it's Sayo who causes the mysterious happenings for which Beatrice gets blamed... but actually in Ep 3 we see that it's Beatrice that in the end kills Rosa and Maria when instead we've just seen confirmation that it was Eva (the scene is interesting because Beatrice becomes the culprit when Battler rejects the things Eva was doing... which might also be Battler rejecting Eva might be the culprit).

Originally Posted by haguruma

I think EP4 is much more than just that. One thing that springs to my mind is the fact of actually two Beatrice's existing here already, who are clearly in direct contact with each other but share different goals.
One of the big things I am proposing is, and I don't know if that got across, is that MetaBeato is not Sayo and is basically not even Sayo's Beatrice, she is the Hachijo's (mainly Tohya's) Beatrice. There is a very central scene in EP4 where PieceBeato enters back from the balcony after Battler showed incapable of solving her riddle, then the two Beatrice's (meta and fiction) face each other and MetaBeatrice tells her that she can rest now and she will take over from here.
Yes, on the one hand this shows that this is the point where Shannon decided to let it all go and let everybody die, on the other hand the event goes on to MetaBeato wanting to discard the game altogether. Why would this have any relevance if this was merely Sayo's intent, since Battler/Tohya cannot be further influenced by an action that Sayo (who is likely dead) would take.

While I'm a supporter of the idea MetaBeato exists only in Tohya's mind for me the dialogue between the two Beato is nothing else but a monologue in Sayo's head. We saw the manga reinforcing the idea of Sayo representing the conflicts in her mind with herself, Kanon and Beatrice. Sayo right then was just dressed as Beatrice, which is why we see it as a dialogue between Beatrice and Beatrice and not between Beatrice and Sayo (or Shannon if you prefer).

The whole 'I'll clean up for you' might merely be a reference to how everything will be covered up by 'Beatrice's magic' so that Beatrice will look like the culprit and not Sayo. 'Beatrice's magic' will also be what will 'magically' kill Battler (the bomb).

On a sidenote I really enjoy discussing Umineko with you so thank you for giving me the possibility to theorize more!

[haguruma]

I really enjoy the discussion too. It gives me a little bit time to relax and let of steam, since none of my Japanese friends has actually caught up to EP8 in the manga so far...since it was me who actually got them to read it in the first place

Originally Posted by jjblue1

despairing over how he doesn't remember his promise surely doesn't fit Natsuhi's Beatrice but likely not even the man of 19 years ago's Beatrice as he can't have awareness of the previous boards and apparently is more focused in revenge than in Battler).

Actually this point kind of points into the direction I am going: Similar to EP3, the true culprit in EP5 and Beato are separated into having dissimilar goals. EP1 and 2 clearly exist in the framework that Sayo put up for her stories, she murders people, with the help of a co-culprit, under the the guise of the witch Beatrice, handing out numerous hints in order to guide people towards understanding her. EP3 is working from a deductive standpoint that succeded the reality of 1986-Rokkenjima: "Murder is said to have happened, only living people can murder, Ushiromiya Eva is alive, therefore Ushiromiya Eva is the murderer!" And yet it also introduces doubt about Eva's culpability, absolving her of at least half of the murders happened. Basically you could also say that she acts in a manner similar to Erika in EP5 and 6, ending up in a logic error.

Having reread it today, I would say that EP4 is inherently different from EP1 and 2 as well though, since it basically centralizes the plot of the family head Ushiromiya "Goldsmith" Lion and not that of Sayo/Beatrice. On the island plot we are introduced this time to an acting "Kinzo" who decides to sacrifice his whole family in order to "give back all that he owns in return for Beatrice". The idea of "being stopped" is only introduced at the very end when a human Beatrice (not necessarily the witch) and Battler encounter and she demands him remembering his promise and atoning for his sin. This is basically the story of the side of Sayo that has already given up hope for survival and only wants a last bit of gratification before her great family suicide.

If however we wonder on a Prime angle on why Eva-Beatrice exists, likely it is because in Tohya's world the culprit isn't Sayo with her Beatrice but Eva. If they think that there's someone behind those mysterious happenings they think it was Eva pretending to be Beatrice, not someone else.

But Eva is not the culprit in Prime, Kyrie and Rudolph are the central killers in prime (I will for semantic reasons refrain from using the word murderer, since their action lacks a lot of the planning that goes with Sayo's idea of murder), yet the narrative of Banquet of the Golden Witch exists as a forgery in Prime.
Remember what Black-Battler said in Forgery No.xxx, he exists because of the many people who long for an explanation in which Ushiromiya Battler is the murderer. Eva-Beato to me is similar, she is an amalgamation of Eva-culprit-theories given shape.

Ep 3 was probably structured to create a let's call it 'Sayo's game board' that however would work with the truths and beliefs of Prime.

And yet it didn't work. Which is why I still believe that, if it was created by Ikuko, it was created before the Hachijo's knew the whole scope of the truth.

On a sidenote I can't say I exactly loved the idea to introduce Clair as another identity for Sayo but I'm toying with the idea that Clair isn't exacly Sayo but more the personification of 'Confession of the Golden Witch' so she works as Narrator.

That's exactly as I see it and that is why Lion's world can only exist in the confines of the unopened catbox. Lion's world is a world that can connect to the events post 1986 but it is ruled out by the existence of Confession of the Golden Witch, in the form of Clair.

Well, for me the piece called Beatrice is always not a real person but the personification of the 'rule' that for every mysterious happening Beatrice is the one that gets blamed.

Yet in EP1 and 2 you can basically equate this: Beatrice killing people=Sayo killing people.

While I'm a supporter of the idea MetaBeato exists only in Tohya's mind for me the dialogue between the two Beato is nothing else but a monologue in Sayo's head.

I would agree that it is partly that, but it is also important that this scene extends into the Meta-Parlour. It is MetaBeato who then poses the questions about Battler's identity and this is where the individual planes really start mixing and it becomes a question of who is who, since this MetaBeato is also the one who recedes to the Golden Land in order to be with Maria and cries over her lost chances. So I wouldn't say she exists only in Tohya's mind in the sense that she is only made of Tohya, but also of what Sayo wished for, which becomes very apparent in the EP4 manga:
Sadly these two pages (1 and 2) had a horrible translation done to them...
It should actually be: "Try and stop me (Beatrice's form of me, warawa)! - If you just hadn't returned! - I never wanted to be born! - Can't I love anybody? - Please, whatever the outcome may be, at least in my stories... - ...kill me (Simple form of me also used by Shannon, watashi) - and if not that - you should die!"
What MetaBeato from EP1-5 likely is, is the lingering regret and the sadness of Sayo, kept alive by Tohya's feelings of guilt and him having been unable to do anything. This is for me also why MetaBattler (after he understands) becomes first so intent on giving Beato the happy ending she deserved (by trying to revive her and marry her in EP6) and also gave her eternal rest in EP7.

Oh and concerning a former question that was raised by you I think, I had another look at the EP7 manga and it appears like the order of murders in EP4 is actually supposed to be: Kyrie, Krauss, Nanjo, the 5 adults in the dining hall, George, Gohda and Kumasawa, Jessica, Maria, and finally Genji.

[fuff]

just a quick question according to the the wikia page the witches and furniture where made up character/imaginary friend created by maria and sayo...does that mean none of the witches and furniture exist at all?? but then the whole ange/bern thing doesnt make sense....or is that part of the story battler created about witches existing? i dunno im kinda confused on the whole meta world and the existance of the witches/states of purgatory

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by fuff

just a quick question according to the the wikia page the witches and furniture where made up character/imaginary friend created by maria and sayo...does that mean none of the witches and furniture exist at all?? but then the whole ange/bern thing doesnt make sense....or is that part of the story battler created about witches existing? i dunno im kinda confused on the whole meta world and the existance of the witches/states of purgatory

This is not an easy question to answer since it is one of the main points of Umineko as a whole to draw the line between truth and fiction into question. There is also no absolute consensus among the fans regarding that topic either, so I can only give you an outline of my ideas (also not wanting to spoil you too much, since you apparently haven't finished EP8 as the VN yet).

As I said, this is according to my personal understanding:
To understand the nature of the witches and demons sorrounding Rokkenjima, we have to question where they stem from. Did Beatrice really start with Sayo imagining her, or didn't it already start with the stories Kinzo and his servants told?! The character of Beatrice has, so to speak, taken on a life of her own, far beyond the confines of one persons imagination, and thus, in a certain way, "exists".
The same goes for Sayo and Maria's magical group of friends, Marriage Sorciere, which later took on darker sides in Sayo's message bottle stories. Since these stories (at least two of them) got spread and copied, and new stories involving them were forged, the characters started "existing" beyond the borders of just her stories.

The question gets a lot more difficult when it comes to Bern, Lambda, or Featherine, since these "Voyagers" and "Theatergoers" exist beyond the confines of one specific gameboard. They are not bound to the catbox that is Rokkenjima.
There are two ways I can see them.
One is the overarching purpose to portray larger "rules" and "ways of thinking", like Bern governing "miracles" and standing in for those who "love to heartlessly rip stories to shreds until only guts remain". This would make Ange's story highly allegorical.
The other is them actually existing, but having no larger influence unto the plane of human existence beyond slightly nudging people in certain directions. In that sense they'd still be a metaphor for authors and readers, basically us, the people with no emotional attachment to the stories we observe.

EDIT:
Since I apparently never added the full translation of chapter 24 (and got my hands on a cheap copy of the February issue of Joker, which will bring us the Interlude chapter as well), I decided to mend that and put the translation for that up for now.

Spoiler for EP8 Chapter 24:

p.1
Erika:
Congratulations!
At last you made it
To the full stop of your life!

Finally the truth will be unveiled.....!!

p.2
Eva-Beato:
Now you only have to take that key to Lady Bernkastel
Her cat-familiar will show you the way
There the One Truth that you long for awaits you.

Ange:
....I see.
Then I'll go and have a look

p.3
Erika:
It's been only a short while, but it was fun
It was precious time that taught me that we hold the same disgust for your family

Ange:
Same here
But next time we meet, tell me beforehand if we get served that horrible black tea again

Eva-Beato:
Ange....
are you happy now?

Ange:
To get to know that secret you maliciously kept during all those 12 years at least
Yes, I am happy.

p.4
Ange:
Huh...now I finally understand how Erika feels
To reveal your tour-de-force of murder that you protected until your death
I think I will enjoy returning all those blows

Eva-Beato:
So this all feels good to you?

Ange:
It more or less evens itself out

p.5
Eva-Beato:
Have a nice trip, Ange
This is the path that you chose
You are no longer 6 years old but already 18
You have to choose how to live your life on your own...

Erika:
You really care too much, auntie

p.6
Eva-Beato:
I will take a look at how the ceremony is proceeding, what about you?

Erika:
We will soon go to war, so I'll head for the ship.
I shall bring back Beato's corpse as a little present
then we can make a party out of disemboweling her.
I already secured her hide for myself, so we can stuff and display her

Eva-Beato:
So this
This is the end of the tale of Rokkenjima, wrapped in the veil of mystery

Erika:
That means an end to you as a piece as well
doesn't it?!

Eva-Beato:
The same goes for you.
The role of a piece is to stay loyal to their role until the end of the game.
It is not our place to think about what happens after that.

p.7
Erika:
True, true
So let us enjoy the time we have left together

Chapter 24: The Book of the One Truth

p.8
Witch-Hunter A:
Oh hello, Professor Ôtsuki!

p.9
Ôtsuki:
Oh, it must have been since the last Rokkenjima Mystery Convention that we met!
We have to do that again. With this topic there is never enough time to talk about everything.
Recently I found somebody with a most fascinating interpretation.

Witch-Hunter A:
Yes, we have to meet again!
Oh yes, that person seems to be amazing. And today it just overflows with reporters.

Ôtsuki:
Well the Rokkenjima Mystery has become such a large movement, you could call it a social phenomenon.
But today is something even more special, right?!

Witch-Hunter B:
But is it really true? Does this diary of Ushiromiya Eva really exist?
For something like that to be made public...

Ôtsuki:
Well, I also only heard rumors, that she secretly wrote down the truth of Rokkenjima...!

Witch-Hunter C:
I heard that some collector from Dubai offered to pay 10 million dollar for it...!

Witch-Hunter B:
That's awesome...it just proofs the fascination that comes with the Rokkenjima mystery

Witch-Hunter A:
So the diary is currently held by the great Itô Ikukurô...
that forgery author who is rumored to have arrived at the real truth?

Ôtsuki:
But have you already hear? That the great Itô Ikukurô........

p.10
Ôtsuki:
.....is actually the mystery writer Hachijô Tôya...

p.11
Hachijô:
...Indeed, I am Hachijô Tôya.

Reporter:
You refused to appear on any signing events in the past, going so far as to cast a body double,
so what made you change your mind so far that you agreed to go public?

Hachijô:
The Legend of the Witch of Rokkenjima has given life to endless tales.
So if you think about the meaning of lowering the curtain on something as such,
I felt it was my my duty, as the one who started all this writing, to show respect by revealing myself.

Reporter A:
You in the role as a forgery writer have claimed on the internet, to have found the truth!
Does that mean that you have already taken a look at the content of the diary?

p.12
Hachijô:
And very, very soon
it shall be made public for all of you to see.

Reporter B:
Is there any insurance that the content of the diary is actually the truth?!
There are people who claim that it could just be a one-sided personal record of events!

Hachijô:
No, I assure you,
The truth is written down in this diary

p.13
Announcer:
We will now end the interview with Hachijô-sensei! Ladies and Gentlemen of the press, we thank you all for coming today!

Reporter B:
How can you be able to claim that it is the truth?!

Reporter C:
Do you have any kind of connection to somebody involved in the incident...?

Announcer:
After this...
we are planning to move on to the photographing session of Mrs. Ushiromiya Eva's diary.

p.14
Announcer:
With this we are closing the interview session.

Reporter C:
Hachijô-sensei! Just a word about how you obtained the diary, please!

Reporter A:
So how much do you actually know about the true culprit?

Announcer:
We would like to ask everybody to move over to the convention hall!

p.15
Bern:
They showed some enthusiasm. Was it fun?

Featherine:
It's tiring
But not necessarily bad.
Nevertheless, this diary is heavy.
I will go to the waiting room to digest all that excitement for now.

Bern:
So I will borrow this.
I promised Ange, that I would show it to her first

Featherine:
Then do as you please.

p.17
Bern:
Sorry to keep you waiting.
See, I brought it with me,
The Book of the One Truth!

Ange:
Can I....touch it?

p.18
Ange:
So this is...aunt Eva's...diary...

Bern:
Yes!
In there, all that you ever wanted to know, even if it meant trading in your life, is written down.
About what happened on October 4th and 5th in 1986,
the truth.
You do have the key, right?

p.19
Bern:
No need to hurry
You may open it whenever you have prepared yourself

p.20
Ange:
In there
lies the terminal stop of my 12 year long journey full of hardship and pain.
I lived on to get this into my hands
and now that I have it I can finally go to the land of death where everybody is waiting for me.
At this point I have no more regrets.
There is no need to hesitate anymore.

p.21
Ange:
So why now of all times

p.22
Ange:
Haven't I decided a long time ago?
Decided that nobody will ever come back alive?
Decided that no matter how bloody and cruel a truth may wait for me
I will accept it?
Weren't these 12 years enough
that I want these useless days of tears and dirt to continue?

p.23
Ange:
Even now that I stand before my executioner, I don't seem to have the power to throw away that sweet hope for that miracle.
I could just puke.

p.24
Bern:
Now that you have made your choice with that key
a part of it's magic is lost

Ange:
....what magic?

Bern:
Didn't Battler tell you? That "you are unable to hand this key over to anybody else"?

p.25
Bern:
The magic of "giving you a choice" has now outlived it's role and vanished.
Now this is but a simple key
with no use but to open and lock this diary.

Ange:
...I see
So it is useless now, right?

Bern:
Can I have it then?
I will lock it once more after you have read it.
I want to have a proper ceremony when opening the lock at the party.
You will die now anyway.
So it's okay, right?!

Ange:
Do with it whatever you want...
I don't care about anything that happens after I have gained the truth.

Bern:
Then, off you go

p.26
Bern:
Before the courage to know the truth might accidentally leave you, right?!

p.27
Ange:
.......
.......one deep breath
...................
...................no
I have already gathered my resolve long ago.
I would only look foolish if I let my heart grow any more hesitant about this, so...

p.28
.............
.............
farewell, everyone....
I will come to you soon anyway
......
......so tell me

p.29-30
Ange:
What happened
on that day
on Rokkenjima...?

Eva's Diary:
I write this down in order to forget.
No. I might write this down because I actually don't want to forget.
Aah, the reason doesn't matter in the end.
If I don't spit out everything about that day
I might just go insane.

p.33-34
Ange:
..........
.........I
have heard this....
.....somewhere before....

????:
I told you countless times that there was no Gamemaster

p.35-36
Bern:
THIS IS ALL TRUTH

p.38
Ange:
This is supposed to be the truth of Rokkenjima?
I won't accept it...

Book:
You say you won't accept it? This is the truth we're talking about!!
XXXXX is the culprit!!

Ange:
But Bernkastel already denied it!
This just has to be some random ramblings, right?!
I won't accept it!
I won't accept it!!
This is just something to make me confused and ridicule me!

p.39
Book:
XXXXX and XXXXXXX killed XXXX!
They also killed XXXXX, XXXXXXXX, XXXXXX and XXXXXXX!!!

Ange:
I won't accept it
I won't accept it
I won't accept a truth like that...
I was ready!
Ready for whatever gruesome way of killing my parents that diary was to describe...
I planned to accept that

p.40
Ange:
I won't accept it......!!

Book:
NO MATTER IF YOU ACCEPT IT OR NOT, THE TRUTH WILL NOT CHANGE!!!
BECAUSE THIS IS THE ONE TRUTH THAT WAS ALREADY PROVEN BY THE RED TRUUUUUUUUUUUUUTH!!!

p.41-42
Ange:
I WON'T ALLOW THIS!
I WILL NEVER GO ALONG WITH THIS...!!

p.43
Ange:
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
The Red Truth is certain?!
That is your kind of certain, right?!
It's not my understanding of certain!!
I won't let my truth be stained by something like this!!

Bern:
Calm down, Ange.
You were the one who wanted to know, right?!

Ange:
MY TRUTH IS THAT AUNT EVA IS THE CULPRIT!!
AUNT EVA KILLED THEM ALL!! IT'S ALL HER FAULT!!

p.44
Ange:
PAPA AND MAMA AND MY BIG BROTHER, THEY ARE ALL JUST VICTIMS...!!
NONE OF THEM IS TO BLAME, RIGHT
RIGHT?!?

Eva & Eva-Beato:
Your auntie will always be at your side, Ange.

Ange:
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
AAH, NOW I UNDERSTAND THOSE WORDS!!
YES, AUNT EVA, YOU ARE THE CULPRIT!! IT HAS TO BE THAT WAY!!

p.45
Ange:
IT'S ME WHO'S RIGHT!
THE WORLD IS WEIRD FOR NOT ACCEPTING THAT!
IT'S BROKEN!!
I REFUSE THE RED TRUTH
I REFUSE THE WHOLE WORLD!!!

Bern:
Really...
Then show me a Red Truth that only you can write.
But how could a human ever write the Red Truth?

Ange:
I CAN!
I WILL SHOW YOU A RED INK THAT ONLY HUMANS CAN WRITE WITH!!

p.46
Ange:
I AM RIGHT!!
THE WORLD IS WRONG!!
I WILL WRITE IT DOWN FOR YOU
MY OWN RED TRUTH!!
DON'T EVER THINK THAT I WOULD ACCEPT TO THE TRUTH OF YOUR WOOOOOOOOOOORLD!!!

p.49
Bern:
Do you really have the resolve to know the truth...?
You didn't have it in the end after all,
that resolve.
What a bunch of fools.
Do they think that somebody could go unharmed after falling from such a height?
A safety net?
Do you think that something as thin as a safety net could actually safe a human being...?

p.50
Bern:
As the Witch of Miracles I, Bernkastel, assure you
that a miracle like that will certainly not occur.
Ushiromiya Ange definitely dies in 1998
As a result of Eva's death, Ushiromiya Ange takes off on a journey to learn the truth in '98
and the definitely dies in '98 as well.
Battler tried with so much effort to keep you from arriving at this unhappy future.
It was all just a useless struggle.

p.51
Bern:
Goodbye, Ange
Have a nice day

p.54
Eva-Beato:
This too...is part of your choice...Ange
I tried to keep you alive...
but you never actually tried living past the time when you were 6 years old.
So this is just you taking 12 long years to return to your starting point in the end.
You were able to die.
But that does not immediately mean that you will be welcomed into heaven with all the others.
Remember? You ended up here by rejecting all of them being in heaven.

p.55
Eva-Beato:
See you in hell.
...no, this was probably already it.
Farewell, Ange.

Bern:
Oh my, EVA
Just the one I was looking for

Eva-Beato:
You have orders for me, my master?

p.56
Bern:
Would you be so kind and help my kitties clean up the meat-scraps around here?
I will quickly give this back.

Eva-Beato:
What should we do with her remains?

Bern:
Just throw them all into the ocean of nothingness.
In order to expose a way to disembowel Beato she was put into a loop countless times and made a piece again and again,
but now she has completely outlived her usefulness.

Eva-Beato:
I see, my master.

p.57
Bern:
Even if you loose your name, your goal, all the memories in your soul,
keep searching for that answer you desire and suffer to your hearts content.
Get cast away to the deepest depth of oblivion, until you vanish buried under dust
for all eternity!

This is an end that is too sad...

[Becca-chan]

( Hello, I come out of lurking!)

I just want to share something that I was just working on.
It involves the bit with the Book of One Truth, well...the part where it starts telling Ange the truth that is.
I don't know if the number of X's in the text are relevant and if they aren't, just let me know.

The culprits name is comprised of 5 letters, their partner is comprised of 7 letters.

Those with 5 letters in their names are:

Spoiler for Book of one truth spoilers:

Genji
Kanon
Nanjo
Gohda
Kyrie
Maria
Kinzo

And those with 7 letters in their names are:

Spoiler for Book of one truth spoilers:

Shannon
Natsuhi
Jessica
Battler

But there is only one in each list that have actually been included in the planning of Sayo's stories...
So filling in the blanks and guessing that the truth-in-question is saying about what really happened in the Gold Room and the after-effects.

Spoiler for Book of one truth spoilers:

" Genji is the culprit!!

Genji and Shannon killed Rosa!
They also killed Gohda, Kumasawa, Krauss and Natsuhi!!!"

Of course that's just one variation of the outcomes.

[AuraTwilight]

Counting letters isn't very helpful considering the original text is in Japanese, which would have a different character count for everyone's names. :P

[fuff]

Originally Posted by haguruma

This is not an easy question to answer since it is one of the main points of Umineko as a whole to draw the line between truth and fiction into question. There is also no absolute consensus among the fans regarding that topic either, so I can only give you an outline of my ideas (also not wanting to spoil you too much, since you apparently haven't finished EP8 as the VN yet).

As I said, this is according to my personal understanding:
To understand the nature of the witches and demons sorrounding Rokkenjima, we have to question where they stem from. Did Beatrice really start with Sayo imagining her, or didn't it already start with the stories Kinzo and his servants told?! The character of Beatrice has, so to speak, taken on a life of her own, far beyond the confines of one persons imagination, and thus, in a certain way, "exists".
The same goes for Sayo and Maria's magical group of friends, Marriage Sorciere, which later took on darker sides in Sayo's message bottle stories. Since these stories (at least two of them) got spread and copied, and new stories involving them were forged, the characters started "existing" beyond the borders of just her stories.

The question gets a lot more difficult when it comes to Bern, Lambda, or Featherine, since these "Voyagers" and "Theatergoers" exist beyond the confines of one specific gameboard. They are not bound to the catbox that is Rokkenjima.
There are two ways I can see them.
One is the overarching purpose to portray larger "rules" and "ways of thinking", like Bern governing "miracles" and standing in for those who "love to heartlessly rip stories to shreds until only guts remain". This would make Ange's story highly allegorical.
The other is them actually existing, but having no larger influence unto the plane of human existence beyond slightly nudging people in certain directions. In that sense they'd still be a metaphor for authors and readers, basically us, the people with no emotional attachment to the stories we observe.

EDIT:
Since I apparently never added the full translation of chapter 24 (and got my hands on a cheap copy of the February issue of Joker, which will bring us the Interlude chapter as well), I decided to mend that and put the translation for that up for now.

Spoiler for EP8 Chapter 24:

p.1
Erika:
Congratulations!
At last you made it
To the full stop of your life!

Finally the truth will be unveiled.....!!

p.2
Eva-Beato:
Now you only have to take that key to Lady Bernkastel
Her cat-familiar will show you the way
There the One Truth that you long for awaits you.

Ange:
....I see.
Then I'll go and have a look

p.3
Erika:
It's been only a short while, but it was fun
It was precious time that taught me that we hold the same disgust for your family

Ange:
Same here
But next time we meet, tell me beforehand if we get served that horrible black tea again

Eva-Beato:
Ange....
are you happy now?

Ange:
To get to know that secret you maliciously kept during all those 12 years at least
Yes, I am happy.

p.4
Ange:
Huh...now I finally understand how Erika feels
To reveal your tour-de-force of murder that you protected until your death
I think I will enjoy returning all those blows

Eva-Beato:
So this all feels good to you?

Ange:
It more or less evens itself out

p.5
Eva-Beato:
Have a nice trip, Ange
This is the path that you chose
You are no longer 6 years old but already 18
You have to choose how to live your life on your own...

Erika:
You really care too much, auntie

p.6
Eva-Beato:
I will take a look at how the ceremony is proceeding, what about you?

Erika:
We will soon go to war, so I'll head for the ship.
I shall bring back Beato's corpse as a little present
then we can make a party out of disemboweling her.
I already secured her hide for myself, so we can stuff and display her

Eva-Beato:
So this
This is the end of the tale of Rokkenjima, wrapped in the veil of mystery

Erika:
That means an end to you as a piece as well
doesn't it?!

Eva-Beato:
The same goes for you.
The role of a piece is to stay loyal to their role until the end of the game.
It is not our place to think about what happens after that.

p.7
Erika:
True, true
So let us enjoy the time we have left together

Chapter 24: The Book of the One Truth

p.8
Witch-Hunter A:
Oh hello, Professor Ôtsuki!

p.9
Ôtsuki:
Oh, it must have been since the last Rokkenjima Mystery Convention that we met!
We have to do that again. With this topic there is never enough time to talk about everything.
Recently I found somebody with a most fascinating interpretation.

Witch-Hunter A:
Yes, we have to meet again!
Oh yes, that person seems to be amazing. And today it just overflows with reporters.

Ôtsuki:
Well the Rokkenjima Mystery has become such a large movement, you could call it a social phenomenon.
But today is something even more special, right?!

Witch-Hunter B:
But is it really true? Does this diary of Ushiromiya Eva really exist?
For something like that to be made public...

Ôtsuki:
Well, I also only heard rumors, that she secretly wrote down the truth of Rokkenjima...!

Witch-Hunter C:
I heard that some collector from Dubai offered to pay 10 million dollar for it...!

Witch-Hunter B:
That's awesome...it just proofs the fascination that comes with the Rokkenjima mystery

Witch-Hunter A:
So the diary is currently held by the great Itô Ikukurô...
that forgery author who is rumored to have arrived at the real truth?

Ôtsuki:
But have you already hear? That the great Itô Ikukurô........

p.10
Ôtsuki:
.....is actually the mystery writer Hachijô Tôya...

p.11
Hachijô:
...Indeed, I am Hachijô Tôya.

Reporter:
You refused to appear on any signing events in the past, going so far as to cast a body double,
so what made you change your mind so far that you agreed to go public?

Hachijô:
The Legend of the Witch of Rokkenjima has given life to endless tales.
So if you think about the meaning of lowering the curtain on something as such,
I felt it was my my duty, as the one who started all this writing, to show respect by revealing myself.

Reporter A:
You in the role as a forgery writer have claimed on the internet, to have found the truth!
Does that mean that you have already taken a look at the content of the diary?

p.12
Hachijô:
And very, very soon
it shall be made public for all of you to see.

Reporter B:
Is there any insurance that the content of the diary is actually the truth?!
There are people who claim that it could just be a one-sided personal record of events!

Hachijô:
No, I assure you,
The truth is written down in this diary

p.13
Announcer:
We will now end the interview with Hachijô-sensei! Ladies and Gentlemen of the press, we thank you all for coming today!

Reporter B:
How can you be able to claim that it is the truth?!

Reporter C:
Do you have any kind of connection to somebody involved in the incident...?

Announcer:
After this...
we are planning to move on to the photographing session of Mrs. Ushiromiya Eva's diary.

p.14
Announcer:
With this we are closing the interview session.

Reporter C:
Hachijô-sensei! Just a word about how you obtained the diary, please!

Reporter A:
So how much do you actually know about the true culprit?

Announcer:
We would like to ask everybody to move over to the convention hall!

p.15
Bern:
They showed some enthusiasm. Was it fun?

Featherine:
It's tiring
But not necessarily bad.
Nevertheless, this diary is heavy.
I will go to the waiting room to digest all that excitement for now.

Bern:
So I will borrow this.
I promised Ange, that I would show it to her first

Featherine:
Then do as you please.

p.17
Bern:
Sorry to keep you waiting.
See, I brought it with me,
The Book of the One Truth!

Ange:
Can I....touch it?

p.18
Ange:
So this is...aunt Eva's...diary...

Bern:
Yes!
In there, all that you ever wanted to know, even if it meant trading in your life, is written down.
About what happened on October 4th and 5th in 1986,
the truth.
You do have the key, right?

p.19
Bern:
No need to hurry
You may open it whenever you have prepared yourself

p.20
Ange:
In there
lies the terminal stop of my 12 year long journey full of hardship and pain.
I lived on to get this into my hands
and now that I have it I can finally go to the land of death where everybody is waiting for me.
At this point I have no more regrets.
There is no need to hesitate anymore.

p.21
Ange:
So why now of all times

p.22
Ange:
Haven't I decided a long time ago?
Decided that nobody will ever come back alive?
Decided that no matter how bloody and cruel a truth may wait for me
I will accept it?
Weren't these 12 years enough
that I want these useless days of tears and dirt to continue?

p.23
Ange:
Even now that I stand before my executioner, I don't seem to have the power to throw away that sweet hope for that miracle.
I could just puke.

p.24
Bern:
Now that you have made your choice with that key
a part of it's magic is lost

Ange:
....what magic?

Bern:
Didn't Battler tell you? That "you are unable to hand this key over to anybody else"?

p.25
Bern:
The magic of "giving you a choice" has now outlived it's role and vanished.
Now this is but a simple key
with no use but to open and lock this diary.

Ange:
...I see
So it is useless now, right?

Bern:
Can I have it then?
I will lock it once more after you have read it.
I want to have a proper ceremony when opening the lock at the party.
You will die now anyway.
So it's okay, right?!

Ange:
Do with it whatever you want...
I don't care about anything that happens after I have gained the truth.

Bern:
Then, off you go

p.26
Bern:
Before the courage to know the truth might accidentally leave you, right?!

p.27
Ange:
.......
.......one deep breath
...................
...................no
I have already gathered my resolve long ago.
I would only look foolish if I let my heart grow any more hesitant about this, so...

p.28
.............
.............
farewell, everyone....
I will come to you soon anyway
......
......so tell me

p.29-30
Ange:
What happened
on that day
on Rokkenjima...?

Eva's Diary:
I write this down in order to forget.
No. I might write this down because I actually don't want to forget.
Aah, the reason doesn't matter in the end.
If I don't spit out everything about that day
I might just go insane.

p.33-34
Ange:
..........
.........I
have heard this....
.....somewhere before....

????:
I told you countless times that there was no Gamemaster

p.35-36
Bern:
THIS IS ALL TRUTH

p.38
Ange:
This is supposed to be the truth of Rokkenjima?
I won't accept it...

Book:
You say you won't accept it? This is the truth we're talking about!!
XXXXX is the culprit!!

Ange:
But Bernkastel already denied it!
This just has to be some random ramblings, right?!
I won't accept it!
I won't accept it!!
This is just something to make me confused and ridicule me!

p.39
Book:
XXXXX and XXXXXXX killed XXXX!
They also killed XXXXX, XXXXXXXX, XXXXXX and XXXXXXX!!!

Ange:
I won't accept it
I won't accept it
I won't accept a truth like that...
I was ready!
Ready for whatever gruesome way of killing my parents that diary was to describe...
I planned to accept that

p.40
Ange:
I won't accept it......!!

Book:
NO MATTER IF YOU ACCEPT IT OR NOT, THE TRUTH WILL NOT CHANGE!!!
BECAUSE THIS IS THE ONE TRUTH THAT WAS ALREADY PROVEN BY THE RED TRUUUUUUUUUUUUUTH!!!

p.41-42
Ange:
I WON'T ALLOW THIS!
I WILL NEVER GO ALONG WITH THIS...!!

p.43
Ange:
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
The Red Truth is certain?!
That is your kind of certain, right?!
It's not my understanding of certain!!
I won't let my truth be stained by something like this!!

Bern:
Calm down, Ange.
You were the one who wanted to know, right?!

Ange:
MY TRUTH IS THAT AUNT EVA IS THE CULPRIT!!
AUNT EVA KILLED THEM ALL!! IT'S ALL HER FAULT!!

p.44
Ange:
PAPA AND MAMA AND MY BIG BROTHER, THEY ARE ALL JUST VICTIMS...!!
NONE OF THEM IS TO BLAME, RIGHT
RIGHT?!?

Eva & Eva-Beato:
Your auntie will always be at your side, Ange.

Ange:
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
AAH, NOW I UNDERSTAND THOSE WORDS!!
YES, AUNT EVA, YOU ARE THE CULPRIT!! IT HAS TO BE THAT WAY!!

p.45
Ange:
IT'S ME WHO'S RIGHT!
THE WORLD IS WEIRD FOR NOT ACCEPTING THAT!
IT'S BROKEN!!
I REFUSE THE RED TRUTH
I REFUSE THE WHOLE WORLD!!!

Bern:
Really...
Then show me a Red Truth that only you can write.
But how could a human ever write the Red Truth?

Ange:
I CAN!
I WILL SHOW YOU A RED INK THAT ONLY HUMANS CAN WRITE WITH!!

p.46
Ange:
I AM RIGHT!!
THE WORLD IS WRONG!!
I WILL WRITE IT DOWN FOR YOU
MY OWN RED TRUTH!!
DON'T EVER THINK THAT I WOULD ACCEPT TO THE TRUTH OF YOUR WOOOOOOOOOOORLD!!!

p.49
Bern:
Do you really have the resolve to know the truth...?
You didn't have it in the end after all,
that resolve.
What a bunch of fools.
Do they think that somebody could go unharmed after falling from such a height?
A safety net?
Do you think that something as thin as a safety net could actually safe a human being...?

p.50
Bern:
As the Witch of Miracles I, Bernkastel, assure you
that a miracle like that will certainly not occur.
Ushiromiya Ange definitely dies in 1998
As a result of Eva's death, Ushiromiya Ange takes off on a journey to learn the truth in '98
and the definitely dies in '98 as well.
Battler tried with so much effort to keep you from arriving at this unhappy future.
It was all just a useless struggle.

p.51
Bern:
Goodbye, Ange
Have a nice day

p.54
Eva-Beato:
This too...is part of your choice...Ange
I tried to keep you alive...
but you never actually tried living past the time when you were 6 years old.
So this is just you taking 12 long years to return to your starting point in the end.
You were able to die.
But that does not immediately mean that you will be welcomed into heaven with all the others.
Remember? You ended up here by rejecting all of them being in heaven.

p.55
Eva-Beato:
See you in hell.
...no, this was probably already it.
Farewell, Ange.

Bern:
Oh my, EVA
Just the one I was looking for

Eva-Beato:
You have orders for me, my master?

p.56
Bern:
Would you be so kind and help my kitties clean up the meat-scraps around here?
I will quickly give this back.

Eva-Beato:
What should we do with her remains?

Bern:
Just throw them all into the ocean of nothingness.
In order to expose a way to disembowel Beato she was put into a loop countless times and made a piece again and again,
but now she has completely outlived her usefulness.

Eva-Beato:
I see, my master.

p.57
Bern:
Even if you loose your name, your goal, all the memories in your soul,
keep searching for that answer you desire and suffer to your hearts content.
Get cast away to the deepest depth of oblivion, until you vanish buried under dust
for all eternity!

This is an end that is too sad...

wow this confusing hahah so basically, its like they were a myth/story first but they started existing?(the furniture,gapp, etc) but as for bern and lamba and featherine they always existed and treated it like a big game?!

this is so confusing! its okay if you spoil it to me haha i looked at wiki about the ending and such expecially after looking at the manga about ange diving to her death after learning the truth because i was like wtf that cant just end it off like that...


another question...i kinda looked that ps3 ending dialogues and it was like battler meet everyone at the end...was this kinda like saying battler passed away?! i dunno kinda confused :S

[AuraTwilight]

Basically, the Meta-World seems to be a plane of existence where imaginary things are true. Who can speak on where Bern and Lambda came from, but they've been around a lot longer. Beatrice and her furniture are imaginary concepts created on Rokkenjima, but at the same time they exist in the Meta-World, and might have always been there. At the same time, the written stories and gameboards of Rokkenjima exist as alternate universes there.

The Meta-World basically seems to be a place where everything is real and nothing is fiction.

[Becca-chan]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Counting letters isn't very helpful considering the original text is in Japanese, which would have a different character count for everyone's names. :P

Ack! sorry, e-heh though maybe that's just as well.
I was pretty freaked out when I was trying to come up with those variations.

Maria as the culprit...as if she couldn't be creepy already.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Becca-chan

Ack! sorry, e-heh though maybe that's just as well.
I was pretty freaked out when I was trying to come up with those variations.

Maria as the culprit...as if she couldn't be creepy already.

Well, I was trying to keep it as close as possible to what we see in this rendition of the BotOT.
In the Japanese version it is　＊＊が犯人ッ!! ＊＊がッ＊＊＊がッ＊＊を殺したッ！＊＊を＊＊を＊＊を＊＊＊をッ!!!, which means the culprit has two Kanji (戦人、霧江、絵羽、秀吉、譲治、蔵臼、夏妃、楼座、紗音、観音、金蔵、源次、南條、熊沢、郷田 ), and one person with two Kanji and one person with three (留弗夫、朱志香、真里亞) Kanji killed a person with two, another three with two and one with three Kanji.

On another note, I got the February issue of Joker and the Interlude chapter in my mail yesterday. The chapter isn't that long and there's not that much new content that I'd rank it as interesting as CotGW or the last few main chapters, but it still delivers a good idea what life was like for the Hachijôs and an approximate indication of time scales.

Spoiler for EP8 Interlude:

Within the pitch-black darkness...

p.1
???:
I can hear it all the time
what is this sound

p.2-3
???:
..…
..…the sound of rain......?
...How long
...…
have I been here for...

p.5
Narrator:
...…
......

Ikuko:
...is this your garden?
If this is your garden, I should be the one apologizing.
I see, one wants to take an afternoon nap and dress up in such a wonderful garden on a day with such nice weather.
But if my memory doesn't fault me

p.6
Ikuko:
this is a national public road.
Do you want to be turned into minced meat that badly?
Or have you already been minced?
Whatever it is, I wish you would tell me.

???:
..…
..…uh
uuh...

p.7
Ikuko:
I see...
So you're not minced meat yet

p.8
Umineko no naku koro ni Episode 8: Twilight of the Golden Witch
Interlude – Hachijô Ikuko

Doctor:
He is almost completely wasted away.

p.9
Doctor:
Beyond that, the probability of memory impairment are quite high.
I can't know any further without a CT scan, but it is possible that the brain has been damaged.
But it merely seems to be damaged and overall he seems fine.
If he had kept lying there it wouldn't have ended this well for him though.
So,
at any rate, I advise that you should have him looked at in a bigger hospital.

Ikuko:
Thank you, Doctor.
...I would like you to keep this case secret.
This isn't much, but please accept it as a travel compensation for your house call.

Doctor:
I won't reveal this to anyone...
But I simply cannot accept this money

p.10
Ikuko:
Oh my, you've woken up.
How are you feeling now?
I am Hachijô Ikuko.
You can just call me Ikuko or stay formal and say Miss Hachijô, I don't mind either way.

Narrator:
Hachijô...
Ikuko...

Ikuko:
Around these parts the Hachijô family is quite well known as big landowners.
But compared to the good records of my big brothers I am a little weird and have had a few slippages.

p.11
Ikuko:
I have done quite a lot of wrong things, so I've long lost my parents grace. They've given up on me.
They basically keep me confined to this place now.
My hobby is reading and writing mystery and detective novels.
My age is a secret and I am single.
My heart is that of a young girl, but I am already approaching an age where it's just kind of ridiculous to say that.
Hihihihi

Narrator:
..….

Ikuko:
Well then
What is your name?

p.12
Narrator:
......My
Name.......
.........
.....?
My name is.......?
Name is......

???:
...ngh
.....gngh

p.13
Narrator:
My
name is...?
I can't remember.
I can't remember...?
Even though I understand logically that I have a name, I can't recall any more than that I am human
My head and my heart, it's torn up as if it's ground meat
I can't remember anything.........

p.13
???:
Who...
am I.........??

Narrator:
I don't understand...
But I had some kind of mission...or a goal I think

Ikuko:
So, do you remember anything else besides your name?

Narrator:
The back of my brain feels numb
Who am I?
Where was I born?
When was I born?
I don't care, I just want to remember anything...
...a...ge...

p.14
Ikuko:
Age?
My age is a secret!

???:
18
years...?

Ikuko:
I look like 18?

???:
.......I am....
...18...years old...

Ikuko:
Oh, you meant your own age
And I already thought you started flattering me

p.15-16
Calendar:
October

Narrtor:
To be quite honest
I only had a vague feeling about actually being 18
It felt as if my spirit had stayed young forever and just my silly body had continued aging
Just...when I asked myself about my age, the number ''18'' floated to the surface...

Ikuko:
I see, so you are 18
And you don't remember anything other than that...
then how about, until you remember your own name,
we give you a name that is written as 18 in Japanese, with the reading Tôya?!
Hachijô Tôya...
how about it?
Yeah, I think that's quite manly
I've chosen well, yes yes!

Tôya:
Hachijô...
Tôya...

p.17
Narrator:
And from then onwards
I became known as Hachijô Tôya
I was being told that my body couldn't move properly because of a traffic incident I had been in
I was hit by a car right there on that day
and then apparently picked up by Ikuko who found me collapsed.
The unkind thought that it must have been her and no other who had hit me on that day came to sometimes
but I drew it back once I saw that there was not even a scratch on the bumper of her car.

p.18
Narrator:
I continued my rehabilitation slowly, while I was being taken care of at her house.
Step by step I regained control over my body.
Yet...

Ikuko:
Tôya?

Narrator:
The impairment of my brain wouldn't get better.

p.19
Ikuko:
I was really surprised.
You became totally entranced and then read through it in one go...as if you just flew over the sentences...
It seems like your quite crafted at speed-reading.
...so how was it? Honest impression.

Tôya:
It was really good!
You should just maybe insert an explanation of the ocean currents, or else it's unfair as a detective novel.
But it was so good that there was foreshadowing about the ring from the very beginning.
I unconsciously started growling when I read over that part again...!
But that feeling is the epitome of detective fiction, I think!

p.20
Tôya:
...uhm
I think I said something rude...
...I'm sorry

Ikuko:
No!
Why are you apologizing?
I am just surprised!
Such accurate impressions are absolutely worthy of praise!
Are you a literary critic by any chance?
You seem to even have some talent as a mystery author yourself!

Narrator:
.......
......

p.21
Narrator:
...detective novels
author...
critique...
a mystery
battle
I have this feeling that I exchanged arguments about this topic before
...............

Tôya:
Thank you
It's better already

Ikuko:
Tôya!
If you want you can have surgery any time.

Narrator:
Brain surgery
If I undergo that surgery, even if there is no guarantee that it will restore my memory, it would at least lessen the frequency of the headaches, the doctor said.

Tôya:
.......
....no
I have already gotten used...to this headache being a part of me

Narrator:
Actually

p.22
Narrator:
I was afraid that the true me, sleeping somewhere in my brain, might get hurt during surgery.
I am now a new person called Hachijô Tôya,
and I have to get used to this new life.
Gradually my interest shifted towards Ikuko.
She was a peculiar woman.
She was way too rebellious
She lived in this mansion that she got from her parents in turns of being disinherited
while making her servants do everything for her and living a life in luxury.

p.23
Narrator:
She seems to have never been that sociable, there's not even friends coming to visit her.
The only company to talk with she has is me and her old cat Bern.
She seems to be at an age where she would be just about still marriagable*, but practically being retired in a place like this, it's no wonder she doesn't meet anybody.
I suppose she must have already given up on marriage.
Her daily life is quite monotonous.
Ordering or searching for mystery novels, or writing something herself
it was either one of those.
At first I thought she was a professional mystery writer, but her drafts always ended up being clipped together and thrown on a pile of other drafts.
I didn't ever notice her letting somebody beside me read them.

p.24
Narrator:
Being an author is a profession where you make other people read what you have written
So somebody like her, who doesn't let anybody read what she writes, can impossibly called an author.

Tôya:
Ikuko, why do you never show these drafts to anybody?

Ikuko:
I'm showing them to you.
Of course only the ones I'm satisfied with.

Tôya:
It's kind of sad. I bet it would be great if you applied to a publisher somehwere.

Ikuko:
My works are not pro-material
I send one in once, but it wasn't any good.
It's nothing more than amateur entertainment.

Tôya:
Somebody with knowledge of any kind of mystery novels and trends
doesn't really have the right to call herself an amateur.

Ikuko:
A gormaunt doesn't automatically make a good cook.
This is no different.

p.25
Tôya:
...Is it really fun to write novels that nobody will ever see?

Ikuko:
...It was fun once

Tôya:
And now?

Ikuko:
Now it is fun to hear your impression.
I have finished the first chapter for the time being.
I will have some tea ordered, so please let me hear your oppinion on it.

p.26
Narrator:
No matter if it's reading or writing mystery novels
it just has to be boring if it is just on your own.
Sharing your world with somebody
anything special will surely just grow larger.

Tôya:
.......?

Ikuko:
Tôya?

Tôya:
...I'm alright. More importantly
I am looking forward to reading the new chapter.

p.27-28
We spent our days together with discourses on mystery novels, as well as talking about new plots and ideas.
Before I knew it I was lured in by her and stepped into the world of drawing up my own mystery novels.
It seemed like my former self had possessed quite a talent for mystery novels.
Using intimate knowledge of famous mysteries and turning them on their heads by keeping to think about new ideas to insert.
She helped me cultivate that writing skill she had picked up upon.
During this days of creating mystery novels as a team to amuse just the two of us, nothing really changed for the better – yet we were content.
This was my new life as Hachijô Tôya –

Tôya:
You really do live a long time, do you?!

p.29
Tôya:
Could it be that you are actually a ghost cat?

Ikuko:
Tôya, the manuscript is finished!!
So what do we do now?
I used your plot, but I made the tragic love story of Tsujiko even more sad at the end.

Manuscript:
...by doing this, the curtain is lowered on my mysterious tale of Kokushuto. <J>

Tôya:
I think that's great...!
With the last farewell being really sad, it didn't just work out as a detective novel but as a general piece of fiction too.

p.30
Ikuko:
It was only because I had your great plot as a basis
Compared to this work, all my previous attempts are nothing more than scrap-paper.
I felt so enthralled while writing, being the first in the world to actually read it...it's the first time I ever felt this way!

Tôya:
I only put some ideas out there.
No story is finished with just ideas.
You were the one who made it possible for them to bloom into a proper story like this.
This is a masterpiece that you don't need to hide from anybody...!

Ikuko:
You are right...!
This is the greatest piece of fiction I have ever created...!
So let's celebrate!

p.31
Tôya:
Ikuko, I have a proposition to make. May I?

Ikuko:
Let's hear it!
When it comes to your ideas, I will always lend you an ear...unless I'm in the shower or on the toilet...!

Tôya:
Why don't we try and hand in our joint piece of work?
I have never read any piece of fiction better than this.
I bet a lot of people will come up dying to read this.

Ikuko:
But...I also thought so back then...and then in the end...

p.32
Tôya:
I firmly believe in your talent, Ikuko!
How about you?

Ikuko:
I also firmly believe in your talent...!

Tôya:
Then it's decided!
To your major debut, Ikuko...!

Ikuko:
To your major debut, Tôya...!

p.34
Ikuko:
Of course, I totally forgot, Tôya!!
I also thought about opening this here once we finish the manuscript!

Tôya:
Ikuko, I can't...
I can't drink any more...
I'm tired...

Ikuko:
Hahaha
It's alright, Tôya. This is something which might be way better than alcohol!

Tôya:
Yeah...doesn't look like alcohol...
but...I can't...
so...tired...

p.35
Narrator:
.......rain

p.36
Tôya:
............
Ikuko, please turn the lights on.
It's not good for your eyes to sit at the computer in the dark.

Ikuko:
...Oh
Did I wake you up?

Tôya:
No, the sound of rain...
And the wind seems so strong
The raingutter will clutter with leaves again...

Narrator:
...rain.......
Just like on that day when I was picked up by Ikuko...
........

p.37
Tôya:
You are quite enthusiastic about the computer lately.
Was there some interesting article on the Internet?

Ikuko:
While I think it's complete hogwash, it is quite fascinating.
Tôya....
what do you think are the motives for people to kill one another?

Tôya:
Is that material for a new novel?
Social standing, honor, revenge, money...things like that right?

Ikuko:
In the world of mysteries, yes.
But in reality overwhelming numbers are unplanned, sudden murders resulting out of a trivial quarrel or some strange tension just in that moment...

p.38
Ikuko:
From a psychological perspective
men do it for social standing, or fame, or even to make a lover forever theirs,
women do it to escape from somebody who keeps them bound
and most undiscriminate killers do it out of a suicide wish,
they recreate themselves in a way that they are worthy of death and commit murder to give themselves determination to end it.

Tôya:
.......
Are you thinking about creating a story where motive is the main theme next?

Ikuko:
Hihihi
It is really fascinating

p.39
Ikuko:
That Rokkenjima Incident we had been talking about!

p.40:
Tôya:
...Rokken
...jima...?

Ikuko:
A few days ago we talked about the Rokkenjima mystery, right?!
That incident where culprit, motive, even the circumstances of the day of the crime remain a mystery.
And that is booming right now on the net!
The theories and thoughts about it
and among them those forgeries, they are really fascinating!
Forgeries are written on the hypothesis that there exist more than that one message bottle signed by Ushiromiya Maria that drifted ashore on that neighbouring island...
Here, look at this!
A few days ago,
I picked this up at the ocean near the road where I picked you up and I thought we would read it together.
But more than a forgery it's content was like the message bottle from „And Then There Were None“!

p.41
Ikuko:
But it's content was really interesting...!
Maybe by some chance an author of really elaborate forgeries lives just close by!
Or this might even be the real deal, a message bottle by the culprit!

p.42
Internet-site:
[Rokkenjima Explosion Accident]
Occured on October 5th 1986 at 24o'clock on Rokkenjima within the Izu archipelago.
It is rumored that, seeking after the great fortune and hidden gold of family head Ushiromiya Kinzô, a fight where blood was avenged by blood broke out among the family members, but the truth is still within a catbox.
Going by the scale of the explosion, it is hard to think of it as a mere accident,
and the likelihood of a planned mass murder is high.

Narrator:
Who

Internet-site:
...survivor Ushiromiya Eva keeps her silence.
...following her death, since she escaped harm by being absent on said date...
...miya Ange will inherit her whole fortune.
...took over raising Ange immediately after the incident,
...makes one consider it being part of a performance.
...shiromiya Ange

Narrator:
Who are these voices calling out my name?
I don't know them!

Ikuko:
...Tôya?

Narrator:
That is
not my name!

Tôya:
..........
......ah

p.45
Narrator:
Help me...
Iku...ko......

Ikuko:
Tôya...!!

p.46
Ikuko:
TÔYA...!!

Paperstack from Message Bottle:
Confession of the golden witch

From next time onward the confession of the Golden Witch shall be told–!!

From what it sounds and looks like, I'd say that Tôya lived with Ikuko quite a while before the topic of Rokkenjima even came up. The way the chapter depicts Ikuko also makes it fairly unlikely that she is Sayo...or Sayo has an actual problem with multiple personalities (or is the biggest dick in the world to everybody including herself). I mean, why would she spent YEARS with the person she loves, make him a completely new person, only to spring the incident on him almost a decade later.
I'd say the events sorrounding the uncorking of CotGW don't happen until around 1993-95 for several factors. The chapter depicts a long line of scene-to-scene panels, depicting Ikuko and Tôya growing close over an extended period of time, the internet-article clearly mentions the inheritance towards Ange and Eva's death (which apparently only became a central thing when Ange was already in her teens), also internet itself only became a thing in the early 90s and wasn't commonly available until the mid 90s in Japan.

I also find it interesting how Tôya faints before he can apparently read CotGW and that only Ikuko has read it at that point.

[Void_Heart]

First time poster, long time lurker.

Upon reading this part I thought it was incredibly interesting

From a psychological perspective
men do it for social standing, or fame, or even to make a lover forever theirs,
women do it to escape from somebody who keeps them bound
and most undiscriminate killers do it out of a suicide wish,
they recreate themselves in a way that they are worthy of death and commit murder to give themselves determination to end it.

While we already knew beforehand that Sayo had gender issues, Ikukko was able to identify almost all of his/her motives and assign a gender towards each motive. Even ignoring the gender issues, she identified how Sayo made herself into a culprit, so the murder-suicide looks justified.

This is especially odd, when judging by the narrative it looks like to confession bottle hasn't been opened yet (assuming she was going to open it with Tohya. Without the images it's hard to tell.)

Originally Posted by haguruma

I also find it interesting how Tôya faints before he can apparently read CotGW and that only Ikuko has read it at that point.

Nevermind, it looks as though Ikuko did read the book, judging by your description.

Incidentally, as my 2nd post here, I wanted to thank you for bringing us up to date with manga translations, I'm sure everybody greatly appreciates it.

[DaBackpack]

I seem to have fallen behind on the out-of-VN canon... So I've read the games and various TIP translations, but does someone have a list of the other canon works like this "CotGW"? Or are these mostly just from the manga?

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Void_Heart

This is especially odd, when judging by the narrative it looks like to confession bottle hasn't been opened yet (assuming she was going to open it with Tohya. Without the images it's hard to tell.)

I will try to make some pictures, when looking at them it's clear that Ikuko opened the bottle after Tôya fell asleep. She is basically a different person after he wakes up, totally obsessed with the Rokkenjima incident. That is why she says that she had "wanted to read it together" and that it s not a forgery but more like the confession from the end of And Then There Were None.

I found that interesting as I said, since Tôya faints without having read the confession (as it seems) and without completely remembering Ange (but having flashes when reading her name in internet articles). So if we wanted to place a point where the meta-Beatrice of the first few games started, that could be here.

Originally Posted by DaBackpack

I seem to have fallen behind on the out-of-VN canon... So I've read the games and various TIP translations, but does someone have a list of the other canon works like this "CotGW"? Or are these mostly just from the manga?

It's just manga information. The last two EP7 chapters delivered the solution of the first 4 games as in the VN but with more information both in pictures and text, and the EP8 manga has been a completely revised version of the VN, adding much more content in.
Confession of the Golden Witch (CotGW) is a bonus-story which ran in the March till May issue of GANGAN-Joker and showed the whole content of Sayo's confession found by Ikuko in the Interlude chapter. You can find links to my translation posts on the current last page of the manga thread.