Shin Sekai Yori - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

[Arya]

Kirarakim there's no need to apologize. And on my part I probably accentuated my argumentation for the sake of discussion.

[Squarecrow]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

On another note people who have read the book keep pointing out that things will be explained but people like to scream plot hole before they know the whole story, that is what is silly to me.

And this is a problem - this is an anime thread. We have book readers using their book knowledge to discredit others, even when the anime hasn't gotten to those points yet or it may never get to them. Things have been left out, someone mentioned in this thread they left out that it took 2-3 years before Maria's and Mamoru's bones were delivered to the village. That's pretty huge and we don't even know (in the anime) if the village did anything about it after Saki and Satoru came back without them. I've seen it mentioned that the village did nothing to prevent something like this but that isn't true, they just thought they accounted for everyone in the village (which seems silly if they knew a male and female were out of their control for 2 entire years). They didn't want children interacting with the rats and they even suggested after that one rat war that one side had a PK user, so they must have thought about it before.

[Rosalena]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Arya, I think I agree the society has thrown out some of their humanity to survive. The very fact that they fear their own children is proof of this.

I was just disagreeing that they don't show signs of humanity at all, but I apologize if I misunderstood you.

I'm inclined to disagree with you, Kirarakim. In fact, I really don't see how you've come to that conclusion at all. Being afraid of their own children is not indicative that they have somehow "thrown out some of their humanity." You're imposing your own sense of what it means to be human on a group of people who live in a fictional world much different than our own.

I think you would be better off imagining how you would react if you were born into and grew up in such a society. Your notions of what "humanity" means would be entirely different. The people in the world of Shinsekai Yori have every reason to be afraid of the potential harm their children could do. That's very different than being afraid of the children themselves. They are only afraid of the power that lies within the child.

I'm not ashamed to admit that if I lived in their world I would feel the same way

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Rosalena

I'm inclined to disagree with you, Kirarakim. In fact, I really don't see how you've come to that conclusion at all.

... So I take it that Maria's farewell letter to Saki had no impact on you at all?

It's not hard at all to see how Kirarakim came to her conclusion when the narrative itself supports such a conclusion, imo.


And if culling your own children is not inhuman, then I don't know what it is. That's one "imposition" I think all of us should feel free to make.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Gohan78

My point is that they have absolutely zero defences against an adult akki. Tomiko compared humans in their world to nuclear weapons. When you deal with such weapons, almost 100% accuracy is not enough. You need to be 100% safe or you need to have some sort of contingency plan.



I don't expect perfection, I expect the diligence of the average person.
Even I can come up with 4-5 methods to deal with the akki (poisonous gas, firearms, traps, a bakenezumi guard, etc.). It's a bit difficult to swallow that those people never thought up any countermeasure in 200 years, especially since they had an eyewitness (Tomiko) who knew how dangerous an akki is.
If a threat is so big that it can wipe out your village in a matter of minutes, you can't just rely on preventive measures. You just can't. I like this anime a lot but I must stress that this is a glaring plothole, sorry.


Tomiko, who was the most knowledgeable person in the village, basically said the they were screwed. So no, I don't think that there are any countermeasures.

They do have countermeasures, but that doesn't mean they work. Saki's parents were sent to release all the cats to kill the fiend. They had a bakenezumi guard to do the dirty work and kill out of control Cantus users, but that turned against them as well.

That leaves... poisonous gas and firearms - both of which aren't fool-proof either. Satoru showed that his Cantus is easily capable of defying physics and removed all the explosive oil. Anyone with their own Cantus can neutralize poisonous gas. It also should have been glaringly obvious that conventional firearms do not work either: Satoru and Saki as children came out of the Ground Spider colony's attack unscathed, albeit tired from the journey. The fiend also has experience dealing with firearms from Kiroumaru's army.
A surprise attack is not a guaranteed answer, either - while the fiend may be a child, Squealer is just as smart as if not smarter than Saki, Satoru, or any adult and is more than capable of preparing for the case if they were capable of pulling a surprise attack.



Also, a tip about plans: having one does not guarantee its success. There are bomb shelters in the case a nuclear bomb is dropped. Are you willing to bet your life that you would really come out unscathed if a nuke was dropped onto the shelter you were hiding in?
As a bonus, counter examples from other forms of fiction: Cadmus vs the Justice League. A government funded military organization is preparing for the worst case scenario where the heroes of the Justice League turn rogue. They have the kryptonite, the nukes, the money to fund the research for anti-Superman, Batman, etc. weapons. Guess what? They still failed and were powerless. The same goes for Lex Luthor who has access to plenty of green kryptonite and still fails to bring down Superman.

Originally Posted by Gohan78

I didn't have a problem with the Death Feedback until it became an integral part of the story. It's basically the only thing that prevents the protagonists to deal with the akki. So, if the explanation behind the feedback is inconsistent, the whole story crumbles.

I don't know how you can get any clearer than "they have a superpower, we don't have anything to compare." It's like expecting a stripped down France and Italy hurting from World War I to be prepared for Germany's invasion in World War II... or it's like expecting the Jewish to be prepared for what the Nazis did to them in the Halocaust.

"But wars are common! Prejudice, racism, and persecution are not new! Why couldn't they fight back?"

Do you realize that how unrealistic that expectation would be given the context, even if the idea makes sense? I don't think it's fair to expect that every human and their mothers would be Batman with a successful countermeasure for every contingency.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Rosalena

"thrown out some of their humanity." You're imposing your own sense of what it means to be human on a group of people who live in a fictional world much different than our own.

Actually no I am not. Just because I said they throw away some of their humanity to survive does NOT mean I am judging their society. In fact I have said many times on these boards that one of my favorite things about the series is it it does not present anything as black & white.

Heck even Saki said she cannot forgive them for what happened to Maria & Mamoru but she still now understands.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Actually no I am not. Just because I said they throw away some of their humanity to survive does NOT mean I am judging their society. In fact I have said many times on these boards that one of my favorite things about the series is it it does not prevent anything as black & white.

Typo... or Freudian slip?

Personally, I think there's some things in this show that are pretty black...

You yourself seem to agree given how you've characterized Yakomaru.


Light teasing aside, you're one of the last people who should be faulted for being critical of the human society of SSY. If anything, you've been one of the more forgiving and understanding towards them. Some other viewers have wished nothing short of complete annihilation upon them.

[Kitsu Breaker]

Hey guys, isn´t a simple human can defeat the fiend?
I mean, a simple human who can shot with a gun without the sindrome of feeback, like a example

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

No the difference is the cat is doing the killing not you. Obviously that shows someone else or something else can do the killing for you. Just because you do not like the rule set up doesn't mean it does not make sense. It's not like they are standing there watching the cat as it kills its victim (if they were then obviously the mistake with Mamoru would not have happened).

Shooting someone with a gun is no different than killing them with a knife. I really don't see how you think that one would work.

And lets say death feedback would not be enacted if they set off a bomb how the hell could they even plan that with a fiend. Is the fiend just going to stay still to be blown up. Would no one else not get hurt in this type of blast (what happens if they accidentally kill other humans). And furthermore this is a society that has lost all notion of technology. Unless you are saying they can create a bomb with their PK but then oh wait that would be killing humans directly again.

So yeah I think your examples of bombs and guns are entirely different from the cats.

We'll have to agree to disagree then. Ordering a cat to kill someone seems no different to me than pressing a button to explode a bomb. Both are indirect methods, and in both cases you should know that the person will end up hurt. Also, have they lost technology? They seem to have some, and they are clearly more advanced than our own world by leagues and bounds in genetic engineering. It's pretty ambiguous.

Originally Posted by Kitsu Breaker

Hey guys, isn´t a simple human can defeat the fiend?
I mean, a simple human who can shot with a gun without the sindrome of feeback, like a example

Do regular humans exist? Last we heard, they were slaves to psi-wielders during the 'dark ages.' We haven't seen any since then. I was wondering if perhaps regular humans had been mutated into the rats earlier in the series, but then they mentioned breeding naked mole rats in one episode, so I dunno.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

Also, have they lost technology?

Do you see any advanced technology in their world. They rely and depend so much on PK that they have went backwards in terms of technological advancement.

So yeah I am not really sure where you think they can come up with this elaborate bomb plan.

I mean obviously their PK is pretty resourceful, but not in creating weapons like bombs for obvious reasons.

They seem to have some, and they are clearly more advanced than our own world by leagues and bounds in genetic engineering. It's pretty ambiguous.

The "genetic engineering" happened years prior by the scientist group. When the kids found the false minoshiro it was telling them human history.

Do you even see the scientist group around? We don't know what happened to them.

[ChainLegacy]

I really don't know. It's super ambiguous. They show scientists experimenting with naked mole rats, and they have the technology to play that music every day. Bombs are a much more primitive form of technology than audio recording. I'm confused why you're so confident they don't have the tech. How are you privy to this knowledge? They haven't elaborated on this subject at all.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

I really don't know. It's super ambiguous. They show scientists experimenting with naked mole rats, and they have the technology to play that music every day. Bombs are a much more primitive form of technology than audio recording. I'm confused why you're so confident they don't have the tech. How are you privy to this knowledge? They haven't elaborated on this subject at all.

Bombs are weapons to kill. Why on Earth do you think a society that is built on not harming others would have advanced weapons (the type where you can just press a button and it will explode) like this? It makes absolutely no sense.

And I don't think what we saw with the naked mole rats= advanced technological science.

Just compare the human society with the monster rat society, absent of PK who is now the more advanced society? I don't see anything ambiguous here. I am confused why you think their society is technologically advanced. Heck if Satoru couldn't have made it any more clear "even we don't have concrete buildings?"

Also a phonograph was introduced in 1877. That doesn't really seem all that "advanced" to me.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kitsu Breaker

Hey guys, isn´t a simple human can defeat the fiend?
I mean, a simple human who can shot with a gun without the sindrome of feeback, like a example

Like ChainLegacy said, regular old humans don't seem to exist in this world.

But I have to admit that it is funny to think about how quickly and easily about 10 current Navy SEALs, if fully armed and ready for battle, could end this war.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Bombs are weapons to kill. Why on Earth do you think a society that is built on not harming others would have advanced weapons (the type where you can just press a button and it will explode) like this? It makes absolutely no sense.

And I don't think what we saw with the naked mole rats= advanced technological science.

Just compare the human society with the monster rat society, absent of PK who is now the more advanced society? I don't see anything ambiguous here. I am confused why you think their society is technologically advanced. Heck if Satoru couldn't have made it any more clear "even we don't have concrete buildings?"

Also a phonograph was introduced in 1877. That doesn't really seem all that "advanced" to me.

Bombs have uses beyond just killing (TNT). Besides, the whole point of this discussion is a way to get around the death feedback to put down an akki insurrection, so, that'd be the reason they had the bomb in the first place, hypothetically speaking... If they don't have the tech, couldn't they consult with the false minoshiro, anyways? Those things seem to be libraries of human information, and supposedly the source of the rats' knowledge.

I don't think their society is technologically advanced by our modern standards, but I continue to contend that it's ambiguous as to what tech they have access to. It seems like a Final Fantasy X type world with some advanced tech and some primitive aspects. And yes I do remember Satoru making that comment and rolling my eyes at it. The ancient Greeks had concrete, it's not really all that advanced in the first place.

Actually the phonograph is a more advanced form of technology than a bomb. Bombs themselves are much more ancient. Remote detonation is about as old as the phonograph. Powerful audio projection that they have to play music that can be heard at a distance is presumably more advanced than a simple phonograph, anyways, though I admit to not knowing when that form of technology came into fruition historically. Regardless, you can substitute bomb for poison gas or whatever else is convenient. My original gripe was that there is no contingency plan in place.

Anyways, this is my last word on the subject, as we're going around in circles, and I don't feel like having a hostile discussion about a TV show (maybe I misinterpret your tone, but I feel like this is getting a bit too heated for me).

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Like ChainLegacy said, regular old humans don't seem to exist in this world.

But I have to admit that it is funny to think about how quickly and easily about 10 current Navy SEALs, if fully armed and ready for battle, could end this war.

Not in this corner of society, but I'm not sure I recall any explanation about what the village does with kids who have no power whatsoever. I thought Saki's sister had some, but was just very weak? I'd have to rewatch since I'm not sure.

But like the villagers, the world outside of the barrier is largely a mystery to us. Wouldn't it be odd to find that some parts of the world dealt with the "problem" of PK completely differently, and are actually flourishing?

To be honest, I wouldn't take the false minoshiro's history as absolute. Our own historical records are incomplete, filled with gaps, pieces, and distortions. I put little faith in a system that has been neglected to time to be able to give a perfect recount of days gone by. It'd be like asking an old man to tell a story from his childhood. It's never going to be accurate and could even be completely made up. Memory is funny like that.

I say the village built their society with the best information they had to work with. It's possible the scientists actually did find cures or solutions to the syndromes, for example, but that it wasn't recorded or the information was lost for some reason. The village wouldn't know that, just like we don't know what happened during certain points in our history.

[ChainLegacy]

Regarding the world outside the barrier, I'm still curious about the population of the rats. What was up with the 'invasive' rats from earlier in the series? I hope this gets explained in the remaining episodes.

[Hitenma]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

Bombs have uses beyond just killing (TNT).

Well, they can do everything TNT can do with their Cantus

[Gohan78]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

The problem is I fail to see how any of your solutions are "simple". Poison Gas, bombs going off, firearms, traps, bakenezumi guards.

They didn't lose all the technology. They still have electricity. They can even do a DNA test, for good's sake! Even the bakenezumi were able to make guns, are you telling me that the humans can't?

I can think of major issues with all your solutions, on many of them the death feedback would STILL be in effect.

I fail to see how injecting Boy K with poison is any different from putting a gun to his head and pulling the trigger. The syringe is like a gun in this case. The doctor knew that he was killing the guy.

Aren't you overestimating the effects of the death feedback? I rewatched the explanation of the False Minoshiro from episode 4. It's not like they die instantly as soon as they think of harming another human being. Firstly they just suffer from pain and nausea.
Shooting a gun or detonating a bomb is an instantaneous action. Maybe they will feel terrible afterwards, but they should be able to do it.

Not to mention if you have to set these things up in case an Akki just happens to appear they would have to be set up at all times and they could potentially harm your citizens.

These things should be set up at all times, like the countermeasures against natural disasters. It's not that every day we have an earthquake or a tsunami or a flood but we have contingency plans for when they happen. It doesn't need to be public knowledge but the higher ups of the village should know what to do.

And I don't think you want to use Bakenezumi guards in this situation, you don't want the monster rats to know you are vulnerable like that and this akki is being sent from the monster rats (and the monster rats most loyal to the humans were already killed)

My idea is to keep an elite guard of loyal bakenezumi (from Kiroumaro's tribe for instance) near the village at all times, kinda like a police force. I don't know about you, but I trust an intelligent being with opposable thumbs more than a weird cat.

So while yes there are holes in their plan, guess what there are tons of holes in your plan too. Just because a plan might have missed something is not a plot hole it's meant to show the characters as flawed.

Of course there are holes in my plans but at least I have plans. And I thought all of this up in 10 minutes while they had 200 years!
What strikes me as wrong is that when Tomiko was informed of the presence of an akki, she didn't say "Ok, time to implement plan B". No, she basically said "We are doomed, tell everyone to run"!

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

Anyways, this is my last word on the subject, as we're going around in circles, and I don't feel like having a hostile discussion about a TV show (maybe I misinterpret your tone, but I feel like this is getting a bit too heated for me).

Yikes I am not really sure what you took from my tone but I just saw it as a debate. I wasn't angry or anything

I am not saying the society has NO technology just that they aren't technology advanced. As for bombs, yes I realize there were bombs for a long time but th type you are talking about to be able to kill without being anywhere close and there are still logistic problems of blowing up the fiend and not someone else by mistake.

And there is also this same problem with things like poisonous gas and land mines, etc. And that is not even considering that death feedback may still be activated.

[Raghar]

Originally Posted by Gohan78

My idea is to keep an elite guard of loyal bakenezumi (from Kiroumaro's tribe for instance) near the village at all times, kinda like a police force. I don't know about you, but I trust an intelligent being with opposable thumbs more than a weird cat.

In case you didn't notice military from Kiroumaru tribe was slaughtered and Kiroumaru went missing.