Medaka Box [Manga]

[orangejuicetang]

Originally Posted by DawnEmperor

@orangejuicetang What do you mean exactly(in regards to the protagonists of the other series)?

Well, in Zaregoto, the protaganist is a self-admitted 'damaged goods', 'defective product', 'loser', 'babbler of nonsense', etc. Hard to describe, but like, super cynical, anti-social, that type of person? Similar with Araragi from Monogatari, who's sort of a weird anti-social person with no friends prior to the events of the novel.

In other words, they're both sort of 'losers'. And Kumagawa is like the embodiment of all that, in a way?

Originally Posted by Wolfenstein

Well, he is getting his own novel isn't he? That's gotta count for something.

Tell me more

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

About how to live and relate to others even despite such total variations in talent/success/seemingly 'destined' happiness.

We kind of already dealt with quite a lot of that. I personally think that Zenkichi and Medaka have been brought as far as they can as characters, believably.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Regardless, the narrative design is clearly intentional.

With how haphazardly everything has been thrown together, especially recently? Nope.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

*everything else*

No. You are trying to rationalize stupidity and inconsistency.
Remember this?

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

This is only a tiny fraction of her overall power. The idea that some random big demon guy living in a village could pose a threat to something like this is completely ludicrous. You can't possibly ask me to take it anywhere near seriously.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Basically, it's very likely that this rampaging Iihiko guy who has been implied to be somewhere on the same level as the Not Equals

That was a translation error, it was referring to Hanten.

[Sol Falling]

Here's a link to another work containing one of Nishio's broken/anti-social/'failure' protagonists. Chapter one of Shin Honkaku Mahou Shoujo Risuka, translated for an edition of the Faust compilation magazine (it's been around for a while now, and extremely unlikely that we'll ever get any more translation of this series, at least from this source, so don't expect more). I found it pretty classically Nishio, my only disappointment being with the style of the illustrations and the fact that the MC was a guy, squashing the potential for any yuri I was initially hoping for. (Mahou shoujo? Shit, that should always == yuri, imho (lol).)

http://www.mediafire.com/?zg63zxik1b6bmbz

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

No. You are trying to rationalize stupidity and inconsistency.
Remember this?

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

This is only a tiny fraction of her overall power. The idea that some random big demon guy living in a village could pose a threat to something like this is completely ludicrous. You can't possibly ask me to take it anywhere near seriously.

lol. I don't really care if you don't take my word for it, as we can simply wait for the inevitable explanation Nishio will provide (probably next week). The only key point really is to understand that at this point Nishio is basically establishing Medaka Box's cosmology; with the Shiranui's (the "menders") on one side, with established Not Equal status and the Kurokami's (or some other deep darkness threatening the world) on the other. They are (I predict) the core factors defining basically everything about the Medaka Box universe from it's creation, to it's continuation, and everything about Abnormalities and Minuses.

That was a translation error, it was referring to Hanten.

Yes, I wasn't saying Iihiko was a Not Equal. Not Equals are a certain category, associated at least in part with the Shiranuis. What I'm saying is that Iihiko is part of the core secret of the Kurokami's (or perhaps even deeper than that, as the pure originating source of the darkness inside them), which is an opposite force on the same level of the Not Equals (i.e. maybe not masters/protectors/rulers over the universe, but perhaps its actual creators).

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

lol. I don't really care if you don't take my word for it, as we can simply wait for the inevitable explanation Nishio will provide (probably next week).

I don't think it will be explained, but you're missing the point.
Last week, the narration claimed that Ajimu was all-powerful, and we've seen plenty of evidence of that, and yet, here she is, about to have the shit kicked out of her by something that just popped out of nowhere.
That's Dragonball-tier retarded, and I don't care how you spin it.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Not Equals are a certain category, associated at least in part with the Shiranuis. What I'm saying is that Iihiko is part of the core secret of the Kurokami's (or perhaps even deeper than that, as the pure originating source of the darkness inside them), which is an opposite force on the same level of the Not Equals (i.e. maybe not masters/protectors/rulers over the universe, but perhaps its actual creators).

Are you seriously going to claim that this Iihiko is God? Seriously?
If gods are the new opponents then there's basically no point in most of the characters anyone cares about existing anymore, you know? That would be terrible. And furthermore, that would still not be able to faze Ajimu, she has a skill that lets her become God.

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by Wolfenstein

I think there's really no doubt about it anymore. Zenkichi never was the main character, even after and during the Not-Equal arc, when we were lead to believe he was the main-character all along/would be. That kinda cheapens Nishio's supposed deconstruction of Mary Sues by, well, completely.

Here's the thing, only Zen fans believed it. It was a case of wishful thinking more than anything else. I mean c'mon son, you don't see people reading the latest Monogatari novel and going "Oh Kaiki is the main character!!" (Just an example)

Originally Posted by DawnEmperor

So Kumagawa will always "lose", Zenkichi will always be the support, Ajimu will never fail....

There's been plenty of times in the manga and events out of it that Kumagawa didn't lose in a manner that requires " ".

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

On a less joking manner though, it's something I've been thinking about recently, but I've suddenly felt/realized that Kumagawa's char concept is closer to Nios's other 'protagonists' (like from Zaregoto or Bakemonogatari) then Zen. At least in my opinion.

I've always felt that way, and mentioned it several times in this thread. Zen really isn't a "Nisio" MC imo, Kumagawa was always closer to that feel, probably why I prefer him.

[hyl]

Whatever the heck ever happened to Zenkichi's devil style ability? I thought it was meant to nullify any kind of coincidences surrounding him.
Looking back at the jet black wedding and now, lot's of things seems rather too coincidental to me.

[Tyabann]

Zenkichi got the main focus of the latter half of that arc in a way that even Kumagawa never got in his own. I don't think it was unreasonable, at the time, to think that he had become the main character.
Hell, wasn't that even the point of Devil Style, which seems to have been completely abandoned?

[CrazyPerson]

You know, I'm pretty sure Nisio just going to have Ajimu "stall" for 15 seconds and then let him pass. Almost want to put money down on this.

It's going to be something like, "I wanted to see how you guys dealt with pressure without me helping." And thus her overpoweredness is preserved while she doesn't straight up win.

A Nisio lampshade on the powerful characters getting weaker over time trope.

Looks like this is going to upset a few people. I can already spot one in the thread.

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Zenkichi got the main focus of the latter half of that arc in a way that even Kumagawa never got in his own.

That's the difference between being a protagonist and an antagonist of an arc.... besides Nisio is choosing to write a novel from Kumagawa perspective, good enough for me since his LN work is much superior to what he does in manga. He aint called the God Of Light Novels for no reason...

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by CrazyPerson

You know, I'm pretty sure Nisio just going to have Ajimu "stall" for 15 seconds and then let him pass. Almost want to put money down on this.

I would really love for this to happen, but her expression...

Originally Posted by CrazyPerson

Looks like this is going to upset a few people. I can already spot one in the thread.

I'm upset because I consider it idiotic, but really, it's just yet another straw on the camel's already overloaded back at this point.

[Ermes Marana]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I don't think it will be explained, but you're missing the point.
Last week, the narration claimed that Ajimu was all-powerful, and we've seen plenty of evidence of that, and yet, here she is, about to have the shit kicked out of her by something that just popped out of nowhere.

It also said she was fair to the plot twists. So she could probably obliterate him, but it would mess up the story, and she chooses not to.

[orangejuicetang]

Actually, if you think about it, the Shiranui village already showed they could essentially create a clone of Ajimu which is literally exactly equal to her in power and skills in her doppelganger.

It's also the origin of Hanten, Mr. Skill Maker. Maybe that's somehow related?

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Ermes Marana

It also said she was fair to the plot twists. So she could probably obliterate him, but it would mess up the story, and she chooses not to.

I can't be the only person who considers that to be equally as stupid as it being a credible threat to her, right?

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

Actually, if you think about it, the Shiranui village already showed they could essentially create a clone of Ajimu which is literally exactly equal to her in power and skills in her doppelganger.

But that was just an illusion.

[orangejuicetang]

Even if it was just an illusion, it seemed like Ajimu wouldn't have been able to beat her own 'doppelganger' on her own.

Another random thought that just popped into my head. I wonder if there is any chance that Ajimu actually already knows this IIhiko person, or like maybe met him in the past. Just a random thought going by her surprised expression when he first appears smashing through the wall, since that might make more sense than her being surprised at a person throwing around Shiranui and Obi?

I dunno, just random thought.

We know Nisio like's word games with his names, does this guy's name mean anything or have any sort of pun?

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I can't be the only person who considers that to be equally as stupid as it being a credible threat to her, right?

But that was just an illusion.

Ajimu's entire character development is about "involvement". Despite being a transcendental being, all-powerful, all-knowing, capable of doing any impossible task within the Medaka Box universe, she chooses not to "cheat" using those ridiculous abilities and instead experience life/the universe while being an actual part of it. Rather than looking ahead to plot twists, rather than uncaringly discarding the feelings of people around her as fiction/ink on paper, she chooses to restrain herself and participate in them as a witness. Because, as Medaka told her, "Life is epic".

However, the narration explicitly stated that this might've been a mistake/weakness for Ajimu this time, and you can consider the explanation for this being that the present obstacle is on a similar level to the Not Equals (despite not being a Not Equal. Think of it in a duological nature: i.e. the Shiranuis and the Kurokami's--opposing, but different). This Iihiko guy is probably the primary concern who Shiranui Hanten exists to contain/protect the world from/deal with.

The point is, even if you consider Ajimu All-Powerful, it's not like she's using (or capable of using) all of her power at the same time. In particular, it's not like Ajimu has completely developed all of her power as of this time. Ajimu's power is basically to "overcome impossibilities", and the finite number of skills she collected might be on some level simply remnants of that. If Ajimu encounters something "impossible" right now, it's guaranteed that she will eventually be able to do it, but not necessarily at this very moment. The truth is, Ajimu should probably be expected to grow in skills/powers as she encounters new impossibilities; it's just that Ajimu has lived/searched for impossibilities for so long now that she already has overwhelming control over any sort of situation encountered by normal humans.

Remember that Ajimu's weakness (like the rest of the All Jokers, apparently) was that actually she lets her opponents get in the first shot. She purposely allows/makes herself vulnerable, she purposely doesn't prepare herself. In that case, if she suddenly encounters another person on the level of a Not Equal, it's quite obvious she might not be prepared to protect other people. This doesn't mean that Ajimu doesn't have her 'all-powerful' nature in the sense of being able to do whatever she wants, at her leisure, if she needs to; but that she is capable of being caught off guard, and is not always in full-control of the situation (by conscious choice).

[Ermes Marana]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I can't be the only person who considers that to be equally as stupid as it being a credible threat to her, right?

That's what happens when you make an all powerful character. Your choices are

1. Give them a reason not to use their full power (boredom, suicidal, want the fight to be more fun, don't want to take away the victory/experience from someone else, don't want to cheat the story, etc)

2. Make other characters with similar power levels (hey, if there can be one, why not two)

[Tyabann]

Essentially, for this manga to continue, Ajimu needs to be removed somehow.

[summers]

Nice way to hype the new guy. I can see that though, Kumagawa can beat her because of the Nature of his powers, I get that. But what could this guy do to make her sweat like that?

Next chapter is going to be a good one, for us action lovers.

[RedKey]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Essentially, for this manga to continue, Ajimu needs to be removed somehow.

Why 'removed'? She's been around for a long time and the manga didn't end - and she even said she has the power to do so. Creating a new character that could be on par with her powers is one way to keep her in check, making her fake her vulnerability could be another.

Ajimu simply enjoys theatergoing. As an all-powerful and all-knowing being, she could simply put an end to everything, but she won't do so because the story wouldn't be interesting if she did that. At least, that's how I see it. She's now part of the "protagonists party", she wants to enjoy the adventure with them, not meta-hacking everything to easily win and be bored to death for all eternity again.

[j0x]

lol Anshin'in is on the edge of being defeated by this Iihiko being? WTF but ok thinking more logically Anshin'in has billions of skills but she got no infinite skills so their is still a possibility of her being defeated