(L) Devil Survivor 2 - Anime-Only Discussion (no game comparisons or spoilers)

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by com_gwp

Though to be fair, the survival motif is played down a fair lot compared to the first game's story.

I won't completely disagree, but I look at it a little differently and see the "survival" motif in a different way.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Dengar

I... can't really agree with that. It's more about the psychological and political consequences of a crisis situation. The demons are just a flavor thing.

Originally Posted by Kimidori

agree with you here, non of the SMT game is just about summoning demon. especially this game, the game Arc word is "Let's Survive", not "Let's kill demon", it about a group of people struggle to survive, not summoning and killing demon.

The demons and demon summoning and fighting against demons are the most important part of the show. Survival is about ekeing out existence by making do with what you have at hand. Limited resources, limited information and a lack of power are key elements of this kind of story, and there should be a pervasive sense of melancholy and dread because of this.

Devil Survivor 2 shows none of this because demons form the greatest danger and they can be wiped out in seemingly endless numbers by a super white tiger. Oh, and the protagonists have decided to join up with the government so they can have grand adventures. They have resources, security, and power - the very opposite of a survival story.

If this show was based on the first game where the main cast have to rely on their own wits, then the story would be more about surviving, but that's not the case here.

Originally Posted by Angelic Cross

Mako-Mako's a pretty compassionate girl, so her desire to help out the average citizen often conflicts with her loyalty and duty to JP's. She hasn't really hashed out her feelings of wanting to save people versus doing what needs to be done.

Sure I get that, but things should/will get a lot worse, so Makoto will get a lot more opportunity to have a split sense of duty. If she's already banging her head against a door at this juncture while things are rosiest, what the heck is she going to be banging later?
...Wait, maybe that came out wrong.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

If this show was based on the first game where the main cast have to rely on their own wits, then the story would be more about surviving, but that's not the case here.

You admitted yourself that you played the entire first game, whereas you didn't play the entire second game. That's not really sufficient comparing material IMHO.


I'm going to admit I'm having a bit of a hard time here when people are so adamant about how their assumptions can't possibly be wrong when it's pretty much impossible for me to even attempt to provide an argument to the contrary for obvious reasons.


Although I'll accept that this might be some indication of the impression that people get from just the beginning two episodes.


Should I just stay away from the discussion entirely until the whole thing's over? That sounds kinda boring.

[Shadow5YA]

*sigh*

I'll just throw my final two cents out there before this turns into another source material circlejerk. Most likely any arguments or complaints I will make in the future will be centered around these two points anyway.

1)Don't assume you know the game's plot with just knowledge from the first game or from this anime. There are enough differences even early at this point that the only way you'll know the story accurately enough is to play the game itself.

2)An adaptation that captures only the skeleton of the source material's narrative is not necessarily a good adaptation, even if the animation itself is high quality.

For example, take the Fate/Stay Night adaptations, which are generally regarded as poor adaptations of Type-Moon's works. Both the TV series and the Unlimited Blade Works movie followed the basic narrative closely enough - they fight the same people, and the ending is ultimately the same as the visual novel, so it's nothing near as poor as other anime adaptations like Yumekui Merry, Tsukihime, or Chaos;Head where it diverges from the source material completely to present a poorly written filler plot. So then why were the Fate/Stay Night anime poorly received?

Believe it or not, the minor details do matter. Changes in character dynamics can cause anime-only viewers to judge characters completely differently from how they normally are in the source material. Changes to major events like fights can change a viewer's judgement of a character from strong or clever to being a weakling who only wins through plot convenience or just a character who is useless in general.
There is a very real possibility that small differences in individual episodes can accumulate into a largely different experience by the time one cour passes.

[Netto Azure]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Believe it or not, the minor details do matter. Changes in character dynamics can cause anime-only viewers to judge characters completely differently from how they normally are in the source material. Changes to major events like fights can change a viewer's judgement of a character from strong or clever to being a weakling who only wins through plot convenience or just a character who is useless in general.
There is a very real possibility that small differences in individual episodes can accumulate into a largely different experience by the time one cour passes.

Wow. One could just copy and paste this with any adaptation created. Sadly enough people demand either that the series cater to every minute detail or be able to stand on its own without any need for the source. Its finding the middle ground that can appeal to as many people as possible that is necessary in today's market. Still maybe that's why there's a loud vocal minority always criticizing...always lamenting the perceived pandering.

Still I am enjoying this adaptation. They kept the various details like the game transitions.

[com_gwp]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

2)An adaptation that captures only the skeleton of the source material's narrative is not necessarily a good adaptation, even if the animation itself is high quality.

Of course, you're completely correct here. But, really, this depends on the objective quality of the source material. Was DeSu2 a good story? Sure, but was it a great one? Definitely not. There is a ton of room for improvements here, both in the core narrative and characterizations, even if that means capturing only the skeleton of the source material's narrative.

Perhaps this is where our expectations differ; You seem to want a faithful adaptation in a well-directed anime that you would call good, but I want to see a work that can potentially improve on the bloated original story, even if it means bringing about some major changes in adapting from the source material.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

For example, take the Fate/Stay Night adaptations, which are generally regarded as poor adaptations of Type-Moon's works.

I would argue that these two examples you brought up had far greater problems than a simple faithfulness of adaptation, but well, that's not really a topic for this thread.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Believe it or not, the minor details do matter. Changes in character dynamics can cause anime-only viewers to judge characters completely differently from how they normally are in the source material. Changes to major events like fights can change a viewer's judgement of a character from strong or clever to being a weakling who only wins through plot convenience or just a character who is useless in general.
There is a very real possibility that small differences in individual episodes can accumulate into a largely different experience by the time one cour passes.

You're only looking at the negative side of the argument and I'm sure you know that change can be positive as well.

My case in point: Giving Hibiki a proper, distinct personality to play off the other characters instead of him being the passive avatar he was in the game. I cannot take anyone who wanted him to be autistic bunny-chan or Yu Narukami seriously, because that very characterization risk the severity of the story. I still personally feel Kishi's decision with this was the best one we could've gotten, even if a little generic.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by com_gwp

Of course, you're completely correct here. But, really, this depends on the objective quality of the source material. Was DeSu2 a good story? Sure, but was it a great one? Definitely not. There is a ton of room for improvements here, both in the core narrative and characterizations, even if that means capturing only the skeleton of the source material's narrative.

Can you really call the anime an overall improvement if its narrative becomes worse in some areas to improve the weaker areas in the source material?

I mean, I agree that the game or its narrative isn't that spectacular as far as Shin Megami Tensei games go, but I wouldn't call one step forward, one step back an improvement either.

Originally Posted by com_gwp

Perhaps this is where our expectations differ; You seem to want a faithful adaptation in a well-directed anime that you would call good, but I want to see a work that can potentially improve on the bloated original story, even if it means bringing about some major changes in adapting from the source material.

Your expectations may be even loftier than mine if you expect an improvement over the source material

Adaptations that end up better than the source material are even more rare than faithful ones that remain the same quality.


I do agree improvements can be made to the game, like better characterizations overall to Ronaldo, Jungo, and Keita as well as tying certain character developments to the main plot better (won't say how or why since this is the anime thread), but if the anime creates problems in areas where the game was already good, can't we just get a faithful adaptation instead?

Originally Posted by com_gwp

You're only looking at the negative side of the argument and I'm sure you know that change can be positive as well.

My case in point: Giving Hibiki a proper, distinct personality to play off the other characters instead of him being the passive avatar he was in the game. I cannot take anyone who wanted him to be autistic bunny-chan or Yu Narukami seriously, because that very characterization risk the severity of the story. I still personally feel Kishi's decision with this was the best one we could've gotten, even if a little generic.

I do agree the anime made a few improvements, but I'm not sure I would call Hibiki's current characterization one of them. Kamiya's presentation seems... questionable so far, especially compared to the other seiyuu voicing Daichi and Makoto. If anything, Hibiki may be the most generic character so far in the anime.

As mentioned before, an improvement would have been if Kishi designed Hibiki to have only slightly more powerful demons than Daichi or Io at the beginning, and had him use his wits to coordinate team attacks with Daichi and Io participating. In the church scene, Hibiki could have directed one of them to find the haywire phone while the rest work with him to get rid of the Itsumade and protect the citizens.


What I do think is an improvement is how Daichi was presented before the train crash, because the anime actually shows how he has been buddies with Hibiki. I also think Io rescuing Daichi before the truck crash was better than what happened in the game. However, with all the other changes I mentioned before, I can't say the anime's narrative is overall better than the game so far.

[com_gwp]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

However, with all the other changes I mentioned before, I can't say the anime's narrative is overall better than the game so far.

Then let's agree to disagree, and put the final word on that.

Because personally I'm liking the fact that show is striking out on its own the way it is, and for better or for worse, I'm really anticipating to see how the changes will play out over the course of the show.

[Von Himmel]

Whoa..didn't expect that the story would go that way

Spoiler:

..did they really just killed Keita?

[Kirihara_R]

wow game over already? .. i guess it really turned out this way ...

[duckroll]

Definitely very surprised by the turn of events in ep3. I felt this was the best episode yet, since it didn't drag and they handled the major battle here pretty well. As a fan of the game, the direction the anime is going suddenly has me much more interested now.

Spoiler:

So now they can't go for the "perfect" ending, which means the ending they're going for in the anime is totally up in the air now. I am wet with anticipation!

Still no Airi though, and no Airi next week either. I think next week should be pretty exciting, but... Airi.... where.... are.... you...

T_T

[Gundamx]

Originally Posted by dxd22

wow game over already? .. i guess it really turned out this way ...

It's not game over >>> he just failed to save him..
you can save him or let him die in game (failed to save him)

It look like they don't plan to save all character to have more time slot for others

[viperdk1]

Nice little touch in the ED - should be easy to spot.

Having not played the game this episode really intrigued me.

Spoiler for ep 3:

Just what is that creature Keita and Hibiki faced?
How did it manage to 'brainwash' Prof. Kanno?
Just how BIG is that Septentrion that arrived in Osaka? O_O
Who is that dude with the red and black 'jumper'? Is he connected with the 'creature'?

Will admit, I'm not keen on the fact that it's introduced a character then murdered him in the same episode, especially when his billing is equal with the other characters - but I suppose it could have a nice impact upon character development for the remainder of the cast who witnessed his death.

Bring on next week.

[Dengar]

Oh wow

Spoiler for out of respect for those who haven't seen it yet:

Oh my, oh my! I don't think this is something any of us could have expected! Yes, even those of us who played the game did not think they'd have the guts to kill off Keita. All bets are off now. Anything can happen. None of us know what's going to happen now.

[HandofFate]

heh, oh episode 3.

Spoiler for episode 3:

Keita died on my first playthrough of the game too, since I had no idea what your suppose to do to save people. I just kept on trying to raise my social links with my other party members.

[broken270]

I did not expect that to happen at all.

Spoiler:

Keita! Why did you die? I've kept you alive no matter how many times I've played through, yet you decide to die here. To put salt in my wounds, he disappeared in the ED. I trusted you. If they are willing to kill off Keita, that means anyone pretty much has a death flag on their heads whenever their death clip is up. This just got interesting.

[hilly]

Haha,you guys definitely are not following the manga version of devil survivor 2~
The plot of manga version are THE SAME as animation,which tells...
Well,see for yourself if you want to spoil yourself~

[ChampDream]

for someone that haven't play the game I was suprise that they fail to save Keita.
the demon that they were fighting look way too powerful
this episode was really good and it look like the next will be better

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by hilly

Haha,you guys definitely are not following the manga version of devil survivor 2~
The plot of manga version are THE SAME as animation,which tells...
Well,see for yourself if you want to spoil yourself~

Oh I guess I forgot about that.

So... I'd recommend -against- reading the manga. Because it will spoil everything.

[kuromitsu]

Rather than Keita's death, I'm actually more interested in the fact that the Osaka team has pretty much lost right at the start of the story. System ruined, barriers down, summoners dead except for one (and the three from Tokyo), the enemy is invading... Nice, nice.