2013-09-19, 07:38 | Link #41 | |
Me at work
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This isn't limited to anime, go to the imdb forums dedicated to movies/tv shows of popular franchises such as harry potter,lord of the rings,game of thrones, batman etc and you won't have movie aficionados there but fans of those franchises first and foremost. I think that the only reason it wasn't there beforehand in anime is that the original medias were not available in english.
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2013-09-19, 11:11 | Link #42 | |
On a mission
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Of course, this no doubt to me reminds of behavior in MMOs or other video games where people will play the fuck out of video games, rush to the end, and claim everyone else that is playing the same game is "doing it wrong" and now "there's nothing to do" as defined by their own criteria. It's that kind of elitism that leads to unreasonable expectations of anything new that comes out as well. I mean I like a lot of stuff from Kyoani, Urobuchi, or Okada. If the anime isn't as good as expected, then will I place some elevated expectations that are unfair? Yes, I certainly make a lot of jokes, but it doesn't elevate my opinion far above others. I try to at least not blind myself to certain prospects. That's why I brought up Little Busters, in which I did try to judge it on its own, but dang I had to try hard to ignore some of the most annoying duo fandom elitist groups. As a person who goes often "You have no idea what the fuck you're talking about, sit down and listen", I do understand the validity of using the source material in a discussion. The more you know, the more you are equipped to discuss a matter. But on the other hand, using it as a crutch as a blunt object is overdoing it. But all of it doesn't matter. Back to the topic of spoilers, I think it's valuable to preserve the experience of those who haven't finish yet, if you're truly a fan. My friend is watching Evangelion now and he doesn't care about spoilers, but I don't spoil him, and recommend he doesn't spoil himself. This is Evangelion we're talking about here, I mean it's impossible not to get spoiled about it. Still though, as a fan of the series, I still would want people to get the most out of their viewing experience. It's their choice on whether to get spoilered or not, and as a friend and someone that has it as a favorite series, I don't want to poison the well so they can form their own opinion. After all, isn't that what someone that cares about people and their pet series wants? Appreciation of the material. I place character favoritism above all else though-- I would like other people to share that appreciation and honestly any good fan to me would think the same-- allow others to share in those key moments, and not this sort of fanaticism towards some kind of monument or structure that alienates casuals. Okay, I did spoil one thing slightly-- I spoiled a bit the remake movies and told him they were terrible. But that's also for his own good. tl;dr Fans need to stop being so yandere about their prized objects of fandom.
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2013-09-19, 13:15 | Link #43 | |
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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I'm not against the use of spoiler tags. That's what the feature is there for, after all. If a curious reader clicks on the spoiler tag and spoils something for themselves, that's too bad. We have to take responsibility for ourselves. The issue is when people either outright state a spoiler or drop hints that are so obvious that they might as well have come right out and said it, without using a spoiler tag. That's where moderators come into play - to forcefully remove the spoilers and inform those users that they just committed an act of disrespect to the community. It's anecdotal, but my ideas come from my own experiences. I'm perfectly comfortable viewing the Danganronpa episode discussion threads because I have seen that Klashikari is very active in those threads, and keeps them spoiler-free. Klashikari also sets the tone, discussing the source material alongside the anime material while using spoiler tags appropriately. By comparison, I am very skittish about the Attack on Titan episode discussion threads. I've seen monir active there, but not to the same extent as Klashikari is with Danganronpa. There also seem to be a lot of people with a poor sense of self-control viewing Attack on Titan compared with Danganronpa. Maybe slightly off-topic, but I disagree with Marcus H.'s assessment that the "card catalog" layout of series forums was due to anime-only viewers who are "eager to avoid spoilers." Staff can correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember right it was started in a response to some out-of-hand activity that occurred in the Shuffle! series forum.
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Last edited by Ledgem; 2013-09-19 at 15:17. Reason: Clarity |
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2013-09-19, 14:54 | Link #44 |
Senior Member
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I completely agree with Ledgem (except I'm not sure on the Attack on Titan subforum as I've had that stalled for awhile now).
Klashikari is doing a simply fantastic job with Dangaronpa. Klash's handling of comparisons is also very good - It's all in one massive spoiler space, and people can choose to open it up or not. Having the equivalent of "Klash for Dangaronpa" for each ongoing series subforum would be a dream scenario, likely nipping most spoiler problems in the bud.
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2013-09-19, 15:31 | Link #45 |
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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I think that's where it's up to the membership to step up to the plate and help out by reporting posts. I don't think we can find someone who is both that intimately familiar with the source material and that aligned with the spoiler policy for every franchise that gets a sub-forum, and has the necessary time and dedication to police one section that closely all the time. (I did that with SAO, though not knowing the source as much, and it was absolutely exhausting.) But, even if all the people expressing concern in this thread would do their part and report posts that cross the line, collectively the problem could be at least greatly reduced and people would start getting the message.
The issue is basically this: a) people who know the source material often don't care about spoilers or would welcome it, so aren't inclined to report anything except the most blatant/obvious of examples ("unforgivable spoilers") b) people who don't know the source material often can't tell what is really a hint/spoiler unless it's blatantly obvious or another source reader points it out, so they too won't do anything but report the most blatant/obvious examples Neither of these deal with the sorts of problems that were being discussed in this thread, where subtle source hints are influencing speculation, or things from other anime adaptations are being used as comparison points, even though it technically hasn't happen in the given show yet. These are very subtle issues that require a pretty big level of empathy to figure out what you wouldn't want to know if you were a first-time viewer, and to care enough to enforce this strictly even when other source readers want to bite off your head for not letting them say what they want wherever they think they should be allowed to say it. Basically you'd need source readers who *also* share a commitment to preserving the first-viewing experience for the anime-only audience... and they're few and far between. But seeing them report posts is one of the way we find them.
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2013-09-19, 15:56 | Link #46 | |
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
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I believe the phrase is "be the change you wish to see". I'm okay with people choosing not to participate, that's their choice. But if people feel strongly about changing "the culture", they have to step up. Be a role model and set an example. Help us do our job better by reporting problems. Try to guide discussion by shifting it away from possible spoilers. That kind of thing.
I say this, but I caution against the temptation to "be a mod". That doesn't help much - you'll get backlash from the community and it makes our job harder. At least for now, it's a step, if people are willing to do it. Quote:
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2013-09-20, 23:32 | Link #47 |
For the yuri (╹◡╹)
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: I do not remember
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It looks like the problem has shifted to the community not doing anything so I'll comment on that. I have never used the report function before so if I say something wrong, I apologise.
The first line of thought I have is how much would it take to 'convince' the moderator that it is a spoiler and should be censored. For example, character X jumps off a building at the end of episode 10. Member A speculates why character X did that. Member B spoils it by revealing what happens in the next manga chapter. Member C sees this and wants to report it. Would he have to take screenshots to show that episode 10's ending did not show that and bring out the airing schedule to prove that episode 10 is the latest one adapted so member B's statement is a spoiler? Secondly, how is the editing handled and what are the possible repercussions? Usually I see reasons like, 'Spoilers' or something along those lines when edited by a moderator. Following the example above, member C may see that he succeeded but no credit was given to him/her. If there are few people who would put in so much time and effort to decide what's a spoiler and provide evidence, there will be even fewer who would want to be silent heros (even more so when they only see the moderator's name, making it look it all credit was taken by the moderator). However, placing the reporter's name has several consequences as well. Going by what relentlessflame said, the members who spoil will rage at being censored. If it were me, I wouldn't bother about them since they broke the rules in the first place (even if it were unintentional, they should feel apologetic not angery) but I cannot and will not speak for all.
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2013-09-20, 23:56 | Link #48 | ||
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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If it turns out that we make a mistake, and the "accused" provides the necessary evidence, any infractions/bans can be reversed. Of course we don't act blindly either. (Sometimes people report things that are actually allowed, so we don't action every report.) Quote:
I wasn't trying to shift the problem entirely on the community, but I think that's the easiest thing people can do to help. I don't see an easy solution on the policy level, and I don't think it's realistic to expect a source-reading mod for every thread/subforum to keep constant watch like a hawk. So leveraging the "wisdom of the crowd" seems like the best way.
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2013-09-21, 01:25 | Link #49 | ||||||
For the yuri (╹◡╹)
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: I do not remember
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2013-09-21, 13:56 | Link #50 | |
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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After you click the "report post" button, you're taken to a website with a text box. You are asked to write what the problem with the post is. Some examples, like "spam," are given. You can write what ever you want, but with regard to spoilers, you can write that it's a spoiler. If you're not sure, you can state that, too ("I think this might be a spoiler" or some such thing). The moderators are then notified of the report. They can see the post, your reason for reporting it, and that you are the reporter. That information is only available to the moderators. It is up to the moderators what should be done with the post, if anything. Whether they act on it or not, nobody aside from the moderators would know that you reported the post. In other words, it's a completely anonymous act. If we were to start awarding recognition then we would get into situations where people grew upset with each other, or where people would become afraid of reporting posts for fear of possible backlash. We don't want that. Getting members into reporting problems isn't an unusual thing. We do it offline, too; haven't you ever heard one of those "if you see something, say something" campaigns that police forces put out? Emergency responders can't be everywhere at once, nor can they predict disasters. They exist for the good of the community, and it is up to the community to help focus them. The same applies here.
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2013-09-21, 19:55 | Link #51 | |
For the yuri (╹◡╹)
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: I do not remember
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Thank you for the information.
I know about the backlash, that's why it is optional. Maybe the proposal given made it look stupid; I'll rephrase. If a member specifically types in the report box that he/she wants to be given credit, would the moderators do so? If yes, I would be won over completely. Quote:
I have seen a news report where they show some citizens wearing a vest and patroling but anyone outside would recognise them already. If you press the emergency stop on a train to report a bomb, everyone will look at the cause (you) first since their motion suddenly changes for an unknown reason. Most people that report probably won't care or don't want the attention but this is a community; all kinds of personalities exist. That is why I am asking if an option exists to suit them and by no means am I suggesting that all members are forced to deal with it.
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2013-09-23, 10:59 | Link #53 | |||
For the yuri (╹◡╹)
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: I do not remember
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Is the main issue with this that the behaviour is self-destructive? I can't fathom people starting fights with others for no reason yet I've seen it happen anyway. I'm not denying your experience as a senior but people will do things that make little or no sense. Furthermore, them flaming each other breaches forum rule 1.2 so you can report both of them, removing the spoiler and the self-destructor. Quote:
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2013-09-23, 20:19 | Link #55 | ||
For the yuri (╹◡╹)
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: I do not remember
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The process envisioned in my head as of now is:
1. Member detects a spoiler (which is not allowed). 2. Member reports said spoiler. 3. Moderators take action (removing, warning, banning, etc). Quote:
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Let's say that Klashikari only removed the spoilers since your interpretation is valid as well. Then there must be someone who reported the post in the first place, fulfilling the role of detector. Since the reported posts will only have "Last edited by Klashikari (something something)", people will only know for sure that Klashikari had a part in it. The person who detected and reported it remain unknown. That would largely be fine but I am considering those who would feel negatively about that, thus asking if moderators will credit them if asked directly by the reporter.
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2013-09-24, 01:31 | Link #56 | |
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
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