Total Eclipse - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

So I can see why the thougt of sabotage or the such would cross the minds of those in the Muv-Luv universe since National Pride and resentment is ample.

I don't believe that.

In the face of extinction everything goes out the door and the only thing that matters is survival. That's how it's always been. And even in that case the allies would mainly stay out of each other's way.

They don't even bother giving any explanation as to why they wanted the prototype to fail.

Why would Company A whose assisting Company B in developing a weapon that can decimate the enemy deliberately sabotage it at the cost of it's own forces?Especially when they don't have a large pool of manpower and land to begin with. Not to mention when there's nothing to be gained by sabotaging it in the first place.

[NoemiChan]

I demand that who, that are against the development of newer better weapons to be used against the BETA or works to sabotage it be considered a BETA spy... or just bring them in the front line as bait will yah??

They're in the edge of extinction, and still they fight each other... God!!!

[novalysis]

That's probably the irritating feature of the Muv Luv Universe. And to think the Russians are almost out of land, and the "Kremlin" ... wishes to sabotage an experimental weapon whose use might preserve their toehold on what's left of their land.

The only reason I can think off, is that someone's political pride was at stake, and he was perfectly willing to sacrifice the last bit of land his nation has for it. WTH....

Still, this is the best episode of Muv Luv by far, though to be fair, I think the character development was needed. Whether or not it could be handled better though....

[Ray]

Originally Posted by Silvance

I agree. It was awful in several scenes.

-snip-

The sad part is that we didn't get to see Latrova and her Terminator fight the BETA at all.

Oh, wow; that's quality right there.

Mhm, so she pilots one as well? I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me. But yeah, that's a damn shame indeed.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Yes, humans will plot, conspire, backstab and sabotage if there's something to gain. But the only thing to be gained here is death at the hands of BETA.

How do you know that there's nothing for them to gain by doing so? We don't know their motives.

Right now, all we're seeing is "dohoho I shall send people to their deaths for no good reason." Which is rather daft.

Yes, it's daft. Yes, it's outrageous. And that's the whole point of it; it makes us want to hate them. And who's to say that their reasons for doing so won't be revealed later on?

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

In the face of extinction everything goes out the door and the only thing that matters is survival. That's how it's always been. And even in that case the allies would mainly stay out of each other's way.

That's a fairly idealistic point of view. And I guess it's something that we all want to believe in, but that doesn't mean that it's always what happens.

They don't even bother giving any explanation as to why they wanted the prototype to fail.

.. because it might be brought up in the next few episodes? I mean, why wouldn't it?

Not to mention when there's nothing to be gained by sabotaging it in the first place.

That's what we think, anyway.

[orion]

I thought it was sick that the only expendables on the battlefield were the mecha pilots. Russia didn't want to lose their planes or tanks.

And they were delaying the cannon firing which could have saved more of the tanks.

Cryska did a 180, most be mind control. But she did threaten to break that guy's arm so the 180 did some good.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Aphrah

.. because it might be brought up in the next few episodes? I mean, why wouldn't it?

Doubt it. I thought they had it pointed out there in the flashback.

"There's no need to waste valuable fuel and ammo just to help the UN" was the main reason.

The problem I have with this is that it's on their own turf that's being defended to begin with.

That's what we think, anyway.

So if the Kremlin had its way that would mean.

Destruction of its remaining land forces
Loss of its remaining land
Loss of its aces that are pretty much irreplaceable.

Even for a corrupt official he would only do it if he had something to gain and so far I'm not seeing anything at all. Unless the Russian ace was someone who he wanted eliminated.

That's a fairly idealistic point of view. And I guess it's something that we all want to believe in, but that doesn't mean that it's always what happens.

During WWII even when the Japanese were invading China the communists and nationalists still fought each other but at the same time they both conserved their strength.

For example, in a battle the Nationalists wouldn't sabotage it by sacrificing its "own forces" to screw over the Communists and vice versa.

I can understand it if Company A was withholding support that Company B needed in order to survive but not Company A withholding support for its own forces that are in danger of being wiped out all for the sake of spiting Company B who only has a token force on the field.

[ReaperxKingx]

I don't know why, but for some reason when I watch the Soviet Command Base trying to stall or prevent the new rail gun testing I immediately get a flashback of several articles I read of how some of the higher ups in the U.S. Military tried to stop the M16 when it tried to undergo testing.

[Wild Goose]

Decent enough ep. Was wondering WTF all that red stuff was on the battlefield, and was it some kind of reality warping effect, before I realised it's just vaporised BETA A mist of BETA blood.

All in all, a decent-ish ep, and now we see something that can give the A-10 a run for it's money in terms of the "Fuck You BETA" aspect. Now we just need this cool toy to be mass produced.

Also I can totally understand and believe the political dickery. Our asian political leaders wouldn't think twice about doing this shit.

And Yui is really defrosting towards Yuuya, and she and Yuuya are being less tsundere to each other. I approve. And she's secretly glad in her heart that he survived. Note that small tear at the end.

[Ray]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Doubt it. I thought they had it pointed out there in the flashback.

Eh, perhaps. I guess we'll see.

So if the Kremlin had its way that would mean.

Destruction of its remaining land forces
Loss of its remaining land
Loss of its aces that are pretty much irreplaceable.

Even for a corrupt official he would only do it if he had something to gain and so far I'm not seeing anything at all. Unless the Russian ace was someone who he wanted eliminated.

Yeah, pretty much.

That could very well be the case? I'm just hoping it'll be explained later on.

During WWII even when the Japanese were invading China the communists and nationalists still fought each other but at the same time they both conserved their strength.

For example, in a battle the Nationalists wouldn't sabotage it by sacrificing its "own forces" to screw over the Communists and vice versa.

I can understand it if Company A was withholding support that Company B needed in order to survive but not Company A withholding support for its own forces that are in danger of being wiped out all for the sake of spiting Company B who only has a token force on the field.

Hmm, that's a valid example. However, the point I was making was that even if that happened back then, it doesn't mean it'll continue to happen in future wars. Nothing is a certainty except for death.

[Domonkazu]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Seriously, there is no reason whatsoever for this sabotage to make sense. Pride doesn't make sense either. Aside from it just being stupid, historically humanity has always swallowed it's pride if survival was at stake.

there is always a reason if they sabotaged it, for example they could have been developing something else, and the wanted to delay the experiment until their unit become operational, that's just one example.

I don't believe human will be able to stand together if there if an alien invasion, they will still have their personal agenda.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Boy, it seems to me like Satellite was doing everything they can to delay showing the battle They showed the briefing, cut to Yuuya's angry monologue, show some male bonding, Scarlet Twins scene, pre-battlefield banter, just ANYTHING to avoid going into the battle

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Domonkazu

there is always a reason if they sabotaged it, for example they could have been developing something else, and the wanted to delay the experiment until their unit become operational, that's just one example.

I don't believe human will be able to stand together if there if an alien invasion, they will still have their personal agenda.

The only agenda that would be there would be defending their own land.

Something like Mass Effect where the other races refused to step in to help others was mainly because they wanted to conserve their strength to protect their own homes. That makes sense.

The thing that irks people is that the Soviets are screwing their own forces on their own homeland just to "spite" the UN.

If it was in Japan for example (A different land) then it'd make sense not to give 100% effort to assist but again this is their own turf.

Even if they were developing a new weapon it'd be useless since they would lose their homeland anyways.

[DezoPenguin]

Yeah, truthfully, I'm not at all surprised that people would lie, cheat, backstab, etc., etc. Heck, we already went over at least some of that back in the Ep. 3-4 discussion over U.S. TSF development focus on anti-TSF combat, and a wander over to the game thread will talk about how such internal nonsense continues to go on in the MLA universe.

A quick glance at, say, WWII history will show that while rivals can and do work together against a common threat, they don't always do so very well and they always pursue their own agenda while doing so. The Soviets are no doubt very aware of their weak position and the last thing they want is a Japanese-developed next-generation weapon being produced under the aegis of a U.S.-driven test project and have them on the outside looking in. Losing a few tanks and a flight of Eishi so that the test firing can't occur (and the non-Soviet test flight probably get NOMmed as well) likely falls under the heading of "acceptable sacrifice."

(Remember, this is not about them losing Kamchatka. There were no Laser Class, the left and right wings of the field were still in human control, and bombers were standing by ready to act...just too late for Zhar and Argos Flights to be protected. If it meant that Kamchatka would be sacrificed that would have been stupid beyond belief, but that's not what was at stake.)

(Plus, hey, it's the U.S.S.R., which thus far in the series seems to be completely living up to the "Evil Empire" moniker Reagan hung on it--which is in no way surprising, given the fact that this series overall seems to come from a generally right-wing-Japanese mindset and that political viewpoint was very anti-Communist.)

I'm fascinated by the difference in Cryska this episode; she genuinely didn't seem to remember what had happened the day before (Inia tried to bring it up, but she just talked over her, which implies that Cryska might not even be aware of what happens to her, since if she was she'd be likely to stop and listen to Inia from a simple informational standpoint.). I wonder if it's a split personality or something more complex. More, also, when we see her and Inia with their Slasher Smiles.

Seriously, though, this episode shows why someone needs to give these poor animators some money. Satelight showed it's quite capable of making something SF look nice with Bodacious Space Pirates, thank you, but when they have to cut that many corners (as Chaos2Frozen) observes above...it creates problems.

Still, minor flaws aside, this episode shows more of what I hoped this series would be like going in.

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

I don't believe that.

In the face of extinction everything goes out the door and the only thing that matters is survival. That's how it's always been. And even in that case the allies would mainly stay out of each other's way.

They don't even bother giving any explanation as to why they wanted the prototype to fail.

Why would Company A whose assisting Company B in developing a weapon that can decimate the enemy deliberately sabotage it at the cost of it's own forces?Especially when they don't have a large pool of manpower and land to begin with. Not to mention when there's nothing to be gained by sabotaging it in the first place.

Look at it this way, the forces on the front lines aren't even true blooded Russians and remember that they lured out the BETA. This wasn't an invasion and they had the forces on hold to deal with it after they all died.

The reason the Russians did this is because they don't want the Japanese getting ahead of them in the arms race, the Russians are only thinking on what benefits them and not everyone else. The front liners aren't true blooded soviets so they're expendable and I'm sure the Russians believe that dying to prevent the Japanese from getting ahead is worth it.

When Yui's weapon does fire it confirms the Russians fears that the weapon will change things and give Japan an edge. Which means more resources and aid will be sent to Japan instead of used for the Russian's immediate benefit. Furthermore if the weapon was destroyed or failed to be fired than the Russians could use it as leverage against the Japanese and severely damage their image with the UN. The weapon may be for the good of everyone but it doesn't help the Russians maintain dominance so they're willing to waste resources, money, and lives if it means they can maintain their dominance.

Which explains why they treated Yuuya so bad when they captured him, they will protect their dominance no matter what. Even at the cost of their allies.

[Silvance]

Originally Posted by Aphrah

Oh, wow; that's quality right there.

Mhm, so she pilots one as well? I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me. But yeah, that's a damn shame indeed.

Yeah. You should've seen it already. Just check GenjiChan's signature.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Boy, it seems to me like Satellite was doing everything they can to delay showing the battle They showed the briefing, cut to Yuuya's angry monologue, show some male bonding, Scarlet Twins scene, pre-battlefield banter, just ANYTHING to avoid going into the battle

Haha. Those battles were mostly bland too except for the one with the SU-37UB, and that was short as well. The real eye candy would have to be the Shiranui Second and the railgun. Even though the battle scenes were disappointing, I find it hard to blame them due to their budget.

Originally Posted by Domonkazu

I don't believe human will be able to stand together if there if an alien invasion, they will still have their personal agenda.

I concur. With conflicting values, methods, and ideals, it's bound to happen that they'd all clash, and obstruct one another.

[DezoPenguin]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Look at it this way, the forces on the front lines aren't even true blooded Russians and remember that they lured out the BETA. This wasn't an invasion and they had the forces on hold to deal with it after they all died.

(emphasis added)

While I agree with everything posted, I think this is the part that bears repeating. The Russians are not putting Kamchatka at risk of being overrun by BETA by their backstabbing stratagem here. They're losing one flight of TSF and a few tanks (indeed, they specifically didn't resupply their armored forces, so they're actually losing even fewer tanks than they would be otherwise--no reason to throw good equipment after bad, plus it set the stage to lure Zhar Flight out of position so as to interfere with Argos Flight). Cold, ruthless, and self-centered, definitely yes, but not an act of utter idiocy.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Look at it this way, the forces on the front lines aren't even true blooded Russians and remember that they lured out the BETA. This wasn't an invasion and they had the forces on hold to deal with it after they all died.

That still doesn't make sense because those mechanized infantry and TSF's out there are worth a lot more than the pilots they are sacrificing.

It's one thing to sacrifice a man but it's another for billion of dollars worth of equipment and hardware.

They're losing one flight of TSF and a few tanks (indeed, they specifically didn't resupply their armored forces, so they're actually losing even fewer tanks than they would be otherwise--no reason to throw good equipment after bad, plus it set the stage to lure Zhar Flight out of position so as to interfere with Argos Flight). Cold, ruthless, and self-centered, definitely yes, but not an act of utter idiocy.

Except the officer himself admitted that the loss of the mechanized infantry and TSFs was just as bad as losing a single bomber. He even pointed out that fuel and ammo was scarce in their arsenal. If they are having that much of an issue with those guys then the hardware's just as bad.

[Sheba]

Let's just say that various factions in the VN were already thinking of the post-beta world, and its possible shifts in the power ladder. And what we are seeing in this ep is a glimpse of it.

[playmaker2k]

That was the best episode so far! I like how they showed how Yuuya was trying to cope with the fear of a real life battlefield. Yuuya held it down and didn't lose his composure just like a true leader and showed courage.

I like how Yuuya just shuts those kids up with just a simple grown man response instead of lashing out like a hot head would. The sounds of their silence was delicious!

There is also a very important thing that happened at the very end with Yui.

I remember at the end of episode 2, she promised herself that she would never cry again and low and behold here it is. I can't wait to see what happens next!

Oh and I like VG reaction to the BETA vaporizing. I take that pose as a touchdown!

[serenade_beta]

Wow, BETA finally come back from summer break and what do you get?
Absolutely horrible animation.
Faces were weird (more than usual)
Battle sometimes didn't move at all
And ON TOP OF THAT, there was a scene where the character's mouth and voice wasn't even synced. Wo-woah... I don't have in memory the last time I saw something like that.

Oh, and Yacof. RI... R-...