2012-09-01, 19:18 | Link #30301 | ||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Also, even if everything you just said is true, if it was Battler who solved the epitaph then would Yasu still commit suicide? She'd completely become Beatrice... but how would that even work? If you consider Author Theory as a premise, someone being alive is one of a relatively short list of possible explanations. And considering his presence in the meta-world, it's not surprising if it's Battler. Quote:
Like, say, by early 1986 she had given up on Battler and was in the middle of preparing her new life (either alone or with George). To tie up lose ends she was planning some kind of incident for the family conference to choose the next head, but then in July, or whenever it was, she suddenly heard that Battler was coming back, which lead her to pull out all the stops in an all-or-nothing attempt to "shoot the moon" and get Battler to remember. Battler is dead!!! |
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2012-09-01, 19:44 | Link #30303 | |||
The True Culprit
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2012-09-01, 19:44 | Link #30304 | ||
Human
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Crime Scene
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It was already cited before. Go back a few pages...
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If Battler solved the epitaph, she'd point to kuwadorian and send him there. If he wanted to take with him all the family, or stop the bomb, Yasu would find a way to off herself and make it look like another sacrifice. If Battler remembered Yasu, the miracle that she was striving for would become real. She'd die happy, knowing that he didn't forget her... but she'd still kill herself, as punishment for the crimes. Maybe in Rokkenjima-Prime, as you call it, that's what happened. Quote:
But metaphysical/metaphorical weirdness aside, no matter how brain damaged he was, that body was legaly and biologicaly Battler. And that's what we are discussing, wether Tohya is or not a new personality of Battler. Tohya is in Battler's body, with all the insane Umineko-ish twists it entails. Bluntly put, Battler doesn't remember himself but he's still alive There's not proof that he isn't. That's what Ryuukishi said to Keiya in the interview. That "Yes, it was Battler"! Personality death is such a pain... so yeah, you found a statement that said that Battler is not Tohya... everyone already knows it, if is in the know about personality death and all that madness about being one yet many in Umineko, but whatever. as I promised, I'll consider that 'Tohya is not Battler theory', as a little above asspull. How about nonsense? Or maybe "Something as likely as Krauss' investments suddenly making profit for him"? For god's- we are going in circles here. And before somebody says anything, going in circles is not logic. Maybe it is. Of the insane troll type.
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Last edited by Patchwork Chimera; 2012-09-01 at 20:00. |
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2012-09-01, 20:11 | Link #30305 | ||
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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As for Yasu, well, I don't want to sound boastful (what the heck, I totally do), but I'd reasoned out her promise, personality quarrel and had some ideas for her motive without using Chiru clues. But yeah, that's as far as it goes, I could never imagine the dad on daughter action going on in Kuwadorian. At best I thought she was Kinzo and Beatrice's child he tried to thrust on Natsuhi after the second's death, which is accurate minus one generation, but that was in EP5 so screw it. But I guess a really smart person would pay attention to the 'humunclus' stuff and try to make some sense out of them. Quote:
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2012-09-01, 20:26 | Link #30306 | |
The True Culprit
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That alone implies there's another culprit besides herself even if she did do shit. But there's no way to pin down what happened in any meaningful way.
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2012-09-01, 20:43 | Link #30307 |
黄金の魔女 Golden Witch
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Natal-RN, Brazil
Age: 28
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I always thought the "portray herself as the sole culprit" meant "make it seems like she didn't have any accomplices", because it is obvious that there's always someone helping her in every game, even if it isn't the same person every time.
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2012-09-01, 22:05 | Link #30308 | ||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Yes I know about that. You don't seem to have read my response to it.
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Remember in EP8 in the cave on Oct. 6 when Battler assures Beatrice that she didn't commit any crimes "in this world", and Beatrice was relieved? Quote:
----------------------------------------------------- By the way, I was looking over some Japanese sites for thoughts on Ikuko=Yasu and found this interpretation on the EP8 boat scene: (Translation by me. Corrections welcome.) Spoiler:
But still, interesting. |
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2012-09-01, 22:07 | Link #30309 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
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Beatrice not only has a role as Battler's ideal chick. She's also the gameboard She's also the rules of the gameboard I believe, so she survives as long as the rules do. Interestingly enough in the two episodes where she wasn't the golden witch (by succession or simply dying) it was because someone else took the blame for the crimes. Quote:
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"Kinzo made a human body as a blank slate (ie a child (or amnesiac I guess)) and tried to trap Beatrice in it, but it didn't work". Even if it wasn't guessable at the time, it sure was hinted. Quote:
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2012-09-02, 01:46 | Link #30310 | ||
The True Culprit
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Even if it did, Ikuko is not the solution. Who she is 100% does not matter to the situation. Quote:
Almost every instance that could possibly relate to Ryukishi's presumed gender roles is entirely wrong, and he only said it in an interview regarding Beatrice's suicide, so I tend to think he was bullshitting in that specific instance without thinking in the context of the greater novel. Even if it didn't contradict his novel? It's incredibly fucking sexist and he should've kept his mouth shut.
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2012-09-02, 02:42 | Link #30311 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Our confessions explains that Yasu blackmails people in the different games into being an accomplice so that she can carry out the murders. it makes sense that Ryukishi would imply that she has accomplices then.
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2012-09-02, 03:04 | Link #30312 |
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Evidence for Ikuko=Yasuda:
1. Ikuko = "many children" 2. I don't think it is a stretch to assume that Tohya's early memories of meeting Ikuko may have been at least a little manipulated. 3. At the beginning Ikuko seemed quite shy to me. It took time until she changed to the personality she had at the end. 4. We have no idea what Yasu did in the last 2 years before the incident. But if she planned to leave the island, she would have to have a stable identity. Both Shannon and Kanon were adaptable for outside Rokkenjima, "Beatrice" however, as she mentioned herself, cannot just leave Rokkenjima. So she would either leave as "herself" (Yasu) or create a new identity alltogether (Ikuko). And if she wanted to live with that new identity, she would have to CREATE it first (Ikuko's house etc.) 5. Yukari mentions about Ikuko having a "timeless feeling" and seemed like she would never age. We know that Yasu had talent in "appearing as being younger". 6. The last scene in the orphange suggests that Ange replaces Yukari, Battler replaces Tohya and Beatrice replaces Ikuko. Oh and by the way: "Tohya" was foreshadowed in EP6 when Ange asked why in publicity there was a "young man" instead of a woman as Hachijo Tohya
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Last edited by GreyZone; 2012-09-02 at 09:24. Reason: Corrected list |
2012-09-02, 04:49 | Link #30313 | ||||||
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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But well, the whole game is about filling the cat-box with what you believe happened, I guess. Quote:
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The stuff about the name is almost as ridiculous as KnownNoMore's 'Rose Symbolism'. I would accept it if any of the other hints was adequate to support that theory. However, most things on this list are assumptions.
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2012-09-02, 05:28 | Link #30314 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
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The only hints that I can come up with on the spot are meta Beato herself, which is a messy road, or from the third game Virigillia. That would make sense in terms of the fact that she only helps from the third game, but not in terms of who she actually represents and that Ryu sort of invented her to help a struggling fanbase. So either I'm not seeing them, or he just never hinted at it. That isn't annoying from a Knox standpoint, so much as for the reason that rule exists: People hate characters who pop up out of nowhere but are needed for the solution. |
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2012-09-02, 06:16 | Link #30315 | ||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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So basically, like if Kyrie had started imagining Higurashi style arcs about how she murdered Asumu. You read the lyrics to 'Golden Nocturne', and you REALLY get the impression that Yasu's tragedy wasn't just a Nazi bomb, or romantic indecision, but SEVERELY overthinking crap. Quote:
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Old point, but I still don't get why we're doubting Battler's personality so much. Sure, we can doubt his presentation MORE than the others because he has a six year gap instead of a 1 year gap like the rest, but ... really, why? His piece doesn't exactly go to a new corner of the MBTI in Chiru, either. He's always been a mystery buff, always offered solutions to closed rooms (when he isn't being incompetent), and in End he was given an open invitation to solve the epitaph WITH the adults (who all know the hometown)m which hadn't happened before. And in Dawn he's just an accomplice, sooooo ... yeah. :-/ |
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2012-09-02, 07:05 | Link #30316 | ||
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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By the way, am I the only one who thinks the whole MariaXSakutarou stuff was a huge parallel to ShannonXKanon? That was basically my first reason for starting to doubt Kanon's existence.
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2012-09-02, 07:23 | Link #30317 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Age: 27
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Call me mad, but Yasu's motive is one of my favorite things in this series. Honestly. I like it, because you really have to understand stuff in order to get there. (But yeah, I think neither she could say what she hoped to happen).
*randomly comes in* I agree with the Captain!!!!*Leaves*
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2012-09-02, 07:59 | Link #30318 | ||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Sure, if one considers Kanon's behaviour as a reflection of Yasu's thought on that relation it can seem Yasu had little fait in that relation but actually Kanon believed Shannon's relation with George wouldn't work either while Shannon seemed to believe Kanon's relation with Jessica could work as well. So to me Kanon merely represent Yasu's pessimism in any relation she might have working while Shannon represent the optimism. With this premise though it's easy to assume Shannon has more chances than Kanon. Also when Yasu took the ring she wasn't trying to make things work anymore as her following step is always start murdering as she planned prior to take the ring. So maybe she tried to make it work previously but, when she took the ring, she was already willing to give it up. Quote:
Sure, it's also possible she would have challenged him with the epitaph but since the adults weren't in such desperate ecomomical situation it was unlikely the whole could escalate into real murder... though this would be a little more unpredictable so I don't really know if Will could be so sure it wouldn't happen. Quote:
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That's why I'm more for something went wrong and people went paranoyd. After all even in the gameboards when the murders start people slowly grow paranoyd and start accusing each other... Quote:
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That's why there's people who wonder if Yasu is really Beato 2's child or she was to play that role when Kinzo was about to die or she just believed she was on her own (and I think there were other theories but I can't remember which were). For all we know the real Yasu might not even been on Rokkenjima that day and the Ushiromiya might have hired another servant whose blessed name was Shannon and Yasu might have written her stories merely pretending that Shannon was her. Of course this would have made the tragedy of Rokkenjima completely disconnected to the tales... or Yasu could have still be involved in it as she might have orchestrated from afar a game that developed in the wrong way even if what happened in Prime would surely have been different from what happened on the gameboard (as in the gameboard Shannon & Kanon are Yasu while on Prime they would be 2 different people). And no, I don't think that's what had happened but that's the problem with the whole setting. It gives us too much freedom to come up with assorted solutions instead than driving us securely to the right one. Quote:
She's not just your ordinary girl you would happen to meet. If she's a random chara, her existence works like a forced deus ex machina to create a certain setting that in normal situations wouldn't happen. That's why for me it's difficult to like the idea she's just a random chara. Quote:
Ange never mention that the forgeries, be them the messages in the bottles or Hachijo's tales, point to a Shannon/Kanon culprit theory so either the forgeries couldn't be solved or they pointed to other culprits. Otherwise I would expect Ange to wonder about why the messages and Hachijo or one of the two have fun in pointing as the servants as culprits and investigate on them. They aren't the ideal culprits as Ange wants to pin Eva as culprit but hey, I think she would sacrifice her EvaCulprit Theory in favour of a NotRudolf's familyCulprit Theory. |
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2012-09-02, 08:42 | Link #30319 | |||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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The article I posted defines clearly what a logical reasoning is, and it's not anything close to what you claim. Besides how can you even remotely claim that a logical fallacy is legit? What's your problem exactly? Already answered, and besides, that's featherine not Ikuko. The Ikuko on the flashbacks and the Ikuko seen by Yukari doesn't really display the arrogance and air of superiority that are characteristic of Featherine. Well now, "completely". He's wrong, but a good part of his story can be explained. If he made that statement it means that at least he tried to write his story that way. To say that nothing in Umineko is properly hinted would be an enormous bullshit. So in the end, if it is apparent, easily deducible and it doesn't conflict with anything, what is the reason to think it's a lie? Quote:
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You got it wrong It's 18^8. There's no 19^9 anywhere. and that's the reading of Touya Hachijo The "19" is still taken from the name "Ikuko". By the way Iku(ko) Hachijo would be 19^8, though no one mentioned that in the story.
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2012-09-02, 09:30 | Link #30320 | |
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Also: Please provide an example for the following scenario: How would Yasu act, if Battler came 1 year earlier? I still see no alternative to my theory to explain what she would do if he fulfilled his promise "in time" yet, because "she cannot leave the island as Beatrice". And thank you Jan-Poo. I corrected the mistake.
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