Log Horizon - Episode 11 Discussion / Poll

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by darksassin

Yeah, the Author havent even start to reveal what Elder Tale World really is, whether it is a parallel world or not.


Fascinating. I almost want to join the discussion but the thing is, both of you, that all the things you both were saying are SPECULATIONS, not facts. No where in the anime(or even the source novels I think) state how and why the Adventurers in this Elder Tale world or What Elder Tale (both the world and the game)really is. So please do not treat your speculation as facts

edit: I think thats spoilerish Aohige

I don't realy understand what you mean here. Elder Tale was game and as such it was designed and created by humans. I think it's safe consider this fact.

That Game mechanics work in this world is also fact. So I don't see problem here.

And the world... Oh I see. This probably what you meant. Yeah, we actualy don't know whether it's paralel world, but I don't think I ever claime THIS to be fact, even though it's only thing we came to agree with each other so far. Anyway what we do know it is world on it's own regardless of it's origin.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by darksassin

edit: I think thats spoilerish Aohige

?????

How is me pointing out that "Novasphere is a mistranslation", and the correct English translation is "Homesteading the Noosphere", in any ways or form, a SPOILER? Hell, it's not even a translation, it was originally an English open source essay, and in fact, the ノウアスフィアの開墾 is actually the JAPANESE translation of the English title.

What??
If I told you Soujirou Seta is based on Rurouni Kenshin character of the same name, is that a spoiler?
Or that Krusty is a Simpsons character, is that a spoiler? WTF?

Were you trying to be funny, or did you actually not bother to read what I posted.

[darksassin]

Originally Posted by GundamFan

Actually no outside information would be required to come to the conclusion that they could probably farm or mine minerals. Now it was a smaller details you might miss since it was regards to Serara subclass which depending on the translation it's either maid or housekeeper but it was mentioned in either episode 3 or 4. Which that combined with Nyanta chef subclass would indicate most activities could be done by players if they wanted to role play as such since mundane task such as cooking and cleaning could be.

What you said is basically based on assumption, not fact. I never said it is impossible for Adventurers to farm or mine. So far in anime there is no mention of farmer or miner subclass, or if they can farm or mine. So thats why I said "I wondered". And no, I didnt miss that details. So the fact is we do not know yet if they can farm or mine.Maybe they can, maybe they cannot, but the thing I want to say in that statement is if they cant, The adventurers would be more dependant on Lander sellers for resources, not "they cannot farm or mine"

[Tenzen12]

While we can't say it for sure, that they can is VERY probable. I would guess above 90%.

[darksassin]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

I don't realy understand what you mean here. Elder Tale was game and as such it was designed and created by humans. I think it's safe consider this fact.

That Game mechanics work in this world is also fact. So I don't see problem here.

And the world... Oh I see. This probably what you meant. Yeah, we actualy don't know whether it's paralel world, but I don't think I ever claime THIS to be fact, even though it's only thing we came to agree with each other so far. Anyway what we do know it is world on it's own regardless of it's origin.

" You have to realise Elder Tale game
work as interface between real world
and Elder Tale world."
There is no mention or indication of this in anime, and you say this as af it was a fact. Thi is in itself is a speculation so far.

Originally Posted by aohige

?????

How is me pointing out that "Novasphere is a mistranslation", and the correct English translation is "Homesteading the Noosphere", in any ways or form, a SPOILER? Hell, it's not even a translation, it was originally an ENGLISH OPEN SOURCE ESSAY, and in fact, the ノウアスフィアの開墾 is actually the JAPANESE translation of the English title.

What??
If I told you Soujirou Seta is based on Rurouni Kenshin character of the same name, is that a spoiler?
Or that Krusty is a Simpsons character, is that a spoiler? WTF?

Were you trying to be funny, or did you actually not bother to read what I posted.

Sorry, I misinterpret your statement. I saw it as if you were saying you got the connection to noosphere from manga(I got the impression that you were saying noosphere is being discussed by characters in manga). It is pretty clear now that I was mistaken.OTL Im sorry...

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by darksassin

" You have to realise Elder Tale game
work as interface between real world
and Elder Tale world."
There is no mention or indication of this in anime, and you say this as af it was a fact. Thi is in itself is a speculation so far.

Let's see...

Before Armagedon players could interact with Elder Tale world by playing game. It's just recently that adventurers started act more like humans instead of simplified avatars. If you keep eye on episode threads, you should know it.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by darksassin

Fascinating. I almost want to join the discussion but the thing is, both of you, that all the things you both were saying are SPECULATIONS, not facts. No where in the anime(or even the source novels I think) state how and why the Adventurers in this Elder Tale world or What Elder Tale (both the world and the game)really is. So please do not treat your speculation as facts

I'm not. Why do you think there's a lot of "would be's" and "more likely's" in there?

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Let's see...

Before Armagedon players could interact with Elder Tale world by playing game. It's just recently that adventurers started act more like humans instead of simplified avatars.

So yes, it is already proven fact.

But there's no evidence whatsoever that it was earthlings who somehow created the dimensionally interactive component of the game (seriously, how would they even do that?). That part is clearly magical, and thus more likely to come from the Elder Tales side.

[darksassin]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Let's see...

Before Armagedon players could interact with Elder Tale world by playing game. It's just recently that adventurers started act more like humans instead of simplified avatars.

So yes, it is already proven fact.

Again, where exactly in the anime this is explained? Which episode? During what scene?

[Tenzen12]

Ok, I am realy sorry for spoiling you. It was repeatedly mentioned in various comparrisons before, so I expected you knew it.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by darksassin

Again, where exactly in the anime this is explained? Which episode? During what scene?

The Lander hunter in this episode believing that adventurers are just mindless killing machines?

The royalty inviting the Round Table because they realize adventurers are changing and want to know what the hell is going on?

Yeah, they haven't explicitly stated it word for word, but this anime has a habit of not spoon-feeding everything from the start and relying on people reading between the lines instead.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by darksassin

I guess what I meant to say is yes, the Landers do not need Adventurers economically/ for day to day life since they are self sufficient even without the Adventurers, its just that the Landers would benefit from interacting with Adventurers since as tsunade666 said it, adventurers in this stage are consumers.

BUT, we do not know if Adventurers are needed or not concerning other aspects in life of the Landers. Are Adventurers similar to Superheroes, needed when something threaten normal people's day to day life? Or are the Adventurers just pest in this world, that would just harm the Landers with their violence and bloodshed? It can go either way really.



I wonder if the Adventurers can farm or not since no where in the anime indicate that Adventurers can farm.How about metal? can they mine? So far the anime only shows that the way adventurers can get raw materials are loot from monster and buying from Landers. So it is possible that not just quantity, the adventurers would probably be having limited type of materials/items without Landers. So yeah, I agree with you.

Edit: Please try to refrain the spoiler. Author input is probably spoilerish at this time

in ragnarok online I can get fruit and metal by killing certain monsters. if et is a similar game they can get raw material without farming or mining

[aohige]

I think the problem is that supplementary material like wiki and spinoffs have confirmed some things that were only "hinted" in the anime, so those who read them already have the mindset of confirmed when approaching the hints in the first place.

[darksassin]

Originally Posted by Keroko

I'm not. Why do you think there's a lot of "would be's" and "more likely's" in there?

"The later is easier to explain,
as the world of Elder Tale has magic
to allow the apocalypse"
Like I said, you said things like this as if it is a fact. Maybe its your wording?

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Ok, I am realy sorry for spoiling you. It was repeatedly mentioned in various comparrisons before, so I expected you knew it.

Actually... You dont spoil me anything
Its just that this is anime only thread, and it is possible that someone else will get spoiled... Sorry if I sound rude or annoying.

Originally Posted by Keroko

The Lander hunter in this episode believing that adventurers are just mindless killing machines?

The royalty inviting the Round Table because they realize adventurers are changing and want to know what the hell is going on?

Yeah, they haven't explicitly stated it word for word, but this anime has a habit of not spoon-feeding everything from the start and relying on people reading between the lines instead.

Yep they are implying that. But That doesnt meant what we are reading between the line is a fact, more like an assumption or conclusion. Even Shiroe's "Landers are human being/living being" is an assumption/conclusion on his part. For all we know it is possible that landers are highly sentient AI program.

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

in random online I can get fruit and metal by killing certain monsters. if et is a similar game they can get raw material without farming or mining

It is possible for that. But then again doing it that way would probably require more effort. Also the loots are usually random so its harder to get something in quantity.

Originally Posted by aohige

I think the problem is that supplementary material like wiki and spinoffs have confirmed some things that were only "hinted" in the anime, so those who read them already have the mindset of confirmed when approaching the hints in the first place.

I guess thats the problem here . I dont really mind debates, I even tempted to join, but this is anime only thread..And even though I already knew a few, Seeing blatant spoiler here just kinda irk me. Im sorry if I hurt anyone's feeling...

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

in random online I can get fruit and metal by killing certain monsters. if et is a similar game they can get raw material without farming or mining

Earth elementals sound like a good source for various raw ores, yeah.

Originally Posted by darksassin

"The later is easier to explain,
as the world of Elder Tale has magic
to allow the apocalypse"
Like I said, you said things like this as if it is a fact. Maybe its your wording?

Well yes, if you pluck a random line out of context then anything can sound like bad wording. Especially when you cut out the part where I explicitly say it's a theory. Which is literally just one word before your quote.

Originally Posted by darksassin

Yep they are implying that. But That doesnt meant what we are reading between the line is a fact, more like an assumption or conclusion. Even Shiroe's "Landers are human being/living being" is an assumption/conclusion on his part. For all we know it is possible that landers are highly sentient AI program.

Which is another theory of the events (albeit one dreading the blade of Occam's Razor). But even when we use this theory, it still doesn't change anything: The adventurers still changed and started to act more human only recently, as the Lander's reactions show.

Originally Posted by darksassin

It is possible for that. But then again doing it that way would probably require more effort. Also the loots are usually random so its harder to get something in quantity.

Ehh, that's just farming 101. Kill enough and you have all the quantity you need.

It's "kill for gold to buy the goods from Landers" versus "kill for the resources themselves."

Originally Posted by darksassin

I guess thats the problem here . I dont really mind debates, I even tempted to join, but this is anime only thread..And even though I already knew a few, Seeing blatant spoiler here just kinda irk me. Im sorry if I hurt anyone's feeling...

It'd make it impossible to debate some of the stuff, such as details on Serara's Subclass, if we truly stick to "it must be explicitly mentioned in the anime" though. Because the anime simply doesn't go into detail on a lot of things.

[darksassin]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Earth elementals sound like a good source for various raw ores, yeah.



Well yes, if you pluck a random line out of context then anything can sound like bad wording. Especially when you cut out the part where I explicitly say it's a theory. Which is literally just one word before your quote.



Which is another theory of the events (albeit one dreading the blade of Occam's Razor). But even when we use this theory, it still doesn't change anything: The adventurers still changed and started to act more human only recently, as the Lander's reactions show.



Ehh, that's just farming 101. Kill enough and you have all the quantity you need.

It's "kill for gold to buy the goods from Landers" versus "kill for the resources themselves."



It'd make it impossible to debate some of the stuff, such as details on Serara's Subclass, if we truly stick to "it must be explicitly mentioned in the anime" though. Because the anime simply doesn't go into detail on a lot of things.

Sorry The way I read it:
" I should note at this point that I
subscribe to the "Elder Tale is a
parallel world the players got
transported to, not the game world
that inexplicably became real" theory(Your theory)

.The later is easier to explain,
as the world of Elder Tale has magic
to allow the apocalypse to happen, (Your supporting 'fact' of the theory)

I guess its similar with how Shiroe said that "The NPC are living being"(his conclusion) "because the feel pain, have feeling, emotion, history, and family"(his supporting fact.)

So yeah I guess I misread it. Thats why I said "as if you are stating a fact"

Ehh, that's just farming 101. Kill enough and you have all the quantity you need.
It's "kill for gold to buy the goods from Landers" versus "kill for the resources themselves."

It is the matter of efficiency. How efficient is it? Why hunt for a whole day to try to get the item you want if you can hunt for an hour and bought them from Landers?

It'd make it impossible to debate some of the stuff, such as details on Serara's Subclass, if we truly stick to "it must be explicitly mentioned in the anime" though. Because the anime simply doesn't go into detail on a lot of things.

Umm, the [SPOILER] button exist for a reason...

[GundamFan]

Originally Posted by darksassin

Yep they are implying that. But That doesnt meant what we are reading between the line is a fact, more like an assumption or conclusion. Even Shiroe's "Landers are human being/living being" is an assumption/conclusion on his part. For all we know it is possible that landers are highly sentient AI program.

Well I'm not convinced Shiroe meant humans in a literal flesh and blood sense or vague sentient being sense. But yeah darksassin somethings are going to be implied through actions the people who did the show probably figure there audience isn't a bunch of complete idiots who need to have every freaking detail spelled out for them in dialogue.

[darksassin]

Originally Posted by GundamFan

Well I'm not convinced Shiroe meant humans in a literal flesh and blood sense or vague sentient being sense. But yeah darksassin somethings are going to be implied through actions the people who did the show probably figure there audience isn't a bunch of complete idiots who need to have every freaking detail spelled out for them in dialogue.

Yea, thats true, Thats the fun of this show really, to discuss the assumption and speculation from the implied things. But the thing is, those speculation and assumptions, no matter how logical and reasonable they are, are just that. Not fact.
There is a situation called red herring where all the things happened lead to A, while in reality it could be B all along. Unless A is proven true as a fact, its still an assumption. The problem here is people treat A as a fact, not assumption or speculation.

And another thing is, this is episode 11 thread. For me at least it is fine comparing anime to novel up to that episode, or specifying what the anime cuts. For example what really happen while Shiroe and co fight Demikas. or that what someone said in anime is different than what he or she said in source material. Or what Shiroe want to do with 5 million gold.The thing is people using things from source novel and side materials as basis for their argument here. Those things are still spoiler if the anime still havent reach that far. For example, whether the Adventurers can farm or not havent been touched in 11 episodes of anime. The Source novel up until this point(vol 3 ch 1 I believe) still didnt mention if they can or not. So it is still a speculation at this point, and if you say they can or not based on later source materials, or side stories, then that is spoiler for this thread.
Like I said, I dont mind these kind of discussion, I even like it, its just that this thread is unsuitable for these kind of discussion IMO.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by darksassin

It is the matter of efficiency. How efficient is it? Why hunt for a whole day to try to get the item you want if you can hunt for an hour and bought them from Landers?

Because Landers have a limited stock of things, and raw materials tend to get bought up en-masse by the merchant guilds, which results in people going out and farming. We've seen this happen in detail over the past ten episodes.

Originally Posted by darksassin

Umm, the [SPOILER] button exist for a reason...

What I mean is that it's really not worth spoilering since it's neither additional information the anime will never cover in the first place nor information that reveals any plot points.

Originally Posted by darksassin

For example, whether the Adventurers can farm or not havent been touched in 11 episodes of anime.

There's a fully functional farm providing a large variety of ingredients for the party in episode 5.

Remember, read between the lines rather than rely solely on quotes.

[darksassin]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Because Landers have a limited stock of things, and raw materials tend to get bought up en-masse by the merchant guilds, which results in people going out and farming. We've seen this happen in detail over the past ten episodes.



What I mean is that it's really not worth spoilering since it's neither additional information the anime will never cover in the first place nor information that reveals any plot points.

There's a fully functional farm providing a large variety of ingredients for the party in episode 5.

Remember, read between the lines rather than rely solely on quotes.

Because Landers have a limited stock of things, and raw materials tend to get bought up en-masse by the merchant guilds, which results in people going out and farming. We've seen this happen in detail over the past ten episodes.

That is just a hypothetical question. And your statement already proved one thing. Its easier to just buy the raw materials.

What I mean is that it's really not worth spoilering since it's neither What I mean is that it's really not worth spoilering since it's neither additional information the anime will never cover in the first place nor information that reveals any plot points.

Well it is possible that there are anime watchers who want to read those side stories and those " additional information the anime will never cover in the first place" that has been taken from those side stories would probably become a spoiler for them. So just in case

There's a fully functional farm providing a large variety of ingredients for the party in episode 5.

Remember, read between the lines rather than rely solely on quotes.

And your point is? That still doesnt explain if the Adventurers can farm or not. The farm are managed by Landers, and the way the farm providing the party with ingredients is by Landers selling those ingredients to them. We are never shown Shiroe or other party member farming. So where and how exactly in that scene show that Adventurers can farm?

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by darksassin

That is just a hypothetical question. And your statement already proved one thing. Its easier to just buy the raw materials.

If you have the funds and people in the right places to swiftly suck up the stock the moment it arrives, yes. Which would mean you're in one of the major merchant guilds. If you're not in one of the major merchant guilds, you have to choose between farming or buying from those guilds at their prices. Which is, again, what we see happen in the anime.

Originally Posted by darksassin

Well it is possible that there are anime watchers who want to read those side stories and those " additional information the anime will never cover in the first place" that has been taken from those side stories would probably become a spoiler for them. So just in case

They're not side-stories. They're document notes. Literally the only place to find English information about them is the wiki.

Originally Posted by darksassin

And your point is? That still doesnt explain if the Adventurers can farm or not. The farm are managed by Landers, and the way the farm providing the party with ingredients is by Landers selling those ingredients to them. We are never shown Shiroe or other party member farming. So where and how exactly in that scene show that Adventurers can farm?

Blar, my mistake. I mistook "Adventurer" for "Lander" for some reason. But given that there's a Subclass called "farmer" in the untranslated list of Subclasses that flashed by in episode 2 (or is that a spoiler as well now?) the answer would still be yes.