Psycho-Pass - Episode 22 [END] Discussion / Poll

[lordblazer]

Well this was no Ghost in the Shell. Soo I dunno. I didn't really liked the series to begin with. Simply because they could have done a lot more with it. They chose not to. There isn't too much incentive to create great work in this industry. But this is a worldwide trend.

[Akka]

Rather underwhelmed by the ending, as lots of people are.
I share the common opinion that the first two third/three fourth of the show were fantastic, but after the "revelation" the focus switched from "society at large" to "Ko vs Maki" and lost a lot of steam.

Above all, I'm rather disappointed in Akane. She was supposed to become tougher, I saw her simply being extremely weak. But then, maybe it was the point ?
Sybil talk about how Akane value the stability the system brings despite hating it. From what I gather about her memories we saw when she was thinking, it seems that even above all, Akane is afraid. Not afraid of criminal (she's physically courageous), but afraid of uncertainty in life.
She knows the secret, but she does nothing. She hates Sybil, and she claims to want it down, but she wait for someone else to do the dirty work - despite being more than willing to do the dirty work herself when it comes to dealing with criminal.

So yeah, my opinion is that she's just a coward. She wants stability more for herself than for society as a whole - and, in this manner, she condemn others to be crushed because she can't take a hard decision, just like when Maki killed Yuki because she couldn't take upon herself to stop him.

[Akka]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I like to think that the closest equivalent to Sibyl is something like the Roman Empire. Here we have a society that have treated its non-Roman citizens poorly, run on slavery, etc... Yet it have lasted over five centuries, so one have to wonder why. Because its benefits outweighted its bad points. People have had running water, a police force that have made sure that citizens travelled safely within its borders (and therefore the commerce is secure) and the government have done what it could to ensure that food supply is always running. In other words, it have been not that bad.

No, the closest equivalent to Sibyl is rather the lotus-eater from the Odysseus. A society of people putting themselve in a cocoon of apathy to avoid any displeasure, and ending as mere shell with no sould inside.
The Roman Empire was simply a strongly-built government. Sibyl is much, much worse : it's a government that control the very mind of the citizen. It's not interested in justice, only in stability - from what we get in the serie, the Criminal Coefficient is simply about how much you're willing to be violent, not at all about your actual ethics. The system can as such eliminate people that would be in a state of mind to fight the system : only a very few dysfunctionnal people like the asymptomatic criminal are able to slip long enough from its grasp to do anything - am I the only one who believe that Akane actually IS an asymptomatic criminal ?
This is the worst of tyranny : the tyranny that prevent people from even realizing they could change it.

What you describe is HOW such a system as Sibyl could have happened - people only looking at surperficial benefits, and willing to settle for that because of intellectual lazyness and psychological weakness.
IIRC, there is even a whole discussion about this in the show, how people gave away their freedom in order to have a more comfortable life.

[Crontica]

This system exists in the first place because previous generations failed time and time again to preserve and maintain a stable system. In all honesty they got what they payed for.

Getting things spouted in your face like "Survival of the fittest therefore i can do whatever the fck i want." "War is the best practice for stability." "You don't have money therefore there is nothing i can do to save your pitiful lives." seeing people endlessly repeating history like idiots, not even taking steps to see whether the situation can turn out better, honestly people just got tired of it.

So when a "holy grail" like Sybil came along, people jumped toward it like a potato out of hot water.

So if you want to stop Sybil you're going to have to surpass it unless it reinstates itself when all other options come to naught.

Trust me, i don't like it anymore than you do, but when it is the most efficient option to ensure mass stability across the masses i find it really pitiful, that it has come to this so that the government doesn't constantly screw you over too often.

[Triple_R]

Sybil is a reasonably logical "end game" for a culture that makes social harmony its highest aim (i.e. higher than liberty, equality, or fairness).

The one area where Sybil truly is tough to beat is in the area of social harmony.

It minimizes crime, it tends to remove the least peaceable and most different people from polite society, and it essentially encourages a very relaxed and easy-going approach to life. The people who thrive in Sibyl Japan are the ones that are psychologically well-adjusted, have an easy time casually going along with the norms and values of their society, and who "blend in" well. While Akane is uniquely strong, there's also a certain normalcy to her in her tastes and values. Shion, Kagari, and Yayoi are comparatively different and edgy; so here are your latent criminals.


To some degree, I think that Sybil is Gen's commentary on modern Japan, and how he probably thinks that modern Japan is a bit too concerned with social harmony. Or at least doesn't place enough value on other important characteristics of a good society (such as liberty, equality, fairness, etc....).

[Mandarake]

If I understood the ending correctly, Akane’ beef wasn’t with the way her society is currently organized, but rather with who, or more appropriately, what is currently calling the shots. In other words, she would have been okay with the current state of affairs but for the fact that a bunch of disembodied brains were in charge. To her, the issue was not what they were doing, but what they were – the “ick” factor. Thus, when Akane spoke of somebody someday pulling the plug on the brains, I thought she literally just meant them. As long as somebody or something less repugnant took over, the system could otherwise remain as is.

Based on her final conversation with Sybil, the general population shared her sentiments. People in general remained satisfied with the way the brains were running things, just as long as they didn’t ever find out what they really looked like.

Not exactly a condemnation in principle of the system. The brains were correct in understanding that it was all just a public relations issue.

Or am I missing something?

[Akka]

Originally Posted by Mandarake

If I understood the ending correctly, Akane’ beef wasn’t with the way her society is currently organized, but rather with who, or more appropriately, what is currently calling the shots. In other words, she would have been okay with the current state of affairs but for the fact that a bunch of disembodied brains were in charge. To her, the issue was not what they were doing, but what they were – the “ick” factor. Thus, when Akane spoke of somebody someday pulling the plug on the brains, I thought she literally just meant them. As long as somebody or something less repugnant took over, the system could otherwise remain as is.

What ?
The ENTIRE show was about how unjust and inhumane the system was, and how it was depriving the entire population of its free will.
The "ick" factor is the least concern, it's just a public relation problem.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Mandarake

If I understood the ending correctly, Akane’ beef wasn’t with the way her society is currently organized, but rather with who, or more appropriately, what is currently calling the shots. In other words, she would have been okay with the current state of affairs but for the fact that a bunch of disembodied brains were in charge. To her, the issue was not what they were doing, but what they were – the “ick” factor. Thus, when Akane spoke of somebody someday pulling the plug on the brains, I thought she literally just meant them. As long as somebody or something less repugnant took over, the system could otherwise remain as is.

No, her problem is that the system protects and empowers people like Makishima while shafting (or killing) people like Kougami or Kagari. One of the reasons the brains value her is that she's one of the very few who don't have much of an ick factor and "rationally" concludes it's better to serve them, whereas most people would unplug them on the ick factor alone.

[Mandarake]

Originally Posted by Akka

What ?
The ENTIRE show was about how unjust and inhumane the system was, and how it was depriving the entire population of its free will.
The "ick" factor is the least concern, it's just a public relation problem.

Was that really what the show was about? I'm not saying the system didn't do any of those things, because it did. But was that the central conflict of the story? Or was it rather just part of the setting?

[Mandarake]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

No, her problem is that the system protects and empowers people like Makishima while shafting (or killing) people like Kougami or Kagari. One of the reasons the brains value her is that she's one of the very few who don't have much of an ick factor and "rationally" concludes it's better to serve them, whereas most people would unplug them on the ick factor alone.

That's a good point. Let me just play devil's advocate for a bit.

First, I'm not sure Sybil ever fessed up to Akane about offing Kagari. But if that happened, then I would concede that's a major addition to the "ick" factor.

Second, I'm not really sure being turned into a disembodied brain and assymilated into Sybil constitutes protecting or "empowering." What makes the "ick" factor truly icky is that it's the most appalling form of dehumanization, worse than anything Sybil could inflict on ordinary people. I'm pretty sure part of what disgusted Akane about it is that she felt pity for the people who became those brains. I'm not sure she was told that they were all bad people, but I don't think that would have changed her reaction, and also, would it make things better if they used good people instead? Anyway, Makishima wanted nothing to do with it.

Third, that still means she would be ok with the Sybil system if the brains could be taken out of the equation.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Mandarake

That's a good point. Let me just play devil's advocate for a bit.

First, I'm not sure Sybil ever fessed up to Akane about offing Kagari. But if that happened, then I would concede that's a major addition to the "ick" factor.

She drew her own conclusions. Which the brains didn't bother to deny, not that it'd have done any good.

Second, I'm not really sure being turned into a disembodied brain and assymilated into Sybil constitutes protecting or "empowering."

They aren't destroy-decomposed like criminals who did a tenth or a hundredth of what they did would be. In fact, they order the police to risk their lives to make sure Makishima isn't killed, over any other concern - that's protection.

And they decide the fate of the country on a level only found in totalitarian regimes - that's empowerment.

What makes the "ick" factor truly icky is that it's the most appalling form of dehumanization, worse than anything Sybil could inflict on ordinary people. I'm pretty sure part of what disgusted Akane about it is that she felt pity for the people who became those brains. I'm not sure she was told that they were all bad people,

They boasted about having plenty of members worse than Makishima. And if they'd had any with a modicum of compassion or simple sanity, that's who they'd have sent to convince Akane to align with them.

but I don't think that would have changed her reaction, and also, would it make things better if they used good people instead? Anyway, Makishima wanted nothing to do with it.

But the brains themselves seemed rather happy with their conditions. Proud, even. Outright full of themselves.

Third, that still means she would be ok with the Sybil system if the brains could be taken out of the equation.

What matters to her are the ends, not the means, so yes. If the Sibyl system can be made to work as advertised, without the brains, she'd be happy to help it.

[Mandarake]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

She drew her own conclusions. Which the brains didn't bother to deny, not that it'd have done any good.


They aren't destroy-decomposed like criminals who did a tenth or a hundredth of what they did would be. In fact, they order the police to risk their lives to make sure Makishima isn't killed, over any other concern - that's protection.

And they decide the fate of the country on a level only found in totalitarian regimes - that's empowerment.


They boasted about having plenty of members worse than Makishima. And if they'd had any with a modicum of compassion or simple sanity, that's who they'd have sent to convince Akane to align with them.


But the brains themselves seemed rather happy with their conditions. Proud, even. Outright full of themselves.

.

Now there's a question I'm not sure about. Were they truly empowered so that they could do as they pleased, such as indulge in the perversions they had when they were still human? Or were they wired to the machinery so that the system could suck on them like lemons? I was under the impression that although they retained some consciousness of their former selves, they were not actually thinking for themselves anymore because they were being used as the brains of the machine. They were hot wired into permanent subservience to Sybil. That's why Sybil continued to gain functionality instead of going insane as each new sicko was added to the brain collection. Sybil was taking them over, not the other way around. It seemed to me that they no longer had the power to decide anything anymore as individuals. They could only function collectively at the behest of Sybil as a system.

And as for Makishima, they were protecting him the same way a fattened turkey is protected until right before thanksgiving. I think kougami did him a favor by blowing his brains out. Otherwise, his brain, along with his whole sense of self was destined for Sybil's consumption.

I agree with you that the brains didn't seem to mind what had been done to them. But that didn't make it any less abhorrent. No amount of consent by the victims could ever make something like that acceptable. Besides, could we really be sure their moods weren't being artificially cheered up, seeing as how everything else about their continuing existence was extremely unnatural?

[Crontica]

Originally Posted by Mandarake

Now there's a question I'm not sure about. Were they truly empowered so that they could do as they pleased, such as indulge in the perversions they had when they were still human? Or were they wired to the machinery so that the system could suck on them like lemons? I was under the impression that although they retained some consciousness of their former selves, they were not actually thinking for themselves anymore because they were being used as the brains of the machine. They were hot wired into permanent subservience to Sybil. That's why Sybil continued to gain functionality instead of going insane as each new sicko was added to the brain collection. Sybil was taking them over, not the other way around. It seemed to me that they no longer had the power to decide anything anymore as individuals. They could only function collectively at the behest of Sybil as a system.

And as for Makishima, they were protecting him the same way a fattened turkey is protected until right before thanksgiving. I think kougami did him a favor by blowing his brains out. Otherwise, his brain, along with his whole sense of self was destined for Sybil's consumption.

I agree with you that the brains didn't seem to mind what had been done to them. But that didn't make it any less abhorrent. No amount of consent by the victims could ever make something like that acceptable. Besides, could we really be sure their moods weren't being artificially cheered up, seeing as how everything else about their continuing existence was extremely unnatural?

This man wins the thread.

[Bakaizer]

1. the brains on SIbyl system lack emotion and conscience. .so we can assume that emotion comes from the heart. so if we assume that emotion does lie within the brain of a human being so we can say that the system lacks appropriate judgement and contains flaws. i would rather live in flawed society run by flawed human beings rather than what a seemingly perfect system. the FACT that no matter what kind of machines or programs make, there would be flaws because we OURSELVES, the creators are flawed.

2. choosing someone to become part of the system is simply illogical. being different or having greater amount of intellect is not an appropriate system. humans usually live more based on societal influence (family, friends, colleagues) rather on the law. so if they feel they laws are affecting thier social, economic needs, they intend to destroy it, thus revolutions arise. the law is simply there to avoid intentions that what society thinks "its wrong". some intellectual people ignores what a typical society want. so HIRING A SUPER-INTELLIGENT KILLER is definitely not appropriate.

3. sacrificing someone for the sake of society clearly doens't help. ASK YOURSELF if your A RELATIVE, FRIEND, LOVER OR FAMILY of the onethe one being sacrificed. if Kagari's family knew died for the sake of not revealing the Sibyl system do you think they would be ignorant? its not always about the majority. its about handling the LESSER ONES can a society prove its worth.


4 Change takes time , so i agree with the ending but, Akane to give in to the system, she has become weak.

5. destroying the system would definitely cause problems to society, but reformation or systematic change would be appropriate as long as IT SHOULD NEGATE INAPPROPRIATE actions/ policies, such as killing Kagari for the sake of keeping the secrets.

6. so whats the point of having a sexual scene of Yayoi/Shion at the end of the anime in its relevance to the story without having no clear picture of their relationship. and also both of thier characters lack development. more like nonsense

7 . in a saying that every story has its ending the anime suggest that we should imagine what would happen next, rather create a new season for an appropriate closure

8. even if Sybil reveals itself it doesn't solve the fact that their is a repression and problems that occur in society. Sybil is consider a closed system and not open ENOUGH to accept human intuition, despite the fact that they are willing to change

9 Sybil system considers humans as weak, with the intention of killing them if the levels are high. since humans have the capacity to change even if they act like animals or psychopaths, there is no doubt the it is still possible to change them

[kco143]

Originally Posted by Bakaizer

6. so whats the point of having a sexual scene of Yayoi/Shion at the end of the anime in its relevance to the story without having no clear picture of their relationship. and also both of thier characters lack development. more like nonsense

I actually knew about their relationship from the very beginning of the show, because you are given a brief hint of it in I believe the first or second episode. When Akane is walking into Shion's lab, Yayoi appears in the doorway and stares at her for a moment, giving Shion enough time to put her pants back on. It's only shown for about a second, so I'm sure most people probably missed it.

With that in mind, when Yayoi shows fondness towards that other female rocker, its easy to assume that she probably has feelings for her, which further shows us viewers Yayoi's sexual preference.

[Chiaki_chan]

Originally Posted by kco143

I actually knew about their relationship from the very beginning of the show, because you are given a brief hint of it in I believe the first or second episode. When Akane is walking into Shion's lab, Yayoi appears in the doorway and stares at her for a moment, giving Shion enough time to put her pants back on. It's only shown for about a second, so I'm sure most people probably missed it.

With that in mind, when Yayoi shows fondness towards that other female rocker, its easy to assume that she probably has feelings for her, which further shows us viewers Yayoi's sexual preference.

I am one of the people who noticed and I think he'll think it was good to see 'more' of these 'little detail, however small have barely noticed. '

But I think it is like its because we must not forget this anime is not a "yuri" and these two: Yayoi and Shion are "secondary" characters

[GDiddy]

Originally Posted by kco143

I actually knew about their relationship from the very beginning of the show, because you are given a brief hint of it in I believe the first or second episode. When Akane is walking into Shion's lab, Yayoi appears in the doorway and stares at her for a moment, giving Shion enough time to put her pants back on. It's only shown for about a second, so I'm sure most people probably missed it.

With that in mind, when Yayoi shows fondness towards that other female rocker, its easy to assume that she probably has feelings for her, which further shows us viewers Yayoi's sexual preference.

....it was pretty obvious that Yayoi was a lesbian in that episode That episode with the girl rocker confirmed it even more.

Maybe we'll finally find out what happened to that chick in season two?